How Did Christmas Become A Festival Of Greed?

How Did Christmas Become A Festival Of Greed?

By Michael Snyder

For most people, Christmas is all about the presents. But how did such a supposedly sacred holiday become a festival of greed? Not many people know the history behind Christmas gift giving, and it will probably shock you. This year, Americans will spend somewhere in the neighborhood of 600 billion dollars on Christmas, but most people have no coherent explanation for why they are buying all of these gifts. Those that are Christian will tell you that they are doing it to celebrate the birth of Christ, but as you will see below, gift giving on this holiday originated long before Christ was born. Others will tell you that they are just following tradition, but most of them have absolutely no idea where the tradition of Christmas gift giving originally came from. And the truth is that most people simply don’t care about the history. They are just excited about all of the stuff that they are going to get on December 25th. But if you are curious to learn how Christmas became a festival of greed, just keep reading…

In early America, there was no Christmas gift giving. In fact, the Puritans greatly disapproved of celebrating the holiday, and in some areas the celebration of Christmas was actually banned by law.

For example, if you were caught celebrating Christmas in the state of Massachusetts from 1659 to 1681 you could be fined five shillings

On May 11, 1659, the Massachusetts Bay Colony legislature even went so far as to officially ban Christmas and gave anyone found celebrating it a fine of five shillings. The legislature stated the ban was needed For preventing disorders arising in severall places within this jurisdiceon, by reason of some still observing such festivalls as were superstitiously kept in other countrys, to the great dishonnor of God & offence of others, it is therefore ordered … that whosoever shall be found observing any such day as Christmas or the like, either by for-bearing of labour, feasting, or any other way, upon any such account as aforesaid, every such person so offending shall pay for every such offence five shillings, as a fine to the county.

The ban remained in place for 22 years until it was repealed in 1681 after a new surge of European immigrants brought a demand for the holiday. Even though the ban was lifted, Christmas was not warmly embraced by the puritans and it remained a dull and muted holiday over two centuries later.

But weren’t the Puritans Christians?

Didn’t they want to honor the Lord Jesus?

Of course they were Christians. They took their faith incredibly seriously. But they also knew their history a lot better than we do.

Most Christians do not realize this, but Christians did not celebrate anything in late December for the first 300 years after the time of Jesus. The only people that celebrated anything at that time were the pagans.

By now, most of you are probably aware of the great Roman celebration known as Saturnalia. But most people don’t know that our tradition of gift giving can be traced back to that holiday. The following is how Wikipedia describes this ancient pagan festival…

Saturnalia was an ancient Roman festival in honor of the deity Saturn, held on the 17th of December of the Julian calendar and later expanded with festivities through to the 23rd of December. The holiday was celebrated with a sacrifice at the Temple of Saturn, in the Roman Forum, and a public banquet, followed by private gift-giving, continual partying, and a carnivalatmosphere that overturned Roman social norms:gambling was permitted, and masters provided table service for their slaves. The poet Catullus called it “the best of days.”

Most people do not realize this, but the priests of Saturn would even carry wreaths of evergreen boughs in procession throughout the pagan Roman temples.  These processions probably looked at least a little bit similar to our Christmas parades today.

So precisely who was Saturn? Here is more from Wikipedia

Saturn (LatinSaturnus) is a god in ancient Roman religion, and a character in myth. Saturn is a complex figure because of his multiple associations and long history. He was the first god of the Capitol, known since the most ancient times as Saturnius Mons, and was seen as a god of generation, dissolution, plenty, wealth, agriculture, periodic renewal and liberation. In later developments he came to be also a god of time. His reign was depicted as a Golden Age of plenty and peace. The Temple of Saturn in the Roman Forum housed the state treasury. In December, he was celebrated at what is perhaps the most famous of the Roman festivals, the Saturnalia, a time of feasting, role reversals, free speech, gift-giving and revelry. Saturn the planet and Saturday are both named after the god.

Eventually, the Romans began holding a festival at the end of Saturnalia on December 25th called Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, which means “the birthday of the unconquered sun”.  Throughout the empire, the “rebirth of the sun” was celebrated with great revelry.  The winter solstice was past and now the days were starting to get longer again.  It was a seemingly logical time to honor “the rebirth of the sun god”.

When the Roman Empire legalized Christianity in the early 4th century, the Roman government began to put a lot of pressure on church leaders to fit into the broader society. So eventually the birthday of the Son of God was moved to the time when the rest of society was celebrating “the rebirth of the sun god”.  December 25th was first celebrated as the birthday of Jesus in about 336 AD, and in the year 350 AD Pope Julius I officially decreed that Christians would celebrate that day from then on. At first, the new holiday was slow to be adopted by Christians and it was not widely observed until about the year 400.

And of course Jesus was not actually born in late December.  The evidence that we have indicates that he was most probably born in the fall during the Feast of Tabernacles.  The only reason people celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25th today is because the Catholics of the 4th century wanted to appease the pagan Roman government and the pagan culture at large.

Over time, the practice of gift giving during late December faded, and by the early 19th century the big tradition was actually to open presents on New Year’s Day. But then merchants saw an opportunity. According to historians, advertisements for “Christmas presents” began appearing in newspapers in the United States in the 1820s

Buying gifts to celebrate Christmas is steeped in tradition, dating to the 1820s when newspapers began to advertise items for Christmas presents, according to the Connecticut Historical Society.

