http://www.prophecynews.co.uk/
It’s very difficult to know exactly what will happen next. There are two major prophecies which have still to come to pass.
1) The Gog Magog war of Ezekiel 38-39 has yet to be fulfilled. This war will involve all the nations now uniting themselves against Israel. Israel’s relations with Turkey have deteriorated particularly rapidly over the past few months.
2) On the other hand we have the seven year covenant of Daniel 9:26. And there is no doubt that preparations are already being made for its fulfilment, with the nations of the world now debating the division of Jerusalem.
Comment by Adamantine:
What bothers me the most is that this UK ministry appears to be among all of the others that refuses to even comment on the seven year ENPI. This is a huge wrong on some level. I do not understand it. Even if wrong the singular quality of the seven year ENPI requires commentary even by those who would disagree with it.
UNSEALED PROPHECY 
Unless of course they simply don’t know about it. I wouldn’t have if not for Herb Peters.
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I know Chris Perver used to keep his eye on JS and the ENP, but after the “failed” midpoint in 2010 he as well as Ted Montgomery and FP posters like Eschologizer wrote the theory off as failed. It looks like we are only a select few who is stubborn enough to watch it out until the end of the ENP.
Are we stubborn or foolish? Time will tell, but I am sticking to what I believe looks like a confirmed covenant for 7 years.
Wickus
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Adamantine,
I think that I know where you got your resources on this….and I absolutely have to agree. It appears as if this same UK Ministry has a bias opinion as far as End Time prophecy is concerned. I personally know that the “Chris Pever’s” UK blog is a Pre-Tribulation thought process believing entity. I further pray that with all of the insight, and intellectual comments that comes from that particular site is not biased. I hope that it is not based on preconceived ideas – and with the audience that it has, that they will come to the understanding to “print” ALL information that comes forth; meaning ALL truthful information that concerns the Return of Christ – without any preconceived ideas.
I would also like to say that it is very easy to print, and subsequently give mouth to the apparent biblical events that relate to the 2nd Coming of Christ, based on the very events that are happening in our World today. One could easily support a Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory, based on the facts that events seem to be set up according to their views; in that certain events; such as economic turmoil; natural disasters; wars; rumors of wars; and the fact that God, and/or a standard of Religion, has been taken out of what this Country, and the World has primarily been founded upon – an thus the need for a “False Messiah” to arise to solve the World’s problems.
But we who are better informed; know that there must first come a “falling away”; and the “revelation of the coming Antichrist”; in order for our gathering unto Him is to occur.
It bothers me that we have those who have preconceived ideas about the Rapture of the Church – will subsequently leave out “matters” and “details” that support the fact(s) that we are indeed living in the last days; and the coming Antichrist will be revealed prior to any meeting of Christ in the Clouds.
Let’s pray for our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, who see signs – that they may use better discernment in relaying the news; so that the ENTIRE Body of Christ is Edified.
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Comment by Adamantine:
Mr Baldy. I appreciate you and your take on things.
It is others unwillingness to discuss that has me the most concerned about the spiritual health of so many ministries. I have not seen even one say anything about why the ENPI theory is incorrect. This despite the appearance that it must be wrong by those who expected a midpoint acceleration. I discovered Herb Peters in January 2007 and was shocked to see the front page of the ENPI with its seven years delineated on the front page. THE WHOLE THEORY OF THE DARBYITES, PLYMOUTH BRETHREN AS FURTHER EXPANDED BY DALLAS THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY MAY BE PROVEN WRONG BUT TO IGNORE THE ONLY SEVEN YEAR TREATY WHICH INCLUDES ISRAEL IN ALL OF HISTORY IS A WRONG OF AMAZING PROPORTIONS.
I have done nearly everything possible to get a few of these other ministries to take a look and comment and they will not. Herb Peters used to be apologetic for these others who apparently did not see what he saw but after this period of time I find that more difficult to do the same.
It is our responsibility to watch to the “bitter” end of 2013 no matter how this works out. We someday will have the responsibility to say on these very pages
1) The ENPI is incorrect as a vehicle of prophecy
or
2) The ENPI is correct as a vehicle of prophecy
We will someday know the answer to that question and it is an important question because the question has not arisen in a vacuum but rather at a time of apostasy when the church accepts evil as good, Israel struggles for a place in the world and Jerusalem is a cup of trembling, the EU is now spoken of needing to accelerate further Union and when JS still runs with the captains and kings of the world.
We are frail Christians who see through a glass darkly.
It is exceedingly strange that
1) Some Prophecy watchers will pretend not to see the ENPI
2) That part of the Church at large might reverse on the historic Christian understanding and now normalize sins such as abortion and homosexuality
There are many good things these other Christians say and do but these two beggar my imagination.
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I share your concern Adamantine. About 2 weeks ago I’ve send someone in the “watchman” ministry a complete outline of the from 1995 to current on the ENP and JS. I was expecting some debate form his side, but his only answer back was: “Thanks for sharing this with me, but I still think BHO is the antichrist.
Now I ask you, how foolish and blind must you be to overlook all this evidence and go on with the unsupported theory that BHO is the man?
At other times I had discussions with a prominent teacher of the Muslim AC theory. Again after giving him all the evidence, this guy was more eager to proof to me his theory. He could not proof it wrong. Nobody could so far. The theory will die on its own in 2013 if it is wrong. We have just over 2 years, so things will have to speed up. But the way the economy is in shambles and the pressure is on Israel, I don’t think we will be disappointed.
Wickus
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Great comments guys,
I must say that even if the ENP(I) theory proves out to be wrong, at least it has brought together members of the Body of Christ by way of watching together, and studying His Word.
What bothers me the most about those who have rejected this theory outright, is that they have failed to look at all of the evidence, and have discarded this theory because they have expected to SEE what Scripture has indicated will happen.
I guess it’s just hard for me to ignore “facts”. With the World being in the situation that it is now, it really blows my mind that we have students of Bible Prophecy that continue to ignore as Adamantine states:
“TO IGNORE THE ONLY SEVEN YEAR TREATY WHICH INCLUDES ISRAEL IN ALL OF HISTORY IS A WRONG OF AMAZING PROPORTIONS.”
Well said!
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1) The ENPI is incorrect as a vehicle of prophecy
or
2) The ENPI is correct as a vehicle of prophecy
What KIND of “vehicle” will be known I think.
There are many examples of repetitious, shadow, dual or layered and what can be understood as DECOY or diversionary KINDS of prophetic “vehicles”.
I believe it is of the “diversionary” sort.
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Hi Shorty,
The ENP(I) may very will be “diversionary”, as you put it, I don’t believe that you will find anyone here that will deny that. The problem lies where we have those who automatically dismiss it as a possibility, because they have expected to “SEE” things that have been written in Scripture, as it correlates with the 7 year Covenant that the coming Antichrist will confirm – and that by a certain time frame.
I mean think about it……. here the entire World is at this point and time, facing an economic melt down like it has never experienced before in it’s history.Then we have unexplained animal life dying; droughts; earthquakes; famine; wars; sexual immorality; greed and hatred at levels never seen before; and society as a whole denying God. And all of this is occurring at a time where we have a 7 year “confirmed” Covenant with Many – to include Israel; done by a man associated with the number 666.
I must say, that if this is “diversionary” – and it may be; then what will the actual deal look like?
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i appreciate everyone’s comments very much. i tend to think like tribber. there are many layers to this thing but whether the pieces are put together yet or not-i see the pieces on the table-and coming together quickly. we are not watching in vain as i believe many are choosing to do. what they are watching for is not clear to me because what is clear is that there is a 7 year treaty in play now that if it is not the actual is then for certain it’s precursor as actual groundwork to be built upon (“new and improved”?)….what will it look like??? i believe we will have that certainty soon-and the person we have watched for this lengthy time will show his hand coming out of the shadows proving once and for all who he is or is not in this scheme. nobody-but nobody has been the persistent permanent fixture that he has-that trail is long and his fingerprints are on everything-but most notably his dealing with israel and the current policy before us to watch. there is tooooo much the scripture has revealed by way of current worldwide policies and persons/person of power holding the world hostage with their devices not to take so lightly as many “watchers” are want to do. yes. pray for them and for our continued vigilance to keep the scriptures as our focus. we wait on the Lord and it will be worth the wait.
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I must say, that if this is “diversionary” – and it may be; then what will the actual deal look like?
I can tell you what it “look”ED “like”………IMO
The first part of it is past tense and already fulfilled by Christ….IMO…..and what the rest of it is going to “look like” is going to shock the entire world, including we who have our confidence in God .
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Just for the record the verse Chris should have referenced is Daniel 9:27 and not verse 26
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I have been reading your posts for a few years now. I think the theory to be less likely to be correct today than I did a few years ago. I still think it possible to pan out as you describe, but I must say I doubt it at this point. I would encourage you to keep watching. I would also encourage you to try to understand that many of those who disagree with you are just as informed as you are. I find your comments to be insightful, honest, and well thoughtout. However, I don’t believe you are better informed than those who disagree with you. I also don’t think those that disagree with you have simply failed to look at the evidence as you have. I appreciate all you guys are doing. If it turns out that Herb was wrong and you are wrong, so be it. God is still true. If it turns out that this theory is right, so be it. In the end, all truth is God’s truth. Truth and time go hand in hand. In time, the truth will come out. Keep studying.
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nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree….but being outright dismissed by others who say they are watching yet will not respond or even hear another view in the light of such a big subject is just kinda sad. so…i just move on-no biggie. that happens to me and i’m not alone…and yes we will keep studying and sharing. there is much to glean from one another. i sure appreciate unsealed and others that are not of the opinion that they have cornered all the truth but are also not afraid to really delve into subjects that are on the radar screen of these last of the last days. among those watching some are-as pointed out in another section-more the simeons and annas of our day-others not so much. whatever. romans 3:3 the Lord is revealing His Word to all those whose heart is to take Him at His Word that we may have all the light we need in these dark times.