“This holiday market place is part of the larger birth of the consumer culture that extends itself to all aspects of our social life,” said Leigh Eric Schmidt, author of “Consumer Rites” (Princeton University Press, 1995).

Schmidt, a professor of religion at Princeton University in New Jersey, said if the nation had continued the practice of giving gifts only as mementos for New Year’s, Christmas would not have evolved into the huge retail venture it is today. There would have been more focus on the religious aspects of the holiday. But all that changed when gift-giving became a way to honor family relationships.

And at first, Christmas in America was nothing like the festival of greed that it is today.  Gifts were usually small, modest and personal. The following is one description of the tradition of Christmas gift givingduring that era

In the 1820s, ’30s and ’40s merchants had noticed the growing role of gifts in the celebration of Christmas and New Year. Starting in the mid- to late- 1850s, imaginative importers, craftspersons and storekeepers consciously reshaped the holidays to their own ends even as shoppers elevated the place of Christmas gifts in their home holiday. However, for all the efforts of businessmen to exploit the season Americans persistently attempted to separate the influence of commerce from the gifts they gave.

What emerged was a kind of dialogue between consumers and merchants. Many gift-givers, for instance, ranked handmade gifts over purchased or totally manufactured ones. Retailers responded by marketing partially assembled goods to which givers applied the finishing touches. Americans also moderated the relationship between commerce and giving by wrapping the gifts they gave. The custom had once been merely to give a gift unadorned and uncovered, but a present hidden in paper heightened the effect of the gesture, fixing the act of giving to a moment of revelation. Wrapping also helped designate an item as a gift. As gifts came increasingly from stores, factories and homes of cottage labourers, paper and string helped redefine an object to meet its social use. The commercial work comprehended the importance of this symbolic transformation of goods. Grander stores began to wrap gifts purchased from their stock in distinctive, coloured papers, tinsel cords and bright ribbons, as part of their delivery services. Thus, while paper might have blurred a present’s association with commerce in some cases, in others it advertised a material status associated with patronizing the ‘right’ store.

Over time, Christmas gifts came to be associated with a mythical gift giver in cultures all over the globe.

Of course in the United States this mythical gift giver is known as “Santa Claus”, but in other areas of the planet the traditions are very different

Current tradition in several Latin American countries (such as Venezuela and Colombia) holds that while Santa makes the toys, he then gives them to the Baby Jesus, who is the one who actually delivers them to the children’s homes, a reconciliation between traditional religious beliefs and the iconography of Santa Claus imported from the United States.

In South Tyrol (Italy), Austria, Czech Republic, Southern Germany, Hungary, Liechtenstein, Slovakia, and Switzerland, the Christkind (Ježíšek in Czech, Jézuska in Hungarian and Ježiško in Slovak) brings the presents. Greek children get their presents from Saint Basil on New Year’s Eve, the eve of that saint’s liturgical feast. The German St. Nikolaus is not identical with the Weihnachtsmann (who is the German version of Santa Claus / Father Christmas). St. Nikolaus wears a bishop’s dress and still brings small gifts (usually candies, nuts, and fruits) on December 6 and is accompanied by Knecht Ruprecht. Although many parents around the world routinely teach their children about Santa Claus and other gift bringers, some have come to reject this practice, considering it deceptive.

This article may upset some people because their Christmas traditions are so deeply cherished.

But there is no reason to be upset.

If you are going to do something, you should know why you are doing it.

Knowing our history empowers us to take control of our lives and to make better decisions.

As a Christian, I never knew any of the history behind Christmas when I was growing up.  So I could never explain the reasons for why I was doing the things that I was doing to others.

And no holiday should ever be a festival of greed.

So whatever you are celebrating this time of the year, make sure it is for the right reasons and not the wrong ones.

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84 thoughts on “How Did Christmas Become A Festival Of Greed?

  1. Now I’ve read this, as I have, many other pages over the years on the subject, I tremble at Revelation 11:9-11, and still wonder what that’s all about. Strange that even the Scriptures make mention of gift-giving.

    I’ve got goose bumps, now.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Thank-you Vic for taking a stand by posting this powerful piece. Unfortunately it places one in the ” not so popular category “. Welcome to the narrow road.It’s pretty lonely.Praise God we’re not here to please man 🙂

    Tellthetruth1, now that was pretty profound for you to mention that chapter . It’s given me the goose bumps maybe for another reason than the gift giving , but then again it’s God’s Word and it will never return void.I love that.

    I know that once again this places a target on our back’s to be ridiculed as other’s tend to use a post like this to PROMOTE this pagan festival even more, but may God give us the courage to stand , despite the scorning and the mocking. I suppose it’s all part of the refining fire.

    I love how Malachi say’s it 🙂

    ” who shall abide the day of His coming and who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiners fire and a fuller’s soap.”

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  3. because covetousness is rampant and the idolatry that unpins it. religious circles do not seem to mind this trend at all because the post-modern ‘church’ in the by and large now is a very commercial venture. so many holiday traditions have very idolatrous roots. ancient israel had the same issue and today it seems the whole world is given over to worship the material world and why the masses that will once and for all time reject Jesus will welcome the mark of the beast.

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Great article although I am not a Christian I believe in the one true GOD of the ancient prophets of Israel. It is most refreshing to see this level of honesty about the origins of Christmas and expose what it is really all about. Try as many have for hundreds of years to pretend it is something that it s not is wrong and a big deception.

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  5. this post goes so very deep into the heart of God,………i am entirely blessed to put it mildly. i give thanks again like never before. Wonderful post Vic

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  6. jason, if i may, while there are many things that are detrimental in christmas celebration and widely accepted by most of christendom that distorts the message of God, it is Jesus Christ Himself that is above all the hype and one can see by His life and death, that never a man on earth lived as He did, to fulfill that Holy Law given to God’s servants the prophets.

    and though you do not regard Him at present, i hope that you will study the ancient promises to israel in the old testament in a new light and see Him concealed within them and then read the new testament and see your beloved old testament revealed in the Son of Man-the Son of God-Jesus.

    i have a suggestion——if you do not mind one——this is only an invitation i extend—(i have seen the ebook as a free download if you are interested)—to read a very thin book but very impacting book called * to an ancient people: the autobiography of leopold cohn. a jewish man that i am friends with has read it and asked to keep it longer that he could read it again and found himself fascinated by the true account of this rabbi from hungary. he still muses about what he read a year ago. if you allow yourself to read it perhaps you will be able to see if the rabbi came to the right conclusion. God bless you jason.

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  7. Amen you’re a good brother in the Lord Tony, I do praise God for you daily. You know why? Because I’ve seen the Lord do an amazing work in your life and that gives me reason to GLORIFY His name.

    Woot woot 🙂

    I love all of you guys here, your’e my family.I have none so you stuck with me!

    Liked by 1 person

  8. just read it in my quiet time today.
    psalm 119:63 says:
    i am companion of all who fear You, and of those who keep Your precepts.
    God is Awesome. Jesus loves you-each and every one.
    \o/

    Liked by 1 person

  9. we’re all companions here,….God orchestrates, we abide in Him,….this is wonderful*//// also thanks for your kind words Colleen, sister in Yahweh’s love. //// i think we are all, in good hands, His hands through each other, yes God is good,…..soon we shall see Him*,…..this is incredible!

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  10. The Torah is Judaism’s most important text. It is composed of the Five Books of Moses and also contains the 613 commandments (mitzvot) and the Ten Commandments. The word “Torah” means “to teach.”

    If you believe in the Bible then you are already following the Torah, Just sayin.. Ya have to take the old with the New…

    Math.18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

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  11. amen Loop, and the talmud is the satanic version of the TORAH and the zohar n kabbalah are text books of mystery babylon through n through. blessings to you n your Loop for a safe n beautiful winter, we got a foot of pure white the night before thanksgiving,…Glory to God,…maggie was out parading thru the snowflake storm in her cute new fur coat,…OMG! we were feeding the neighbors chickens n ducks in the snow and mag was all excited! she looks like the little ‘sugar bear’ when the snow has its way w her*,…..GOD IS GOOD! Her n i need each other and we kiss and hug and pretty near make out! this little furry black dog w her little red tongue and her frosty the snowman button nose has set the trappers heart a flame*

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  12. Here’s another one Matt.So sad to witness .

    “Born again Christians should not be joining Roman Catholics in any spiritual enterprise or activity,” Mike Gendron of Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries told Christian News Network. “Paul called us to remain separate from unbelievers who embrace a false gospel. Light and darkness have nothing in common and there is no agreement between the temple of God and idols (2 Cor. 6:14-18).”

    “I believe Kirk knows that Roman Catholicism is a divisive issue among evangelicals and purposefully avoids it,” he said when asked about why he thinks Cameron might have failed to mention that Nicholas was Catholic. “The fact that the RCC ‘made’ Nicholas a saint should be a red flag to anyone who knows only God can convert sinners to saints by the sovereign work of His Spirit.”

    Gendron noted that Christmas in itself is a Roman Catholic holiday mixed with pagan traditions.

    “The word Christmas means the mass of Christ. The mass is a sacrifice where a wafer is said to become the physical body and blood of Jesus Christ. It is ritualistic slaying of Jesus Christ on an altar for the purpose of appeasing the wrath of God,” he said. “This is official Roman Catholic doctrine, and “Christmas” is a word that they invented for Christ’s mass. When people say, ‘Merry Christmas,’ they probably don’t know the meaning behind the greeting. They are mixing the holy name of Christ with a pagan holiday and a blasphemous representation of Christ on an altar.”

    He said that it is important that Christ be worshiped in spirit and in truth, and not just any way one pleases.

    “The Lord says His name must not be mixed with pagan idolatry: ‘My holy name you shall no more profane with your gifts and your idols’ (Ezekiel 20:39),” Gendron stated. “It is no wonder that Satan has influenced the world to blend paganism with the worship of God. Satan (which contains the same letters as Santa) has been diverting minds and hearts from a pure devotion to God and Christ since the Garden of Eden (2 Cor. 11:4).”