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Comment by Adamantine:
To Steve:
I agree with you that some who think this theory wrong are very well informed!!!!
Yes!!
The problem is that people like Hal Lindsey who are well informed will not discuss it on any of their sites. At Least I have not seen it.
I think they need to say why and how to the world on their sites, I believe it is too interesting and persuasive to be ignored.
It is not as if we are saying the tooth fairy is the AC.
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Comment by Adamantine:
To Steve:
I agree with you that some who think this theory wrong are very well informed!!!!
Yes!!
The problem is that people like Hal Lindsey who are well informed will not discuss it on any of their sites. At Least I have not seen it.
I think they need to say why and how to the world on their sites, I believe it is too interesting and persuasive to be ignored.
It is not as if we are saying the tooth fairy is the AC.
I also think it less likely than I did in 2007.
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Well shorttribber, let me just say to you that your name is also divisionary to the ones who still claim that the tribulation is the full 7 year period, if I remember correctly. You, as I do believe the great tribulation which Jesus referred to is the 31/2 years of the antichrist reign on earth, not a full 7 years as those who believe they will be caught up before any of it comes. So to me this is why they cannot believe a 7 year treaty could happen while they are still here. That is my honest opinion, so if they do not discuss it should not surprise us that much. Because for the most part those taught in the churches of America have always been taught pretrib and nothing else until recently some have come out, but not many. And now I see that there are some even trying to say that the falling away, is actually referring to the rapture. So as far as I am concerned, we just continue to post what we see the bible actually says without twisting it all around, and comparing it to jewish weddings, which as far as my research tells me is a bunch of junk and is not biblical anyways. Now not saying some jewish traditional things do this the bridegroom comes, snatches away the bride, then they spend 7 days shut away, but it is not biblical in any way that I can read in my bible.
Consider the wedding of Cana,, or the marriage the word says,
Joh 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
Joh 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
.
Does this indicate to any of you that the bridegroom whisked the bride away to a shut up place for 7 days, which they use, especially I think it is Perry Stone’s teachings.
Read your own bibles people, read your own bibles everyone has one in their hands today at least in America I am sure.
Sorry at times I cannot contain myself that some of these ideas that they have used to continue to argue the point hold no water, or wine for me.
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as far as Hal Lindsay and other well known prophecy scholars who just ignore this theory goes,…no matter what their credentials, they are still just fallen people, with quirks, idiosyncresies, and whims…and they are all to some extent, subject to the persuasions of the little man within.,..Not to mention their EGO, or did i already make mention of that? Ego’s that are so entirely connected to their set of pre-suppositions that defined who they are, or were, or still are,.. stuck in= stubborn-ness = bondage./// God only knows?? but i remember Orwells quote, about the prestigious folk of high status in their powerful positions, being driven by the same irrational drives as the bullies in the schoolyard.///// born men,…re-born men, its just plain hard to be an integrity filled human being, but we like to imagine otherwise.Thats one way to look at it,…who knows? I mean then theres Satan, powers and principalities, rulers of darkness….i-yi-yi!…Let us have no mercy for the little man within!
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you must have posted while i was busy typing Romalynnstar,.. i appreciate what you said, cause i wonder about stuff like that and get all excited./// also, i sometimes wonder if the Global Elite Beast, Occult Apparatus Monster, plays with our heads,..something along the lines of evil-genius at work putting the 666 Solana ENP 7 yr plan into motion to wear us down! WHAT A THING TO BELIEVE ,../. and it goes deeper … steep into the deep. are they smarter than we give them credit for? i find this interesting to ponder, but not to worry about, simply because greater is HE……,you know the versr
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To echo what others have been saying, I’m very disappointed that most people when they hear about the particular theory we are following simply dismiss it out of hand. The look I get is, well I’m pre-trib and this doesn’t fit with that paradigm – so sorry but I won’t even look at it.
Maybe it’s my pride, maybe its 39 years of feeling like I was the smartest guy in the room, maybe it’s my political science education, or maybe I’m just a baby christian who’s grasping at anything that points to the soon return of our savior – I desperately want to get out of this place and for him to come get us. It’s everything I can do sometimes to keep my mouth closed and not scream in their face “WHAT IF YOU ARE WRONG?????”
I know we might be wrong – and I’ll deal with that when the day comes and I have to acknowledge that it’s going to be longer before he takes us all out of here together, or that I might have to live all the days he gives me and go home indivdually when he calls me.
I just want to figure out a way to get the word out loudly and widely about what we’ve seen – and what it could mean. In a way it’s directly interwoven with our love of Christ and desire to share him with others. I think we all love the church and want to warn her and for the lost tell them – well if you are going to get to know Jesus you’d really better do it right now since we are all rapidly running out of time. To the church – what if all the promises from preachers and so-called prophecy teachers about being snatched away without a final and ultimate set of refining trials and tribulations is completely wrong? How can I lovingly look at my brother or sister and think – you have no idea how incredibly horrible things are about to get for Christians all across the globe (they are already bad enough for Christians in most of the globe that it ought to have gotten their attention) and I’m not going to try to warn you.
I’ve got to think and pray about this – what to do next. This particular theory may fail – but so much is happening in the world right now that I feel like we’re walking through a proverbial alpine valley with slopes full to bursting with prophetic snow and ice- and an angel is about to yodel.
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an angel is fixin to take and yodel, why i’ll be john brown, by gollie! i’m gonna git me some tickets fer that, i’ll tell you what. now that there really is gonna be a gooden. i’m makin’ way to yodel dot calm right here n now. maybe there’ll be a rooster or two out there just a crowin’ to beat the dickins, by jigger! i’m gonna tune my banja up fer this one! i don’t care if in i am missin’ a string or two!//// all kiddin’ and funnin’ aside,… try good old fashion intercessory prayer for all those loved ones and leave the rest to the Father, son and Holy Spirit!, blessings to you, just a sheep. we’ll all take n pray it up to get her, whoops i mean together!, sincerely, tony
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what i’m was tryin’ to say on that mis-spell is, ” we’ll get ‘er done!”, thru the Son, JESUS…. some call Him Yashua! remember HE IS the KING of kings! nothing like casting our burdens upon Him in obedience to His instructions. in Christ, toe
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…also, a few posts ago, when i said let us have no mercy for the little man within,..i meant the one within ourselves
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Romalyn ” You, as I do believe the great tribulation which Jesus referred to is the 31/2 years of the antichrist reign on earth, not a full 7 years as those who believe they will be caught up before any of it comes.”
Remember though ….I see the first 3.5 as historic
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hi, just wanted to give a Big YES to what Steve said earlier,… that exactly what i mean when i quote the words of that Cat Stevens song,..” and everything is emptying,…into WHITE”////you can’t stop the flow of truth,…like, you can’t stop running water, and you can’t kill THE FIRE THAT BURNS INSIDE!////….We must be Strong and Fearless!, counting on help from above, and TRUSTING the power of God’s Love.
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…this is where the rubber meets the road
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Shorty,
Your comments have made me think. It appears as if we have those who still want to divide a 7 year time period into two 3.5 years – and I cannot find that this can be supported with Scripture.
Let me explain…….
The only 7 year anything that relates to the End Times is the Covenant with Many that is confirmed by the Antichrist. Scripture does not indicate how long the Tribulation period is, but we know that 3.5 years are given to the coming Antichrist to reign. So to say that Christ has fulfilled the “first 3.5 years as historic” – well, honestly, I don’t know that that can be supported with Scripture; even if we were to look at the remaining week that hasn’t been fulfilled.
As I have been studying this, I began to think that if there has been a time that information as it relates to the Return of Christ can be stopped (Church Age) – then why are Believers still dividing this final week into two 3.5 year periods?
Scripture seems to indicate that a Covenant with Many will be confirmed for a period of 7 years – which is continious. If this is continious, and the A0D is named in conjunction with it, then we may have two separate events going on here. Meaning that the Covenant with Many is not the start of the final 7 years – but serves as a marker to point to the time in which the A0D is about to be performed, and the final week is about to start.
We know from Scripture that the Antichrist will have 3.5 years to reign. I am suggesting that once the A0D is performed, that it is what starts the final week. We now have 1,290 days and 1,335 days respectively – which includes the cessation of sacrifice (in the “midst” of the confirmed Covenant w/ Many), the A0D, and the Return of Christ. The Millennial Reign of Christ is counted as “one day” even though it is a literal 1,000 year Reign. The time that Satan is “let loose” for a “little season” is also counted into the final week time frame.
The final week then ends after Christ has Ruled & Reigned for 1,000 years; Satan sets up his final rebellion; and then the final gog/magog war ushers in the Great White Throne Judgement. At this point Christ declares “it is done” – which is indicative of Him putting the final enemy which is to be destroyed; which is death. He then turns the Kingdom over to God the Father – so that God will be all in all.
I know that this view may not be popular – but I am taking into account that the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. No one knows the day or the hour of His Return. I am further suggesting that most Christians won’t have a clue as to what is going on – because they will be looking for a “sign”; and not paying attention to what is actually going on. The Lord’s Return will be suddenly, and without warning to those who aren’t watching, or preparing to “see” something to give them a sign.
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Baldy wrote….
The only 7 year anything that relates to the End Times is the Covenant with Many that is confirmed by the Antichrist. Scripture does not indicate how long the Tribulation period is, but we know that 3.5 years are given to the coming Antichrist to reign. So to say that Christ has fulfilled the “first 3.5 years as historic” – well, honestly, I don’t know that that can be supported with Scripture; even if we were to look at the remaining week that hasn’t been fulfilled.
There is much more “scripture” to support “THE Covenant with MANY” by Christ than you realize I think.
The idea of a antichrist making a seven year treaty/A covenant with Israel came about the same time along with John Nelson Darbyism/Strict Disdensationalism/Pre-tribism.