    The former Roman Catholic turned evangelist said that while he does not condemn those who choose to celebrate the day, he believes that Christians need to use discernment about the matter.

    http://christiannews.net/2014/11/12/kirk-cameron-raising-concerns-after-coming-out-in-support-of-santa-claus/

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  13. we should all do as the Spirit leads us. I don’t want to judge those who may be weaker in the faith (that think in favor of the “extras” and why–that is for them to do or not do with a clean conscience and not mine to determine) yet i know there is no point to a vain display just to make them feel better. my part is that i should be fully convinced in my own heart for the do or not do and why. just convinced in my mind that it be Jesus high and lifted up-just Him–without all the trappings. my tree decoration if you will has been a lonely cross out in the yard….but it is our changed lives (by the Power of His Gospel) that should be standing apart from whatever the world runs after. the world needs to see JESUS-a vertical view-not all the horizontal distraction that blurs His message. we make it about us when we insist on making a point of anything less than Him…and grieving the heart of God.

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  14. The cry of Isaiah as a man of unclean lips heeded the call.The Lord’s response to the cry of his heart is what keeps me in fear and trembling of a Holy God.

    Isaiah 6

    Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

    Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

    And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

    Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

    Jhn 3:19
    And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

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  15. When scripture is being fulfilled right before my very eyes. I take note. This is NOT about “making it about ourselves” , but a serious matter of clear apostasy!

    God help us in the day’s ahead.

    Isaiah 5: 20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

    “During a recent speech before hundreds of students at Liberty University, Cameron likewise made his case for St. Nicholas as being a Christian man of faith.”

    St Nicholcas? Gimme a break! So we make SAINTS of men? Come on , seriously !

    I’ve a confession to make. I had a serious childhood crush on Kirk Cameron.That changed a few years ago when I saw a serious departing from the faith. Christ told us to TEST the spirits. That’s a command I refuse to disqualify because it somehow interrupts with the IDOLS I’ve set up in my heart?

    God forbid!

    I read this verse in fear and trembling before a jealous God!

    1 John 2:19

    They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

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  16. I meant to add this verse.

    Ezekiel 14:4
    Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;

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  17. when people put the focus on anything/anyone other than Christ Jesus they are making it about themselves (their view of God rather than His word about Himself or some other worldly view) so God is not first-now more than ever because that is an apostate view. are you expecting me to mince words or do not not know what i meant to express hisown? sorry if you do not like my wording but it is the same view of Scripture just as yours is. i don’t judge these things for others-that part is not my job–God does that and i know how i am accountable to God. the gentlemen in the article above said he believes people need discernment- yes they sure do! Jesus is SAVIOR and LORD and all other things are competing when people do not let the focus be truly Him.

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  18. Andre he is doing what God has commanded us all to do. Test the spirit 🙂

    We sure are living in some pretty serious times.

    2 Timothy 4:3

    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

    I actually welcomed the thumbs down. Thank-you for whoever that was. It blessed me 🙂

    Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

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  19. we test the spirit for ourselves. not for other people. we all need discernment. many people in this present time might need a lot more than you already have but the Holy Spirit can do that prompt from within because He knows individual hearts better than you and i do. if you notice i am in agreement with you—-but i have to be careful with anothers’ heart. i had a dear relative who was a wonderful christian woman who blessed me with her much discernment in many things-a wonderful example of faith. she loved God’s Word and poured over it routinely. her prayers were a blessing to hear. she was a soul winner and generous heart and soul to share Jesus. He was her favorite subject – still is – even more now! she was one to lavishly celebrate christmas with lots of wonderful things-all the trimmings and gifts, basically the works-loved every minute of it…but you know hisown, there was no way to fault her love for Jesus though she went out of her way to make it a big deal. to her Jesus was the Big Deal even though she knew it probably was not even His real birthdate to begin with but all the extras to her were just how she wanted to show it during that season. (i thought it all a bit much from the outside looking in but i was different about that than her i guess-so what?). i do not think kirk cameron (though i really like and appreciate some things he has taken stands on) needs to go on a campaign to try to ‘save christmas american style’. he is holding to tradition that needs a serious rethink in my book-the days are evil and this is not the time to be unwise–the devil is working overtime and i think worse this whole thing a real stumbler for many-but perhaps this is why the whole issue is brought up (allowed by God) in his actions—people need to take a good look at their hearts and it’s affections! let’s hope folks will allow the Spirit to change their hearts about that as this season progresses! some may draw the right conclusion-likely many won’t. i know i need to stay sharp-and the iron to sharpen around here is good! that is where i see your heart coming from and you are absolutely right. like you i see the bent toward the apostasy of these dark times we are in—but———-i also think we need to be careful to let the Spirit judge another man’s servant as in romans 14:4 (actually 1-11) because sometimes that is a discernment issue for someone and not full blown apostasy–God knows that part. in some cases it could be obvious—-in other cases not so much and in that case we do well to err on the side of Grace. (i have to answer to the Lord for these things 😉 )

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  20. hi tony. yep. back and forth but forward >>> and upward ^^^ all the way amen? 🙂 we will be completed when we see JESUS. phil 1:6 comes to mind so Truth and Grace must have their way in me to truly grow as His disciple. the Lord is working in us all and aren’t we thankful! who doesn’t need sharpened? i sure do…
    hope things are well with you brother. i saw what you wrote above. i love the word companion too tony. that was the word that jumped off the page at me when i read it that morning. for us who know Jesus it is that Blood tie that has made us companions on the narrow way….

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  21. Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Rev 22:14

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  22. do i have to say how much i love you two southern gals in Christ, along w/ ALL the other beautiful/wonderful folks on this blog or have i already said enough. my eyes are full of tears. thanks so much, i’m hanging in there, giving thanks, encouraged and trustfully blessed,….edified! you KNOW how i feel. i couldn’t even begin to say enough. Thank you Lord for the Blood tie……keep us where you are, ALL of us together. OMG

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  23. prayer good people is requested by short-tribber for his wonderful lovely mother as she passes into eternity to be w/ the Lord Jesus forever in His care. God is Good and He honors our prayers*, amen

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  24. update Short tribbers ma has had a miraculous turn for the good! doctor called it unexplainable! Glory to our father!!! Spirit of God activated and moving in their family***,…………..WOW, beautiful is our Lord!

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  25. wow! what a praise report! thanks to the Lord for His Mercy!!!

    re: christmas…
    if compromising the Gospel of Jesus Christ then that is true.

    in essentials (the Gospel): unity
    in non-essentials: liberty
    in all things: love

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  26. yes indeed, our father gives mercy here n there and we are ever so thankful for substantial healings along the way. Praise you Lord God, stay w us all, teach us your ways, give us courage…fearlessness,…change us, shape us, conform us, strengthen us, guide us in accordance with your will. increase our faith*, never giving up n never losing hope. deliver us from evil and give us power to overcome temptation.,…continued blessings for your mom and yourself and entire family Rick, in Christ Jesus, amen my brother. Cheers!

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  27. What are your thoughts on this?
    The only list of 10 confederate nations or tribes anywhere in Scripture is in Psalm 83.
    These may be the ten heads or ten horns that attack Israel,,
    Territories occupied by the nations/tribes named in Psalm 83 and are all Muslim nations.
    1. Edom = Modern Jordan:
    2. Ishmaelite’s = Saudi Arabia;
    3. Moab = modern Jordan;
    4. Hagrites – area bordering modern Jordan and Saudi Arabia;
    5. Gebal — probably modern Golan Heights and nearby in Syria;
    6. Ammon in modern Jordan;
    7. Amalek in the modern Sinai peninsula and the Negev;
    8. Philistia — modern Gaza Strip, part of the Palestinian authority;
    9. Tyre in modern Lebanon;
    10. Assyria — modern Syria and Iraq.

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  28. that is an interesting take on that lafreak. need to give this some thought and study. thanks for this.

    also found this regarding the conversation above. david wilkerson, leonard ravenhill, and others talking about compromising the Gospel. the church of today is a far far cry from the first church-that we know. so very many tares among the wheat now. when Repentance is not preached & the Cross not lifted up to draw men to Faith in Jesus Alone then we know it is not the real Gospel people are hearing. persecution is coming and will truly sort out the true from the false won’t it? thanks to all of you here who keep the focus on the Lord Jesus.

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  29. yeah huh,..its all about being able to endure ‘ sound doctrine ‘….the actual truth! ////// the lie is going to be so enticing in its context,…so irresistible, beyond all other temptations that even Gods elect would embrace it if that were possible. Pray your name to be written in the Book of Life and repent daily – working out your salvation w/ fear and trembling……..i appreciate the link andrea….it reminds me of the powerful southern preacher that sermon’d so strongly – that colleen linked to some time back, not too long ago…wasn’t his name rex,,,,his sermon was about being converted versus being christianized and it floored me. blessings*

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  30. I’m back from Oregon :banana:

    Can ya’ll tell so far that God Mightily had his way :banana: Oh yeah 🙂 Miracles after blessings and Blessings after Miracles. :banana:
    Momma, in the natural world and realm, should not have made it thru the night. She should have gone into a coma or died if not for God’s Mighty Hand. She had a stroke, but nothing of it’s effect exist Now! Doctors were baffled, stunned, “There is No Explanation for this”, is what they said!
    Utterly and completely Healed, as though the stroke Never Happened!
    🙂 🙂 🙂
    My little sister, who is an atheist, was there to witness it all, she’s getting closer to believing now 😉

    Well, let me tell ya, there’s too much to list on what God has done and is now doing because of what happened to Mom.
    I’ll not go into detail about how my Mom and Dad have had the love and beauty in their marriage restored…..but it’s just glorious. 🙂

    My cousin’s son (Dilan) was in the hospital room during a portion of the time that my mother had not yet recovered, he returned to Christ from his wonderings away from Him that night. 🙂 when he came over to visit Mom the night before last, we put in a worship and praise music DVD and my Mom stayed in the room for a while as my Dad, Dilan, and I worshipped and praised God.
    Staying around for any time of talking of God or Christian activities is not something my Mom would usually do, but she did 😀 She left for a little while to go dilly dally in the kitchen, but She Came back In 🙂

    She still has need of a lively faith to grow in her into the Absolute Realization of God’s love and mercy for her, but she’s getting very close to that understanding brothers and sisters 🙂

    Sorry I couldn’t report sooner, I can’t communicate when I’m away from my home computer and I just got back home last night.

    Blessings, love and thanks for all the prayers…..they surely have been wonderfully and powerfully answered 🙂

    ST

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  31. “I’m back from Oregon :banana: ”
    that should have been a “Dancing Banana” from FP site…ya’ll know what I’m talking about I think.