Historically with very few exceptions those who spent unimaginably long hours in the study of God’s Word arrived at, based on VERY STRONG scriptural support, Christ being the One Who “CONFIRMED”……..THE…..not……A…..Covenant with MANY.
I have a Bible printed in 1819 that within it’s commentary of Daniel 9:27 it has some amazing and very accurate words describing how plainly and openly God has proven His Word so wonderfully in that text as it pertains to the ultimate sacrifice.
I can’t cut and paste it……..I can’t find it on line anywhere………..I’ve been tempted to type it out before….i’m type like a snail so it will take some time but I feel it must be done.
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do it tribber! God Love Ya!
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Love ya too bro….give me a call…..I’ll read it to ya!
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Mr. Baldy, God Love ya, too! i love this topic. i will try to listen and keep my mouth shut for a while…wish me luck. i’m going to breathe deep. i hope i don’t all of a SUDDEN GET THIS FEELIN’ LIKE I KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT WHATS GOING ON , AGAIN. down tony, down boy. Mr. Baldy you have a sharp mind! also, i believe tribber has got something of great value to offer here!!!, can’t wait!
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I would like to explain something also before I type what I earlier mentioned.
There is a prevailing idea about the fulfillment of the seventy weeks was this way or that way, historic or future, ect. ect……….and there are those like me who understand it as part historic and part future.
What i’ll share next most or all of you may have never heard.
Try to get a grasp of this now and follow it through without automatically discarding it due to deeply entrenched and fortified ideas as though YOUR ideas are as a WALLED CITY.
1. The “covenant with many”……….who are the many?
Answer: Israel.
2. Who is Israel?
Answer: Israel………they who “BY FAITH” are natural branches AND they who are “BY FAITH” are grafted in to the natural branches.
3. What “covenant” was/will be “confirmed?
Answer: the Abrahamic covenant………THE EVERLASTING covenant.
4. Is not the New Covenant “THE EVERLASTING Covenant”?
Answer: Yes it is, and it is EVERLASTING………….because……….God first ordained it TO BE EVERLASTING when He CONFIRMED it in CHRIST…………BEFORE the Law of Moses.
5. Was the Old Covenant PART of the Abrahamic Covenant?
Answer: Yes……but it was temporary and SERVED to CONFIRM the truth of God’s Words of Cursing and Blessing, Disobedience and Obedience, Faithfulness and Faithlessness, Pride and Humility, Receiving and Rejecting, Sharing or Greed, Hate and Love……and on and on.
cont. more to come
6. When did or when will Christ “co
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OOps that last partial sentance was ended abruptly due to my three year old making our bathroom sink overflow!!!!! I’m back ….this is going to be added piece by piece.
Hang in there
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6. When did or when will Christ “confirm THE covenant with MANY”?
Answer: During His ministry, after His ministry………AND……soon it seems.
7. Did He “confirm The covenant” with only the faithful many ?
Answer: No, He also “confirmed THE covenant” with MANY who were unfaithful, rebellious,greedy and sinful who rejected Him.
Now here is where I think so many misunderstand just what Christ did to CONFIRM the WILL and PROMISE of His Father.
For…………..7………………SEVEN years Christ Tried to gather unbelieving Israel under His wings as He also had tried before their FIRST personal VISITATION. I say Seven years because of His 3.5 year personal ministry and 3.5 year reaching out to unrepentant Israel after His ascension by the Apostles up until the stoning of Stephen.
Seven years He tried to call unbelieving Israel to repentance……..but they “would Not”!
Seven years!
“There is not one direct scripture that PROVES Christ ministered for exactly 3.5 years”, that’s the argument I’ve heard…….true………but there IS……..MUCH….evidence of it.
Now, Could not Christ have CONFIRMED God’s Word, Promise and Covenant to the UNBELIEVING…….”MANY” in the past by PROVING and CONFIRMING that disobedience, sin, rejection of Christ and rebellion against Him ends in a curse and DESOLATION? And can it not also be so that He WILL YET “confirm” that obedience and Faith ends with ETERNAL LIFE?
This possibility finds it’s reality in layered prophecy wherein He can Prove His Word to the unbelieving and the Believing Natural branches…..and also the unbelieving and believing Gentiles who would be grafted in during the Church Age until the gathering of the saints.
Yes….there is even more evidence that Christ did “confirm” FOR…7…years and eternal covenant
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Yes…there is more evidence that Christ did, “confirm”….FOR….7 years….THE EVERLASTING Covenant.
The last sentence in the post above got buried in the bottom of the posting widow…..but this is how the sentence was to have read.
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The Covenant with Abraham ……. envelopes….. ALL ……other covenants that have followed, ie The Mosaic covenant (the Law), the Davidic covenant, the land covenant…..AND…..the New covenant in Christ.
Read the first words of Daniels prayer in Daniel 9………………as He addresses God as The One Who Keeps The Covenant…………….AND ………….MERCY. He certainly has and He just as certainly will.
In context………….the One Who keeps The Covenant…….and……MERCY……is prophesied to come in answer to Daniels prayer.
And the One Who “keeps the covenant” comes to “CONFIRM” it.
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Shorty….let me say this,
As I’ve stated before you may have something as to your 3.5 year time frame, and I’ll even go as far as saying that some of the events that are prophesied to happen have already been fulfilled within this same time period of 70 weeks.
But the week that that the Antichrist confirms the Covenant with the Many has not. I will stand very firm on this. A 1819 “commentary” of the Bible is not sufficient enough to me to dare say that it alone bares proof that Christ has fulfilled what the very plain reading of Scripture indicates that the coming Antichrist will do. And this has nothing to do with whatever eschatological belief one may have concerning the Rapture of the Church – I don’t care what anyone’s “comments” are about. The very plain reading of Scripture is good enough for me.
(Shorty, this is in no means to sound mean spirited whatsoever).
In closing, until one can show me that the final 7 years of this 70 week time period is divided into two equal halves – then I will continue to look for the A0D as my starting point – especially now that I have seen that we have a “confirmed” Covenant with Many; to include the Nation of Israel – by way of the ENP(I); and a man associated with the number 666; who is to “remain hidden”, until his appointed time. Not to mention the other factors …….such as the World Wide economic crisis that we face, earthquakes, famine, wars, threats of war, and the apparent Revived Roman Empire coming alive……..must I go on?
Nevertheless….I’m just saying that this ENP(I) theory has WAY too much evidence just to ignore.
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I have also said i do not “ignore ” the ENP……I see it as a diversion from the greater meaning of 9:27…………very sad that it is working.
I would not consider a commentary by anyone proof of anything either, I never said it was.
I do not agree that a coming antichrist ever has or ever will confirm “THE” covenant referred to in 9:27……that is to address the primary or greater meaning of the prophecy…although as I said I do believe God CAN and possibly has allowed such to occur in the past.
We will just agree to disagree until the AOD I guess……..because after that we will agree.
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What a awesome discussion guys thank-you.
I think the general consensus is that we will WAIT for the ” when ye shall see” and the “he that readeth let him understand” AOD as the starting point of the 42 month ( only ) tribulation.
Mr B I promise to send you a e-mail discussion Wickus and I had about this in ’07 when a prayer partner and I sought the Lord to show us what would be the EVENT that triggered this off. Now only are we able to have that ” aha” moment that the Lord was trying to show us….but some of us are a littl slow ya know 🙂
On record I need to say that we were ,,,errr a littl distracted by the counting of the days of the ENPI last year and for me it was a major test to see who would stand.It sure has caused many to fall away which is very sad I might add 😦 It has also been an amazing opportunity for us to dig deeper into His word and to grow stronger in faith. It sure has matured me in so many other areas of my life and has shown me how to discern , detect and avoid very dangerous distractions that the enemy used..you fill in the blanks as I believe we have all seen that 🙂
Okay carry on ………..
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If you look at a Hebrew interlinear bible I think you will find it reads like the ESV version. ” And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.” Dan. 9:27
If I am correct, the “one who makes desolate” , is not the same person as the “He” who “shall confirm the covenant with many” !!! This is a difficult section to translate, but if we take it in its context, we find the subject of primary focus of this section of scripture is Messiah the Prince. And so it would follow that He is the subject of v 27, while the antichrist is the “one” who makes desolate. (In fact the antichrist, is not the subject of any verse leading up to verse 27, rather he is the object of the preposition in v. 26, and even here he is merely a descriptive adjective describing the people who will destroy the city and sanctuary. )
This would explain why the first 69 weeks starts with the FIRST decree of Artaxerxes in 457 b.c. and ends in 27 ad at the beginning of Messiahs ministry. (remember there was one year from 1bc to 1ad). He confirmed the covenant with grace and truth Jn.1 and signs and wonders for 3 1/2 years. And finally with his blood Heb.10 !!!
So the 69th week ended at the BEGINNING of Messiahs ministry, not the END of his testimony.
So there remains only 3 1/2 years of the 70th week, during which He will resume (through the two prophets of Rev 11) his ministry to confirm the covenant ( not through grace and truth this time, but through judgement !!! )
Starting the 69 weeks at this FIRST decree of Artaxerxes makes a lot more sense to me than trying to make the second decree in 444 b.c. fit in. (That leads you to 39 a.d. and requires some mathematical gymnastics to make it end at Messiahs triumphal entry,)
All you have to do is read Ezra 7 carefully and its clear this could easily be ” the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem “. ( Note especially the authority the King granted them to restore the city… )
One other thought… notice the 70 years Daniel was focused on at the beginning of Daniel chapter 9. God used THAT 70 to get Daniels attention. Then He introduced Daniel to ANOTHER 70 that was the ultimate fulfillment of his prophetic plan for his peoples redemption.
I have been wondering if the 7 year European Neighborhood Policy was something He used to get OUR attention, so we wouldn’t be taken by surprise by the abomination of desolation !!!
Anyway, this is how I see it , for what it’s worth. Over and out.
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Amen Paul
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Dearest Paul……..