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  32. Glory of God!!! the God of Miracles accomplishing the impossible! thanks for the update. what a privilege it is to pray for one another in the Name above all names 🙂 …and oh how precious is the work of the Spirit. may He have the free reign in the hearts of your family members to know by faith the Lord and Christ Who raises the dead to life again!

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  33. purely wonderful testimony of the Love of God and that Faith can move mountains,…Praise you Father God! Stay confident in Him fully Rick as Jesus continues to move in your blessed family. by golly when the holy ghost starts a fallin’, miracles* happen!!!, for those who trust in the Lord. God is Good. Believers, keep on believing……..

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  34. i’ve seen them bananas dancin’ up a storm over at FP,….rejoicing in sweet victory, yahoo! Keep on Praising Him!, the one with arms wide open!

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  35. Vic, since you said no thanks to Torah, where does Scripture ever teach the Torah was going to end? Anywhere? All the prophets speaking about Yeshua, did any of them ever say the Torah was to end? Did Yeshua ever say the Torah was going to end? Doesn’t the books of Torah tell us the commandments, ordinances and decrees are forever? How long is forever? We are told in Ezekiel all gentiles will be assigned to a tribe. Isaiah 2 and 66 as well as Zechariah and Ezekiel teach the Torah will be followed in the Millenial. Does it make sense that the Torah is to be followed, then not followed, but followed again? No!
    G-d forbid!

    The great commission in Matthew 28 is to make disciples and teach them all that I commanded you. Rev 14:12 says Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of G-d and their faith in Yeshua. Per Ezekiel 11 & 36 we are told the Spirit will lead us in following the Torah. Jeremiah 31:31-33 and Hebrews 8 & 10 tell us the Torah was placed on your heart. Why would the Torah be placed on your heart if not to be followed?

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  36. Agie95, you are derailing the subject. In short, Christ alone is my salvation. Not Christ AND the law. This site is open for many discussions but I do not smile on the false Hebrew Root movement. I do not add to Christs complete work on the cross.

    Tony Tigre, I will get back to you shortly.

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  37. um, I am not Hebrew Roots, I am a Jew who has faith in Yeshua. Funny, how you point out that my post is not following in the manner of the original post, but there are other posts that do not either….do not see you pointing that out to them. I would also state that following Torah is right up the article’s avenue. Following Torah means not following the nations in their heathen ways…like Christmas.

    Since this is a mainly a prophecy website, what do you do with Rev 14:12 – Here is the perseverance of the saints who KEEP the commandments of God AND their FAITH in Yeshua.

    1 John 2:4-6 – The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

    Hmm..whomever says I know Him but does not keep the commandments is a liar…

    You see I am not talking about salvation. That was Yeshua…I am talking obedience. Just trying to show you the truth. If you would have ignored the original post, I would have moved on, but you basically told G-d no thanks to the Torah which was stated many times that it is forever. How long is forever? Until Yeshua comes?

    The rainbow is a sign forever. Is it still good today since forever is not necessarily forever? When you start getting rid of somethings but not all things you run into problems.

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  38. Sorry Agie95, I thought your post was on another thread. My mistake.

    Agie95, if you are a born again Christian and the Holy Spirit lives in you then the law or Torah as you want to call it is written in your heart. This is the New Covenant in Christ Agie95. The Lord God Himself will cause you to follow His law.

    Jeremiah 31:32-34 “…not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”…

    And that is why I said “No thanks” to the Torah. How can anyone put himself under the law again if he is free in Christ. Free, not to sin but free to serve Him in Spirit and truth.

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  39. No problem. Where did Christ free us from the Torah? Christ freed us from the penalty we deserve. Notice in the verse you quoted I will put may law (Hebrew – Torah) within you.

    Similarly Ezekiel 11:19-20 – And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their G-d.

    Ezekiel 36:26-27-Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

    The Spirit causes believers to walk in His statutes and to be careful to observe His ordinances. You can then bring this understanding while reading Romans 7:25-8-17.

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  40. at first glance i am thinking that vic and agie95 are trying to arrive at and say the same thing. is that the case?
    love fulfills the law (torah as you call it agie95) and the Power of the Holy Spirit is the source of the power to keep it–in Spirit first and then in practice. it is the Lord’s Love shed abroad in our hearts to enable us to please God rather than men (& ourselves) and shed abroad in our hearts to make us able to fulfill that very law of Love in our motives as to what we think, do and say. The law has been worked into us and worked out by us in the Power of the Spirit in Christ Jesus-Who Alone could truly keep it-our full supply from God to live in His Righteousness.

    Jesus summed up everything for us in this didn’t He?
    Mat 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
    Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
    Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
    Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

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  41. Andre’, the response from Yeshua were quotes from the Tanakh (Deut 6:5 & Lev. 19:18). Love has always and will always be a part of the law. Within Judaism, the ten commandments are thought to be a summary of the entire law. Then the two mentioned above are a further summary (just as Yeshua was saying) and just love itself as the highest summary level. Yeshua is not saying these two commandments replace all the other ones. If He did, then He would have sinned and also went against His own words in Matthew 5:17-20. For Deut 12:32 says – See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it (Deut 4:2 does as well).

    If love was the only commandment, then why would He tell them in the great commission Matt. 28:19-20 – to make disciples (students) and teach them to observe all I have commanded you. Why would Paul take a Nazarite vow and sacrifice animals in Acts 21 to prove he followed Torah if the Torah/law is summed up in love? Why was Peter considering certain animals unclean approx 15 years after Yeshua was resurrected in Acts 10?

    Love may cover a multitude of sins, but it does not replace the Torah.

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  42. dear agie95, maybe i was not clear. Love is the motive that makes us able to do what is Right and for the Right Reason in what we Think, Say, and Do. (and why we know we need Jesus) if i love the Lord first expressing this in the vertical in prayer and worship-focused with Him as the One to worship-then i am motivated to please Him and then it’s expression goes horizontal to treat others as i myself want to be treated. looking at the 10 commandments I see how to rightly relate to God and to my fellow man. those 10 are the best sum up for all of what life issues would entail. i do not mean Love like it is an emotional thing to put that limitation on it but it is a Righteousness thing and feelings may (and hopefully do) follow-to do right by others as i would like done to me. Jesus summed that up for us and that is good enough for me. i would think that paul and peter were simply following their convictions for a certain time and place in mindfulness of others but was not a practice they were always doing as paul rebuked peter for eating kosher with jewish brethren when he was also accustomed to eat non-kosher with gentile believers. (do not call unclean what God has called clean was what God was opening the understanding to). clearly their faith and convictions were evolving–the freedom they had in Christ was something to grow to. isn’t that true for us today as we grow in Christ? that has been true for me in things i choose to do or not do today because my convictions were not always like they are now. Jesus has kept the law for us and we are not bound to it–but bound to HIM. that is my security—–He is the Lawkeeper for me the lawbreaker. so humbling and so freeing at the same time amen?

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  43. by the way agie95, it is in gal ch 2 that paul is confronting peter for being hypocritical that he (peter) let it seem that he( as a jew) was making a difference between himself and gentile believers-that was paul’s problem with peter in that instance because it was not about what was eaten or not eaten. peter did not have to be a hypocrite about it, he was free already. so please know i am not saying you have to change your convictions to fit mine. when not talking about salvation itself, then in our freedom in Christ, we have the liberty to be different from each other, but our hearts should be the same in giving Glory to God in all we do, with thankfulness and fully persuaded in our minds.
    i am a work in progress tony. and glad for the things God continues to do in my heart. like you had said in an earlier post somewhere…..more of You Jesus. amen to that.

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  44. Paul was saying something to Peter about removing himself from the gentiles when certain Jews came in. Basically, Peter was concerned about being seen eating with the gentiles. Not sure where you got the eating kosher and not eating kosher. Your quote about do not call clean what I call clean misses the mark. What was called clean was the gentiles…not the unclean animals Acts10:28. No where in Scripture is pig considered clean. In fact, in Isaiah 66:17 (still future prophecy) we are told “Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord. So to say that all food is clean is false.

    To say their faith and convictions were evolving is again something you have inserted and is not so clear. It was well into Paul’s ministry, definitely after Galatians, that Paul was proving, by a Nazarite vow, that he still followed Torah – Acts 21. This was his perfect opportunity to say I am teaching others not to follow Torah. You don’t have to anymore, b/c Yeshua did it for us. He defended himself by calling himself a Pharisee in ch23, then in ch25, I believe, he states he did not violate the Torah, temple or Caeser’s laws.

    David and James call the Torah liberty, yet you say the opposite. One other question, in all the prophecies about the Messiah, can you find one that says the Torah will no longer need to be followed b/c of the Messiah? Can you find anywhere, where someone said the only commandment you have to follow is love? The commandments are never split between the common ways so many people split them. Words like levitical laws, mosaic laws, etc.

    John 14:15 – If you love Me, you will keep My commandments
    John 14:21 – He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.
    John 15:10 – If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
    1 John 2:3-6 – By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

    1 John 5:2-3 – By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

    You see it cannot be just love and all else is covered. What is sin? Lawlessness (1 John 3:4) – not following Torah. There is not other measure for sin. Paul says should we sin more so grace will abound? G-d forbid!!!

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  45. amen andrea,…great paragraph you worded above here w/ respect to the liberty to be different from one another, with our hearts beating as one, so to speak, in Christ, in giving glory to God….

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  46. ok agie95 i didn’t phrase that the best but what i mean was food that was considered ok by jewish standards and foods that are not. yes the gentile believers were considered clean in Christ but if you will think for a moment breaking bread together is something the church was/is to do in loving fellowship and when jewish believers were joined in the same group with gentile believers are you telling me that they could not eat what was set in front of them if not approved by the jews? making a difference in that as well as the people themselves? then what of romans 14? and you mention in those verses the Love that obeys. yes it does. do you think that paul would not have eaten a ham dinner if that was all the poor gentiles had to share with their beloved brother in Christ? i believe he put people ahead of food or other issues as long as it was not sin. and didn’t the apostles say that as long as they were abstaining from sexual sin and they could eat as long as it was not knowingly offered to an idol first as acts 15 goes into about issues concerning circumcision and other concerns the jewish believers had? was it timothy or titus (can’t remember) that was not circumcised but part of paul’s ministry and doing the work of the Lord? they did not set a ton of rules about everything. i believe paul would have let love cover the whole thing and not make a difference so that all that was understood between the whole bunch was the Spirit Who was in them and mere food was a much lesser issue. i think in the Grace of the Lord Jesus there is Grace for all of the circumstances they and we are in and the Spirit gives us proper conviction as we grow in over time in our walk with the Lord helping us know what pleases God.