Let me show you where you apparently seem to contradict yourself. You state:
“If I am correct, the “one who makes desolate” , is not the same person as the “He” who “shall confirm the covenant with many” !!! This is a difficult section to translate, but if we take it in its context, we find the subject of primary focus of this section of scripture is Messiah the Prince. And so it would follow that He is the subject of v 27, while the antichrist is the “one” who makes desolate. (In fact the antichrist, is not the subject of any verse leading up to verse 27, rather he is the object of the preposition in v. 26, and even here he is merely a descriptive adjective describing the people who will destroy the city and sanctuary.)”
Please forgive me for saying this, but your statement in describing Daniel 9:26-27 is a bunch of mumbo-jumbo nonsense.
I will agree that in the beginning the subject of the text is Messiah the Prince – but then Scripture “qualifies” it’s meaning by stating that the “people of the prince who it to come”; which is TOTALLY separate from Messiah the Prince. These two may interchange activities. Meaning Messiah the Prince is the One who will have brought and end to sacrifice, but nevertheless, the one who “confirms” the Covenant with the Many is none other than the Antichrist.The very plain reading of Scripture bears this fact.
Now to show where you apparently contradict yourself, is that you state that the “Antichrist is not the subject of any verse”; then the mumbo-jumbo, and further contradiction, comes in where you state “even here he is merely a descriptive adjective”. Pure and utter NONSENSE.
The fact of the matter is that you have brought something to my attention (at least); that there is interchangeable activity between Christ, and the coming Antichrist as it relates to Daniel 9:26-27. That alone bears recognition, because it really helps one to understand that as far as the rule and reign of the coming Antichrist – that there only remains a 3.5 year period. This I will agree upon.
Now as far as the requirements mentioned in Daniel 9:24, and how it relates to the 70th week – then I would have to say again, that further study needs to be looked into this matter; as the Millennial Reign of Christ must be considered – as death, sin, and rebellion will still be present; even during Christ’s Earthly Reign, and will not become complete until Christ has destroyed all enemies. The LAST enemy to be destroyed is “death” when Christ will have completed His Earthly Reign, and subsequently hands the completed product back over to God the Father, so that God may be all in all. This can be found in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 – which in my very humble opinion will have completed the final week.
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” which in my very humble opinion ”
This is an awkward statement after calling another student of prophecy’s opinion “mumbo Jumbo”.
Unless of course you are be completely facetious.
We know that What should be considered and valued as, at the very least respected Commentators such as Mathew Poole, Mathew Henry, William Lowth, Adam Clark, Albert Barnes and on and on to include many more may have somewhat more to offer in their analysis of Daniel 9:26-27 than “Mumbo-Jumbo” or “Nonsense”.
Seems you value your opinion somewhat highly rather than with humility compared to the above mentioned ignorant fellows.
Sorry if that is blunt but calling another Bible students opinion “mumbo-Jumbo” or “Nonsense” seems unnecessarily disrespectful and unfriendly.
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A new look @ Daniel 9:27…..really!
by shorttribber on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:20 pm
“Not again”! you may say………….we’ve been under that old barn hunt’n eggs forever and for the most part we all come out with the same ole eggs……….true but not in every case.
I want to focus on something completely different about it……only one portion of it mainly.
here is the best word for word i could find from Hebrew directly into English of the section for discussion.
and upon as wings (3671)abominations(8251)desolation/astonishment (8074) even until (5704) end (3617) and that decreed (2782) shall outpour (5413) on the desolator (8074)
It is quite well known that this is a very obscure portion of scripture and has been translated or rather I should say interpreted many different ways.
But why really in light of this passage?
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
Mathew 23
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that ………….killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee(abomination8251), how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her]…………….. wings………(as wings3671)……………, and ye ………..would not!…………(abomination8074)
38 Behold(astonishment8074), your house is…… left unto you (and that decreed2782)……..(even until5704)desolate.
39 For I say unto you,(decreed2782)……… Ye shall not see me henceforth, ………..till……….(even until5704) ye shall say, Blessed [is]………. he that cometh(shall outpour on the desolator) in the name of the Lord.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
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Cont………………: A new look @ Daniel 9:27…..really!
by shorttribber on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:29 pm
Now i know that who the “He” is makes or breaks what all believe about 9:27……but I just want to ask what justification there has been to add so many interpretive extra words into what was never part of the known Hebrew text……..
Other than of course to interpret rather than translate, which is what most of the modern Bible versions demonstrate.
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Cont……………………A new look @ Daniel 9:27…..really!
by shorttribber on Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:45 pm
Jesus decreed the desolation……they who killed the prophets are the desolators and abominators along with all unbelievers and their future head, the Loser antichrist.Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
Did the desolators gather under His wings or did they place abomination/astonishment upon His outstretched wings?
Did they place a blasphemous crown upon His head….did they place nails in his outstretched wings……was not the abominations of the entire world placed on Him?
Sure He allowed so willingly………….but………..it was still placed upon Him.
He was rejected and slain and abomination upon His wings…………..because they would not be gathered to Him.
And still they reject Him………..until their gathering………even until the END.
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Hi Shorty,
Let me begin by saying if one is willing to dish something out, then they may as well be willing to take it also. Now in saying that, I absolutely LOVE someone being “blunt” with me – I would perfer it no other way, even to the point of “appearing” sarcastic.
Let me also say that yes, I do attack people’s opinions (ask Adamantine) :), but it’s never out of disrespect. Please feel free to attack any of my opinions – I welcome it! Remember it’s a person’s opinions, and NOT the person themselves – unless a personal attack has come to me, and trust me, I will defend myself to the very end. It’s just my personality – and for that I offer no appology to any man. I’ve been a tuff guy all of my life. Now I hope to be a tuff guy for Christ. If one cannot handle their “opinions” being attacked, and they become all soft, mushy, and personally offended – then how will they stand when their very lives are on the line for being persecuted for their witness, or testimony for Christ? Will they cave in and give into the demands of the World? Will they cry? If so, I have no tissue for them.
Nevertheless, I will apologize if someone takes me attacking their opinions personal, as I understand that not everyone has “tough skin” as I do. I will also apologize for “appearing” to come across, unkind, or unfriendly – as this is NEVER my intention.
To answer your other comment, I must say that yes, I do think very highly of my opinions – one must not be timid when they are passionate about what they believe in, even if their opinions are WRONG.
Christ is establishing His Church – and He needs Soldiers and Warriors! Christian men and women who are willing to take a stand for what they believe in – that being HIM. I do have to be honest and say that I can’t stand political correctness; a people pleaser; or a middle of the road softy that says and does things so that no one’s feelings are hurt. In saying that I will “qualify” what I mean, and state that I do not condone unsolicited personal attacks as well.
One can absolutely attack one’s opionions, and not be disrespectful towards the person. There is a difference.
In closing, and as I have read what you have written concerning this topic, I can see that you have given this a great deal of thought. I will leave you with this question………
In your studies of Daniel 9:27 – and your thoughts concerning a final 3.5 year period; have you (in your studies) considered how Daniel 12:11-13 may be used in conjunction with Daniel 9:26-27?
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Mr B you said ” It’s just my personality – and for that I offer no appology to any man. I’ve been a tuff guy all of my life. Now I hope to be a tuff guy for Christ. If one cannot handle their “opinions” being attacked, and they become all soft, mushy, and personally offended – then how will they stand when their very lives are on the line for being persecuted for their witness, or testimony for Christ? Will they cave in and give into the demands of the World? Will they cry? If so, I have no tissue for them.”
I had to place both of my hands over my mouth as I burst out laughing at this statement.This is exactly how my friends describe me and they love me to death! I hear them say ” ye don’t suffer fools, pansies, fakers, cowards, and least of all you despise the luke- warm fuzzy wuzzy tickle my ears mentality that is part of this end time strong delusional ” church” – ye go colly gurl!” LOL. I refuse to be offended- pride does, eerr get offended right ! BTW who uses the word – “tissue” anyways, when I do people think I’m soft in the head. It’s KLEENEX they say Coll…Kleenex!!! shezzzz get it right already!LOL oh that’s funny!
Off topic but here is a scripture that blessed me this morning that gave me the understanding of why we refuse to be “politically correct ” and to expose the ROOT we see in these very deceptive times 😦
And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which [were] among them:)
Deu 29:18 — Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
Shorttribber we luv ya!
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Thanx for the feedback and explanation of your character and humility….er…sorta..LOL!
It’s all good Bro , I was just jousting too so to speak and just giving honor to whom honor in due respect to those well studied men.
Certainly I can see the similarity in language found in Daniel 9 and 12 but that’s where it ends. The beginning of any analysis of a text should begin though at the beginning of the text and not at the end of it.
In the case of Daniel 12 it is necessary to start even one chapter back at the start of Chapter 11………and then follow the very difficult transition through TIME that occurs at the end of 11(historic and future in nature) to see that similarity in language was IMO one of the TOOLS God used/uses to seal up the “book AND the vision” until the TIME of the end.
In Daniel 9 the Hebrew word for SCRIFICE is used, but in Daniel 12 the Hebrew word for DAILY is used……..I’ve mentioned this on many occasions to those who bring it up but it seems to go largely unnoticed as though it mattered not…..and that my friend is evidence of error and stubbornness to be shown such a glaring difference and then just ignore it.
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Shorttribber we luv ya!
Now I feel all warm-n-fuzzy….got a “tissue”?
What ya think of the lanuage difference between “sacrifice and “daily”, are gonna ignore it along with the others who do?
Or are you going to wheep between the porch and the alter over the stubborness and pride of God’s people as Daniel did?
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Shorttribber I am trying to understand the reason for your question. Was it directed to me and if you knew my personal view on the ” temple” issue you would know that I strongly adhere to us being it! – NAOS. Have held that view for a very long time already as well as strongly belive the dividing of the land is the abomination that causes her desolation.
As Christ is my witness there was not one inch of untruth in my ” we luv ya” comment and meant that from my heart.
And just to clarify as Christ is my witness the scripture was NOT directed towards you.
Is that why the ” Now I feel all warm-n-fuzzy….got a “tissue”?” was shot back?
Will respond as soon as I have more time and after much prayer 🙂
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My bad………No…..I thought you were in defense of the posission that Daniel 9 and 12 spoke of the same “sacrife”.
That was just a joke back, the “warm-n-fuzy”.
I get all of our positions mixed up.
I know you ment it from the heart…….I was just trying to be funny.
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Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
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Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
There is absolutely nothing in the scriptures that says Jesus confirmed any previous covenant with anybody. Abraham was still making sacrifices I do believe, even though he left by faith when called by God, but until the blood of Jesus was shed there could not have been a new better everlasting covenant made.
I am not even sure who I am referring to here who stated this but let me tell you this is a seventh day adventist teaching and perhaps some of the reformers I am not sure at all where it comes from. But I will never buy into it, because the scriptures prove this to not be so.
Yes God knew Jesus would come, he was there at the foundations of the world, but he was not offered by blood sacrifice until he came.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
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Romalyn wrote……
There is absolutely nothing in the scriptures that says Jesus confirmed any previous covenant with anybody. Abraham was still making sacrifices I do believe, even though he left by faith when called by God, but until the blood of Jesus was shed there could not have been a new better everlasting covenant made.
……………………………………………………………………………………….
I am not even sure who I am referring to here who stated this but let me tell you this is a seventh day adventist teaching and perhaps some of the reformers I am not sure at all where it comes from. But I will never buy into it, because the scriptures prove this to not be so.
………………………………………………………………………………………..
I previously wrote this….
4. Is not the New Covenant “THE EVERLASTING Covenant”?
Answer: Yes it is, and it is EVERLASTING………….because……….God first ordained it TO BE EVERLASTING when He CONFIRMED it in CHRIST…………BEFORE the Law of Moses.
And here is the scripture
Gal. 3:
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though [it be] but a man’s covenant, yet [if it be] confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, [that]……….. the covenant,……….. that was ……..confirmed before of God in Christ,…………… the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.
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Gen 15:2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
Gen 15:3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
Gen 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Gen 15:7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
Gen 15:8 And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
Gen 15:9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
Gen 15:10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.
Gen 15:11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
Gen 15:12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
Gen 15:14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
Gen 15:15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
Gen 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
Gen 15:17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Gen 15:19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
Gen 15:20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
Gen 15:21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
Abraham was still required by God to make a blood sacrifice to him. So there is no confirming that covenant
Gen 15:9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
Gen 15:10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.
Gen 15:11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
Gen 15:12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
Yes Abraham had faith but he and his sons all still continued to make blood sacrifices to God.
Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
God did the first sacrifice to cover Adam and Eve to make them coats of skin.
Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
Abel had to shed the blood of his firstlings in order to get the fat, right?
Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
Gen 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
Gen 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Gen 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
Noah had to make sacrifices to God after the flood.
I can see it does not matter what scriptures I post to show exactly what God’s word says.
Yes Abraham came in through faith, not by the law, which is what this says, but he and his children after him were still required to shed blood and make sacrifices..
Not until the shedding of the blood of the Messiah, savior did the new, better covenant come in.
Yes the gentiles come into the promises of Israel by faith, as Abraham did, but only by accepting Jesus as their full sacrifice for their own personal sins, and understanding repentance unto God and knowing what Jesus actually did for them by going to the cross.
God made a covenant with Noah as well, after the flood, with the bow in the clouds.
But Noah did offer a sacrifice on the altar he built. Just like Abraham and all his sons did as well, until the time of the law given to Moses.
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Romalyn ” You, as I do believe the great tribulation which Jesus referred to is the 31/2 years of the antichrist reign on earth, not a full 7 years as those who believe they will be caught up before any of it comes.”
Remember though ….I see the first 3.5 as historic shorttribber
Ok then here in another post you say this:
“For…………..7………………SEVEN years Christ Tried to gather unbelieving Israel under His wings as He also had tried before their FIRST personal VISITATION. I say Seven years because of His 3.5 year personal ministry and 3.5 year reaching out to unrepentant Israel after His ascension by the Apostles up until the stoning of Stephen.” shorttribber
Now do you see here, shorttribber, that you make contradicting statements here?
I can see nothing that shows that the apostle Paul, stopped preaching to the Israelites along with the gentiles everywhere he went, and some of them understood the gospel and accepted it.
Act 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
Act 18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.
Act 18:3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
Act 18:5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
Act 18:6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.
Act 18:7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man’s house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
Act 18:8 And Crispus,
believed on the Lord with all his house;
and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
Act 18:9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
Act 18:10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
Then here we have Paul staying here preaching for a year and a half still?
Act 18:11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
Act 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
Act 18:25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
Act 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
Act 18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
Act 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.
Here we have the two Jews, Aquila and Priscilla again, taking Apollos in and instructing him. Because he knew only of the baptism of John and for whatever reason, did not know or understand the sacrifice of Jesus and his resurrection.
I am done now, this needed a response, and it does not matter that you still think as you do. That is between you and God. As well, it seems to me that there were still many believers in Jerusalem preaching the gospel to the jews, and ones who traveled and preached the gospel to gentiles and Jews wherever they lived. The temple was not destroyed until 70AD I do believe it was. And Stephen died, then we have Paul being saved and going out preaching, so if God finished with Israel at Stephen’s death, then what was going on here after his death, Paul even went back to Jerusalem where the disciples were still preaching to the Jews.
So how can you say that the 7 years got fulfilled, by Jesus life in the first 3 1/2 then there were 3 1/2 years where the Jews were still preached to, when it seems to be there were never cut off from the ability to accept the gospel, no matter where they were.
“For…………..7………………SEVEN years Christ Tried to gather unbelieving Israel under His wings as He also had tried before their FIRST personal VISITATION. I say Seven years because of His 3.5 year personal ministry and 3.5 year reaching out to unrepentant Israel after His ascension by the Apostles up until the stoning of Stephen.” shorttribber
your statement again shorttribber, is where so many reformers believed in replacement theology and that God was completely done with the Jewish nation, which is not biblical.
and as well caused much antisemitism to rise up in the church is my thinking.
Like I said, the scriptures speak for themselves. I sure wish I knew how to bold things on here and highlight. Does not seem to allow it.
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Wickus, I post this here only to show you how I think shorttribber got off track in this understanding, not that he is SDA I do not know. At one time, most Christians understood the SDA church was way off, seems today many accept it. I argued over at FP all the time, and sent to stuff to Holly Pivec and also to the one lady who seems in charge and she said their doctrinal statement agreed with FP when oldtime, Crman, posted stuff from SDA teachers.
First I give a warning here, this is from the Clear Word, scanned in by my scanner so as not to misquote any of it. Although the SDA church says they did not make a new bible, they did in fact do so, Page 896 of the Clear Word, which I bought so I could understand how so many of my friends could be so off target. This is just one example of what they did.
Now when SDA was challenged that they had changed the word of God in many places, they repsonded by saying that this was just a study bible
The Clear Word, and expanded paraphrase to build strong faith and nurture spiritual growth.
Jack J Blanco
Daniel 9:20
Seventy-Weeks Prophecy
While I was praying and confessing my sins and the sins of my people
and pleading with the Lord on behalf of Jerusalem and His holy
mountain. -‘Gabriel quickly flew to my side to help me. He was the one
who had talked to me before and helped me to better understand parts
of the vision, it was about the time of evening worship when he arrived.
He said. “Daniel. I’m here to tell you what’s happening behind the
scenes and to help you understand things more clearly. -3As soon as
you started praying, God asked me to come and help you. So now I’m
here to give you more insight into the vision. You are dearly loved by God. So listen carefully to my explanation of how you and your people fit into the vision.
The Coming of the Messiah
Seventy weeks have been allotted to your people and Jerusalem- each day representing a literal year. These seventy weeks or four hundred and ninety years we the first part of the two thousand three hundred-year prophecy.) They have been given to your people to stop their rebelliousness, repent of their sins and accept God’s salvation as an atonement for their iniquity and bring in everlasting righteousness.
Near the end of the seventy weeks, the Messiah will ratify the vision, anoint the heavenly sanctuary and begin His high priestly ministry. 2[)\When a Persian king gives the command to rebuild Jerusalem the two thousand three hundred-year prophecy will begin. But before the Messiah comes and is anointed, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks (or four hundred eighty-three years). .After the seven weeks (or forty-nine years) Jerusalem will be rebuilt in spite of great opposition.
The Coming of the Messiah
26Sixty-two weeks (or four hundred and thirty-four years) after the city is rebuilt, the Messiah will come, (Then one week or seven years will be left to your people.)
After three-and-a-half years, the Messiah will be cut off. but not for Himself. Three-and-a-half years later, your nation’s probation will end. Then Jerusalem and the Temple will be destroyed.
War, destruction and desolation will come in on the land like a flood. The end has been decreed and is certain.
27 During this last prophetic week. God will fulfill His covenant promise to your people.
But just three-and-a-half years into the Messiah’s ministry, they will turn Him over to strangers to be crucified.
This will bring to an end the ancient sacrifices and offerings.
For the next three-and-a-half years God will extend one last call to your people,
but the rulers will not listen which will bring about the desolation. However, the
nation that destroys the city and the and the Temple will also come to an end.
So now shorttribber, do you believe the first 3 1/2 are historical or the whole 7 years are already done with as you stated secondly?
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Gal. 3:17 And this I say, [that]……….. the covenant,……….. that was ……..confirmed before of God in Christ,…………… the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
God’s Word says it….plainly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The ministry of Christ through the apostles to NATIONAL Israel ended at the stoning of Stephen.
Of course the natural seed came in individually after that and still does…..But NATIONAL Israel will have one more chance.
What does the above scripture mean to you?
I know sacrifice continued…after the Abrahamic Covenant, that has nothing to do with it.
I know sacrifice continued AFTER Christ’s death and resurrection too…..that also has nothing to do with it.
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Believe whatever you want to believe, and you sure seem to be confused as far as I am concerned, because you made contradictory statements in your own posts.
So then you do not believe the in gathering of national Israel today is of God if you think it ended with Stephen. This is another contradictory statement that is for sure.
I have shown you the words of God and the words of the Seventh Day Adventist bible, which is what you are stating.
Take your pick, but you won’t lead me along with you, and I won’t stop saying you are contradicting yourself and scriptures.
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Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
How about you take the whole of scripture in its context and not just pick out one here and there out of context of what is being written and said to the Galatians? I read my bible that way.
Israel who had the law, and gentiles come into Christ the very same way, is what is being said here, by faith, the kind of faith Abraham had. But Abraham and his covenant is still not the new covenant in the blood of Christ Jesus, who was one time only, crucified on the cross.
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Romalyn said…..So then you do not believe the in gathering of national Israel today is of God if you think it ended with Stephen. This is another contradictory statement that is for sure.
I have said Israel AS A NATION has another chance to repent and be grafted BACK IN to the vine…………………..that’s what Paul said……….they will be grafted BACK IN.
Romalyn said too………. But Abraham and his covenant is still not the new covenant in the blood of Christ Jesus, who was one time only, crucified on the cross.
I never said the Abrahamic Covenant WAS the New Covenant……..I said The NEW COVENANT is enveloped WITHIN the Abrahamic Covenant……….BEACAUSE the NEW COVENANT is the FULFILLMENT and CONFIRMATION ………………….OF……………..the Abrahamic Covenant.
That…………..ALL……………who come to Christ come by faith in the SEED PROMISED to him. And ………THAT………. Covenant/PROMISE…………….WAS CONFIRMED IN CHRIST.
Here it is again.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, …………………………………….that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ,……………………………………… the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
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Christ is Who made SURE the PROMISE to Abraham would PREVAIL.
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Yes…there is more evidence that Christ did, “confirm”….FOR….7 years….THE EVERLASTING Covenant.
shorttribber
ok so this does mean that you agree with the SDA teaching of the 7 year covenant being confirmed
Jesus said this himself
Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.
Mar 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
I will stick with the very words of Jesus and his apostles, and not anyone else.
They could easily have said Jesus confirmed the covenant with many in his blood right?
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The antichrist comes in by flattery and deceit in the first half, then at the midpoint he, the son of perdition, allows Satan into him, and becomes the antichrist and rules and reigns for the final 3 1/2 years which is the great tribulation time.
Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Now there are different thinking’s on this but I think the abomination of desolation is when antichrist sits in the temple of god, making himself god.
And I know one thing the minute I let antichrist sit in my heart, if I am the temple of God, then I am gone. You cannot be the temple of god and let antichrist sit in there.
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No….I said this….
Christ did, “confirm”….FOR….7 years….THE EVERLASTING Covenant.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………..
The CONFIRMATION is 7 years………….the Covenant itself is Everlasting.
I don’t concern myself with SDA teaching……and as I said, there is no 7 year Covenant.
I will stick with the very words of Jesus, His Apostles and Prophets also.
Mark 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for …………………………………………..many……………………………………………….
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with………………many……………….
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So that siteth…………….. in…………….. the temple of God showing himself that he is God
the word “in” used here can also be understood as………..among.
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Romalynnstar, I have found what you have written to be absolutely amazing. Thank you for your strong stance on biblical truth.
What I have also found is that Short-T has yet to deny that he was getting his information from the SDA – IF SO this would explain a lot.
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My bad….I guess Short-T has explained himself. After I had posted.
Wickus, whats up with the delay’s in posting comments now – why do they have to await moderation?
Comment by Wickus: Mr B, check your mail.
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Sorry the feast days do co relate to what Jesus will finish up in the endtimes, we need to understand them if we can but do not have to keep them like they did under the law.
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…in the end we’ll know,….but on the way, we’ll wonder!///….as seconds tick the time out,….theres soooomuch left to know, and i’m on the road to find out
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Sorry the feast days do co relate to what Jesus will finish up in the endtimes, we need to understand them if we can but do not have to keep them like they did under the law.
I don’t recall saying any about fest days…………..They probably will correlate in some way, i’m not familiar with them really.
thought i should add this passage……..
Romans 15
3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.
commentary……..This reached fulfillment on while on the cross.
4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
commentary………Likeminded/koinonia/common union/communion…….this we do in remembrance of Him
6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
commentary………with ONE mind and ONE mouth…..again communion.
7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.
commentary………receive one another as Christ….RECEIVED us….how did He receive us? By His Blood and by His Sacrifice…………………….By Communion with Christ we are Received into the Fellowship/Kononia with God and are of His Household of Faith.
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, …………to ………………….confirm the promises …………………..[made] unto the fathers:
9 And ……………………………..that……………………………….. the Gentiles might glorify God for [his] mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
Commentary………….To CONFIRM the Promises……………..To MAKE us Likeminded WITH God………………….TO……………….HAVE…………..COMMUNION WITH……….Him
Mark 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for …………………………………………..many……………………………………………….
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you will never convince me. the earliest church bishops /writers believed there was a final 7yr time. ireneaus taught by polycarp taught by john the apostle. I will stick with their interpretation of Daniel and not yours.
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Romalyn wrote….
you will never convince me. the earliest church bishops /writers believed there was a final 7yr time. ireneaus taught by polycarp taught by john the apostle. I will stick with their interpretation of Daniel and not yours.
……………………………………………………………
I’ve read Irenaeus and polycarp…….I don’t recall though where they said such…..I’ll check it out again.
I recall Hippolytus mentioning such.
…………………………………………………………..
But we both agree that the Word of God,Apostles and Prophets are what we look to for our final authority and to the others as helpful opinions that should be greatly respected.
…………………………………………………………..
The statement about an exact time of 3.5 connected exactly to the Stoning of Stephen was in error though, I will admit that I was connecting that even to the conversion of Paul and his efforts shortly after that and the Persecutions that he faced trying to convince the Jews at Jerusalem and their attempts on his life.
In the short period of time after the stoning of Stephen and the vision to send Peter to Cornelius is more accurate of a time to bring a close to the 70th week in a shadow or type…….Of course I did also mention that the 3.5 years AFTER the sacrifice of Christ was a…. Layer/Shadow….. of what time will be in the final and more clearly defined end……that being the 3.5 year Great trib that is yet future.
……………………………………………………………………………….
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The 3.5 years is was not separated from the prophecy of the 70 weeks- specifically the 7 year time period. It is still in continuation and has already been fulfilled and it did end that year at the stoning of Stephen. It is in no way separated from that 7 year time period and put into the future. That is a deception which many have fallen to believe. If you want to have real answers and real proof, you must read the Bible. The Bible contains the answers.
This prophecy is found in Daniel 9:20-27. In verse 24, Daniel is told “Seventy weeks [490 days] are decreed for your people…”- when he says to Daniel “your people”, he is talking about the people of Israel because Daniel is a Jew. Verse 27 tells all about the 7 years. We know the seven years started when Jesus was baptised. Halfway through that 7 years, Jesus died on the cross and at the same time sacrifice and offering ended, as prophesied in Daniel 9:27.
If we go forward to Acts 1:6, the disciples ask Jesus “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”- talking about the prophecy. Jesus replies to them in verse 7 and 8 “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. (8) But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
–>Okay, remember that last verse.
We know the 3.5 after Jesus died was in fact the stoning of Stephen (as mentioned in Acts 7:54-60. In Acts 8:1, we are told “On that day a great persecution broke out against the church at Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.”- this refers to the exact same day as the stoning of Stephen. We know here that what Jesus said in Acts Chapter 1 has been fulfilled- remember how he says “…and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” Acts 8 fulfills that prophesy as we are told that people from Jerusalem scattered through Judea and Samaria, but we know the disciples stayed in Jerusalem. The disciples were preaching the Word of God to the people of Jerusalem. The people who left Jerusalem to Judea and Samaria told others there about the Word of God too.
Now at the end of the seven years, the Word of God was not exclusive but was preached to the gentiles and around the whole world. The Lord gives us the answers in the Bible, all we have to do is read it and study it. We serve a wonderful Lord.
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Hi TS,
What manner of proof can be provided or have you found that the Stoning of Stephen occurred 3.5 years after Christ’s ascension? i’ve been able to find bits and pieces but nothing absolute as of yet.
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We know the seven years started when Jesus was baptised. Halfway through that 7 years, Jesus died on the cross and at the same time sacrifice and offering ended, as prophesied in Daniel 9:27. truthseeker
Can you tell me how you came to this conclusion? If it is not from SDA teachings? Or someone who was influenced by them?
The only place I find this teaching coming from is the Seventh Day Adventist groups, who are strongly evangelizing right now, but not saying they are SDA, I discovered this when someone asked me about a man’s book. Whitehorse Media, is another one that supports this, but is founded, even though they deny being any denomination, they are SDA.
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We know the seven years started when Jesus was baptised. Halfway through that 7 years, Jesus died on the cross and at the same time sacrifice and offering ended, as prophesied in Daniel 9:27. truthseeker
Then Romalyn wrote……
“The only place I find this teaching coming from is the Seventh Day Adventist groups”
This was taught by nearly 100% of all Bible commentators until 1830 Romalynn, and still a very large number after 1830.
I’ll provide a list if you wish……none of whom were influenced by SDA teaching
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We know the seven years started when Jesus was baptised. Halfway through that 7 years, Jesus died on the cross and at the same time sacrifice and offering ended, as prophesied in Daniel 9:27. truthseeker
Then Romalyn wrote…
The only place I find this teaching coming from is the Seventh Day Adventist group
Romalyn,
This was taught by nearly 100% of Bible commentators and church leaders through the entire Reformation up untill 1830 and a great many after that……don’t know how much research you could have done to make such a statement.
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Thank you very much for pointing that one out shorttribber I know that. But I was referring to today, not years ago who is teaching what. So now today other than some people who are trying to be the reformers again, reformation churches etc, which SDA can mimic as well, and use some of them.
So today the reformers are not going around pretending to be something they are not, teachign endtime prophecies, the Seventh Day Adventists church is doing this one, which comes from Ellen G White, so called prophetess who came out of the Millerite movement failed false prophecies, that they would not admit. So came up with some stupid investigative judgement garbage that Jesus is now doing in the heavenly realm, on that Day of Disappointment. Give me a break, how off scripture can that teaching be.
I can tell you there are few of the refomers I read or like as they were coming out of RCC with very little to go on, the holy spirit did lead and allow some to get the word of God out of the priests and RCC hands into the common people but that took some time for sure.
The two of you can do whatever you want, as I said the early church taught what we are saying here, and I will lay my head down on thinking that those closest to the apostles, before the Roman Catholic Church took them over, and were taught by the disciples of John the apostle are probably the ones to look to.
Thank God that due to the releasing of these, for all to read now, out of the Latin that obscure language of the Romans and RCC, they can be read, and compared to the scriptures that they point out.
Many have taken passages out of context to try to prove the pretrib rapture, and that they believed in the primacy of the pope, etc, but that is not true. Maybe some of them later on did, but not the earliest ones. They were bishops, not priests or popes.
Now I am done with both of you, because I will not waste any more time, posting truth here as anyone who comes along can read it for themselves. If you two believe what you believe, what are you doing on this site to begin with? We are futurists, which can be clearly seen and has been stated over and over.
Just here to lead others along to what you want them to believe? You have plenty of other sites to go to where this is taught, or do you?
I will not say God bless, as I do not believe in blessing those who teach things that are not biblical. What I will say is I pray for all of those caught up in this to be shown by the Holy Spirit, and lead into the truth. But I am done, others may say what they will.
Antichrist will rule and reign for 3 1/2 years after he has come in by deception for the first half, then he will give a mark, that is tied to the economy, not Sunday worship or anything else that some teach. Shorttribber do you then believe the POPE is antichrist as the reformers did as they came out of the persecution and pretty much hated them, as did many Christians who fell into replacement theology because they hated the Jews for the crucifixion of Jesus, not fully accepting that all sinners caused the need for Jesus, and he gave his live, no one took it from HIM.
Many of the reformers persecuted those who came after them, who did not agree with them totally either. That is why I am not interested in them at all, or repeating their errors.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
So now if you are historicists
totally, not saying anything is wrong with knowing your history, as I am well versed in all of the history, who think the POPE is antichrist, has been will be etc,
Or if you are preterists, who think that everything has happened already
then go find someone to agree with you, and post on their sites
unless of course you are trying to lead others off into your teachings
and if you believe that all of Revelation is symbolic then perhaps you might start to think again
Again I say if you want to be here and post such things, be prepared to be given the scriptures and the true history of the early church, as well as the history after that time came along.
God gives us all free will, so believe anything you want to believe, but do not expect me to go along with it.
And in case you wonder if I as a woman can say this, my husband is well aware of the postings on here, and knows and agrees with everything I post here.
Not sure if you are men or women, but to me I do obey the scriptures on this one as well. Women submit to their own husbands at home, and if they are believers allow them to study and help and teach you.
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i am Historicist/Futurist Romalyn……it’s very sad that you are not willing to say God bless you to others who disagree with your opinion………I had no idea you were doctrinally infallible.
I’ve said before that I’m not interested in SDA teaching, I’m interested in only the truth….please post where Ireneas and Polycarp taught and believed as you say.
Good thing Darby and Hal Lindsay got us all straightened out and delivered us all from all those dumb reformers who gave us our Bibles to read.
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“Good thing Darby and Hal Lindsay got us all straightened out and delivered us all from all those dumb reformers who gave us our Bibles to read.” shorttribber
I do not believe I ever referred to Darby and Hal Lindsay in anything I ever said on this board.
If you saw me write that somewhere here or over at fp, you please show me that, because I left the pretrib teachings many years before coming to fp and here.
Please know this I am indebted to the many who preserved the word of god for us, first the Hebrews/jews etc, then the early church, greek, armenian etc, and then of course the RCC although once the church got romanized and back into the babylon priesthood system, it was a bad thing. The reformers did not have access to as much as we do today that is for sure.
Please note that you are the one calling someone dumb on this site, not me.
You seem to want to pick a fight over this, and it will not work. I will be back to put the information you requested about the early bishops.
“i am Historicist/Futurist Romalyn……it’s very sad that you are not willing to say God bless you to others who disagree with your opinion………I had no idea you were doctrinally infallible.”
The word of God is infallible that is for sure. And I never say god bless. to those who are still in the pretrib camp, even my family members when we discuss this issue. And this is the issue we discuss, and I would bless no one to continue in their thinking if it is error.
We are discussing one issue here and one alone.
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“I’ve said before that I’m not interested in SDA teaching, I’m interested in only the truth….please post where Ireneas and Polycarp taught and believed as you say.” shorttribber
I will be back later to list a few sites for you to look at if you are interested, just remember to be careful because many have a lot of gnostic books there as well. Only the first bishops, like up to AD 200
I do not think Augustine’s writings are anything I would ever even attempt tor read or recommend anyone, Hippolytus is like that too, way too wordy. I do not read the reformers, commentaries, etc any longer. I did early in my Christian walk but no more. In fact I read no man’s books, etc.
Strong’s concordance with esword is good to look up things.
I explained before that I went to Ireneaus because a pretribber used his name and writings, which were twisted up with little excerpts from different paragraphs to try to prove they were pretrib in the early church. Glad that I did now for sure. Someone wrote that it was done in a book by a prominent pretrib writer, but since I am not going to try to prove that I will not say which one.
I am earnestly contending for the faith
Jud 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
Jud 1:2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
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You know of course I used the word dumb facetiously of the reformers……….i still read much of their work.
I’ve said it’s a shame to not say God bless you to those who are contrary to every aspect of your ideas because they are yet our brothers and sisters in Christ. If you want them to be be blessed with the truth it will be via God’s blessing.
I have no desire to pick a fight at all, I just think it’s sad we can’t discuss our differences without your personal invitation to me to exit this discussion blog and take my opinions with me.
I have done more looking into irenaeus and found on pages 554 and 555 that he does expect an antchrist to defile a physical temple……or tabernacle. Having admitted that i did not see any place where he mentions a seven year covenant or treaty. His ideas as he conveys then regarding the Book of Daniel or awkwardly stated in many cases and is probably due to his work passing through so many hands and translators from Latin versions.
There are a few areas among his work that sound very agreeable to my position also though.
But he did expect a Literal temple wherein an antichrist could be seated.
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Again a person cannot be blessed if they continue in their errors, by God or me. It is up to them to read the bible and find the truth and until they are ready to do that, then what blessing could they possibly have?
Irenaeus, Against Heresies Book 5, Chapter 25
The fraud, pride, and tyrannical kingdom of Antichrist, as described by Daniel and Paul.
1. And not only by the particulars already mentioned, but also by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God; and that, although a mere slave, he wishes himself to be proclaimed as a king. For he (Antichrist) being endued with all the power of the devil, shall come, not as a righteous king, nor as a legitimate king, [i.e., one] in subjection to God, but an impious, unjust, and lawless one; as an apostate, iniquitous and murderous; as a robber, concentrating in himself [all] satanic apostasy, and setting aside idols to persuade [men] that he himself is God, raising up himself as the only idol, having in himself the multifarious errors of the other idols. This he does, in order that they who do [now] worship the devil by means of many abominations, may serve himself by this one idol, of whom the apostle thus speaks in the second Epistle to the Thessalonians: Unless there shall come a failing away first, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he sits in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God. The apostle therefore clearly points out his apostasy, and that he is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped— that is, above every idol — for these are indeed so called by men, but are not [really] gods; and that he will endeavour in a tyrannical manner to set himself forth as God.
2. Moreover, he (the apostle) has also pointed out this which I have shown in many ways, that the temple in Jerusalem was made by the direction of the true God. For the apostle himself, speaking in his own person, distinctly called it the temple of God. Now I have shown in the third book, that no one is termed God by the apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord, by whose directions the temple which is at Jerusalem was constructed for those purposes which I have already mentioned; in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavouring to show himself as Christ, as the Lord also declares: But when you shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that reads understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be.
3. Daniel too, looking forward to the end of the last kingdom, i.e., the ten last kings, among whom the kingdom of those men shall be partitioned, and upon whom the son of perdition shall come, declares that ten horns shall spring from the beast, and that another little horn shall arise in the midst of them, and that three of the former shall be rooted up before his face. He says: And, behold, eyes were in this horn as the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things, and his look was more stout than his fellows. I was looking, and this horn made war against the saints, and prevailed against them, until the Ancient of days came and gave judgment to the saints of the most high God, and the time came, and the saints obtained the kingdom. Daniel 7:8, etc. Then, further on, in the interpretation of the vision, there was said to him: The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall excel all other kingdoms, and devour the whole earth, and tread it down, and cut it in pieces. And its ten horns are ten kings which shall arise; and after them shall arise another, who shall surpass in evil deeds all that were before him, and shall overthrow three kings; and he shall speak words against the most high God, and wear out the saints of the most high God, and shall purpose to change times and laws; and [everything] shall be given into his hand until a time of times and a half time, Daniel 7:23, etc. that is, for three years and six months, during which time, when he comes, he shall reign over the earth. Of whom also the Apostle Paul again, speaking in the second [Epistle] to the Thessalonians, and at the same time proclaiming the cause of his advent, thus says: And then shall the wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the spirit of His mouth, and destroy by the presence of His coming; whose coming [i.e., the wicked one’s] is after the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and portents of lies, and with all deceivableness of wickedness for those who perish; because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And therefore God will send them the working of error, that they may believe a lie; that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but gave consent to iniquity, 2 Thessalonians 2:8
4. The Lord also spoke as follows to those who did not believe in Him: I have come in my Father’s name, and you have not received Me: when another shall come in his own name, him you will receive, John 5:43 calling Antichrist the other, because he is alienated from the Lord. This is also the unjust judge, whom the Lord mentioned as one who feared not God, neither regarded man, Luke 18:2, etc. to whom the widow fled in her forgetfulness of God—that is, the earthly Jerusalem,— to be avenged of her adversary. Which also he shall do in the time of his kingdom: he shall remove his kingdom into that [city], and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ. To this purpose Daniel says again: And he shall desolate the holy place; and sin has been given for a sacrifice, and righteousness been cast away in the earth, and he has been active (fecit), and gone on prosperously. Daniel 8:12 And the angel Gabriel, when explaining his vision, states with regard to this person: And towards the end of their kingdom a king of a most fierce countenance shall arise, one understanding [dark] questions, and exceedingly powerful, full of wonders; and he shall corrupt, direct, influence (faciet), and put strong men down, the holy people likewise; and his yoke shall be directed as a wreath [round their neck]; deceit shall be in his hand, and he shall be lifted up in his heart: he shall also ruin many by deceit, and lead many to perdition, bruising them in his hand like eggs. Daniel 8:23, etc. And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: And in the midst of the week, he says, the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete. Daniel 9:27 Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.
5. From all these passages are revealed to us, not merely the particulars of the apostasy, and [the doings] of him who concentrates in himself every satanic error, but also, that there is one and the same God the Father, who was declared by the prophets, but made manifest by Christ. For if what Daniel prophesied concerning the end has been confirmed by the Lord, when He said, When you shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet Matthew 24:15 (and the angel Gabriel gave the interpretation of the visions to Daniel, and he is the archangel of the Creator (Demiurgi), who also proclaimed to Mary the visible coming and the incarnation of Christ), then one and the same God is most manifestly pointed out, who sent the prophets, and made promise of the Son, and called us into His knowledge.
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And in the midst of the week, he says, the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete. Daniel 9:27 Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.
now just what week could he be referring to here? the final one, wihch if the midst of the week is the last three years and six months, then the week would have to be 7 years
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And its ten horns are ten kings which shall arise; and after them shall arise another, who shall surpass in evil deeds all that were before him, and shall overthrow three kings; and he shall speak words against the most high God, and wear out the saints of the most high God, and shall purpose to change times and laws; and [everything] shall be given into his hand until a time of times and a half time, Daniel 7:23, etc. that is, for three years and six months, during which time, when he comes, he shall reign over the earth. Of whom also the Apostle Paul again, speaking in the second [Epistle] to the Thessalonians, and at the same time proclaiming the cause of his advent, thus says: And then shall the wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the spirit of His mouth, and destroy by the presence of His coming; whose coming [i.e., the wicked one’s] is after the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and portents of lies, and with all deceivableness of wickedness for those who perish; because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And therefore God will send them the working of error, that they may believe a lie; that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but gave consent to iniquity, 2 Thessalonians 2:8
As we have stated here many times he comes in by flattery and deceit into the ten toed kingdom of the revived Roman Empire, uproots three, then he is the eighth as we are shown in the Revelation by John. He is not one of the kings at all
Daniel 7:23, etc. that is, for three years and six months, during which time, when he comes, he shall reign over the earth
no one knows for sure exactly where we are in this as yet, but we are looking at things that make it sure seem very close, Herb Peters always stated he was not speaking as a prophet, but it was a theory
which everyone else who posted the information to this site said as well, wickus and adamantine
now right now I do not have more time as I have to do some scanning of pictures tonite, but as well Justin Martyr speaks of these things too
I think that our Jesus knew how much of a mess the teachings were going to come to and preserved some of the early bishops writings to try to correct the church which had already gone astray in so many areas even before 200AD
so I believe he kept it intact enough for us to be able to sort through all of that for sure
Like I said, I need to do some other work tonite and probably in the morning to find the other parts
This is one reason no one will move me to think that the temple of the God of Israel, the only true God for sure, Father of our Lord Jesus, Messiah
is where the antichrist will sit
and I think as Ireneaus did and states here that this is the abomination of desolation
Not everyone agrees with me on that here, but they do not go around saying that the final 7 years has already happened, that is for sure
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I agree….the final one………….Do you see where he stated the antichrist makes a seven year treaty or covenant?
I agree there will be three years and six months wherein antichrst (after bringing an end to the “daily”) will destroy the saints.
Because he quotes 9:27 doesn’t mean he understood the similarity in the language used between that and chapter 12 either, as is evident by his use of this……..
To this purpose Daniel says again: And he shall desolate the holy place; and sin has been given for a sacrifice, and righteousness been cast away in the earth, and he has been active (fecit), and gone on prosperously.
This is a passage that is universally agreed to refer to the act by Antiochus Epiphanes
Of all the doctrinal issues irenaeus discusses he spends really not much time on end time issues and could not even have fully understood them himself….true he was closest to John and a student of polycarp or at least associated with him but i will still let even the Word of God have precedence even over his teaching…….not to mention he is the lone example
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Not everyone agrees with me on that here, but they do not go around saying that the final 7 years has already happened, that is for sure
I do not say the final seven has happened either…..only that the first 3.5 has happened.
And that the second 3.5 COULD HAVE happened in the form of a type /shadow or layer fulfillment.
Again………irenaeus says nothing of antichrist CONFIRMING or MAKING any seven year COVENANT with MANY.
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64. These things, then, being to come to pass, beloved, and the one week being divided into two parts, and the abomination of desolation being manifested then, and the two prophets and forerunners of the Lord having finished their course, and the whole world finally approaching the consummation, what remains but the coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ from heaven, for whom we have looked in hope? Who shall bring the conflagration and just judgment upon all who have refused to believe in Him. For the Lord says, And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draws near. And there shall not a hair of your head perish. For as the lightning comes out of the east, and shines even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Now the fall took place in paradise; for Adam fell there. And He says again, Then shall the Son of man send His angels, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds of heaven. And David also, in announcing prophetically the judgment and coming of the Lord, says, His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and His circuit unto the end of the heaven: and there is no one hid from the heat thereof. By the heat he means the conflagration. And Esaias speaks thus: Come, my people, enter into your chamber, (and) shut your door: hide yourself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation of the Lord be overpast. And Paul in like manner: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth of God in unrighteousness.
For when the legs of iron have issued in the feet and toes, according to the similitude of the image and that of the terrible beast, as has been shown in the above, (then shall be the time) when the iron and the clay shall be mingled together.
Now Daniel will set forth this subject to us. For he says,
And one week will make a covenant with many, and it shall be that in the midst (half) of the week my sacrifice and oblation shall cease.
Daniel 9:27 By one week, therefore, he meant the last week which is to be at the end of the whole world of which week the two prophets Enoch and Elias will take up the half. For they will preach 1, 260 days clothed in sackcloth, proclaiming repentance to the people and to all the nations.
Justin Martyr
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sorry that was Hippolytus
Died: 236 about
Martyr, presbyter and antipope; date of birth unknown; d. about 236
Like I said anyone is free to believe what they wish and I know these men are not perfect either
but I would rather stake what I believe on the ones closer to the apostles than any of the others
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There is no denying Justin Martyr saw the final seven as entirely future also and if these Ideas are true and I have always admitted they certainly could be………i will know along with vast multitudes of Christians when the final week as you understand it begins.
On the other hand if they along with you and so many others are wrong then sudden destruction shall sever many from the faith and they shall be enormously unprepared…that’s why i teach as I do because I believe that’s what the Word of God teaches and if I’m silent then I’ll stand responsible for what I was convinced to be true.
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“””On the other hand if they along with you and so many others are wrong then sudden destruction shall sever many from the faith and they shall be enormously unprepared…that’s why i teach as I do because I believe that’s what the Word of God teaches and if I’m silent then I’ll stand responsible for what I was convinced to be true.”””” shorttribber
Are you absolutely confused? Any true believer in Jesus Christ, will never ever be severed from the faith? How could that even be possible? If they are, then they never had any faith to begin with. Destruction of the earthly things here would never sever a true believer from the faith, because let me tell you destruction has come to many believers in many different ways throughout the history of the church. Destruction of the flesh will not sever us from the faith.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
.
We live and die in Christ Jesus, our redeemer, the author and finisher of our faith.
I pray that all who are posting here and reading this do just that, no matter what you believe about the end time, that is the truth. Pretrib, posttrib, prewrath, whatever, if you have faith and have repented, and baptized and given your heart, mind, and soul to be purified by the Holy Spirit and the word of God, you will never be severed from the faith.
Thank you Mr. Baldy, I missed your comment. Know this, I will certainly be praying.
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Don’t want to answer the OSAS argument….we must agree to disagree on that too I suppose.
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Do not even try to start that one with me, shorttribber, OSAS, you said they would be severed from their faith if they are wrong about endtimes.
And I stated emphatically that there is no way they can be severed from the faith if they are in the faith. You see, you are doing just exactly what I told you. Trying to pick a fight and distraction. The only way you can lose your faith in Jesus Christ is to give it up, the same way you got it, freely given. So I think I have proven to all posting here and reading that you are extremely confused on several levels, and want to teach.
Nothing wrong with wanting to be a teacher, but do not go into it lightly that is for sure.
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“Do not even try to start that one with me, shorttribber, OSAS, you said they would be severed from their faith if they are wrong about endtimes. ”
I never said they would be severed FOR believing differently
“The only way you can lose your faith in Jesus Christ is to give it up, the same way you got it, freely given.” I agree with this
Here’s what I said………
sudden destruction shall sever many from the faith…………….hearts FAILING them for FEAR.
I hope you can see the difference….and I wasn’t trying to start anything , I said I did not want to enter a OSAS argument.
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