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  47. you two are having a thoughtful debate here with awesome use of scripture and sound minded reasoning. i am lad to be listening to it and very glad agie95 has shown up with some challenging viewpoints and able to present them so well. i wonder about this subject in my spirit.

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  48. No where in Scripture is pig or another unclean food called clean. In my opinion, the Acts 15 council meeting set forth 4 (really 5) things. These 5 things: 1. things contaminated with idols – food 2. fornification (which if you read some they can turn this into a food issue, but I won’t here) 3. things strangled – improperly killed – food. 4. from blood – food again. So 3 out of the 4 definitely have to do with food. Why start out with food related items? Does that make any sense? Yes, b/c if you are going to have relations with someone, food is always a common part of the meetings. I want to point out that blood is in the meat of most beef that you eat due to the way it is killed. Cows blood vessels break during the electric shocks and other treatment of cows being slaughtered. Therefore, blood is absorbed into the meat. Some people take joy in eating bloody sausage – two issues there, but I digress.

    Now, I mentioned 5 things. The fifth item is not usually seen and the verse is skipped over by a lot of people trying to defend not keeping the commandments. v21 – For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.” So the fifth item that was expected of them was to be in the synagogue every Sabbath. What would happen every Sabbath? The Torah portion is read. So every year, the entire Torah, first 5 books of the Bible, is read in service.

    Romans 14. Romans 14 is not dealing with food. The first half is dealing with fasting. Remember in Luke 18 the pharisee prayer about look at me I fast twice a week and the question to Yeshua about why do His disciples not fast. If I remember correctly, Paul deals with this issue somewhere else, but I cannot specifically recall, but some were saying they were better b/c they fasted on these days vs other days.

    Starting in v14 Paul starts dealing with unclean. Now, first please go look at the Greek. The word for unclean here is koinos which actually means common not unclean. Koinos is also used in Peter’s vision. Peter says both unclean and common. Different versions of the Bible translate those words differently but unclean is akathartos and common is koinos. What is common? Common is a clean food that become contaminated somehow. Maybe sacrificed to another god or dies naturally, or is killed in some other manner like an animal fight. Paul is dealing with something (we do not know what), about food becoming common and some having issues with it.

    Is it okay to eat common food? No! Two of the assemblies in Revelation 2:14, Pergamum, and v20 Thyatira – both have this against them – eat things sacrificed to idols.

    Acts 15 was about being circumcised to be saved. v1 – Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” We know that is not the truth. Circumcision is a commandment, but it is not required to be saved. This is a walk, meaning you are not expected to do all commandments at once. You have to know about them first. Hence the verse I gave above regarding Acts 15.

    You write about love as if it was not a commandment in the first place. I have already shown how it cannot be just love. If you love Me you will follow My commandments-John 14:15. Does it makes sense to say If you love Me you will follow love?

    I did not see a response the questions – in all the prophecies about the Messiah, can you find one that says the Torah will no longer need to be followed b/c of the Messiah? Can you find anywhere, where someone said the only commandment you have to follow is love?

    I will add one more, can you find one verse, in context, that says you no longer have to follow the law/Torah?

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  49. I want to point out when you go to one of those asian restaurants and they have little buddha or something sitting out and there is food on a plate for it. All the food is dedicated to that god. We are forbidden to eat of it.

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  50. We are not forbidden to eat it. You are in error. Agie, if you want to be bound under tons of sacraficial laws, so be it. But please do not puy those who are free in Christ under those burden.

    Peolpe, eat as you wish. Just thank God for it.

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  51. Okay, I just quoted Revelation 2:14 and 20 which says But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, TO EAT THINGS SACRIFICED TO IDOLS… For Pergamum and Thyatira this is not ok, but for Vic’s house it is ok.

    Go ahead Vic, tell people to go against Scripture. You are not free in Christ to sin.

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  52. Tony, interesting you mention your spirit. Here is a drash for you regarding the spirit from Ezekiel and tying into Romans…

    Ezekiel 11:19-21-And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within
    them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give
    them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My
    ordinances and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be
    their God. 21 But as for those whose hearts go after their detestable
    things and abominations, I will bring their conduct down on their
    heads,” declares the Lord God.

    This is the renewal covenant…what you call the New Testament. What happens is Hashem is going to give a new heart (circumcised) and give them a new spirit (ruach hakodesh – holy spirit). What will this new spirit do? That they may walk in My statues and keep my ordinances and do them. For those whose are go after detestable things and abominations, I will bring their conduct down on their heads.

    Ezekiel
    36:24-32 – 24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all
    the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle
    clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all
    your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a
    new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart
    of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My
    Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 You will live in the land that I
    gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your
    God. 29 Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on
    you. 30 I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the
    field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 I am not doing this for your sake,” declares the Lord God, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!”

    Again, the renewal covenant. What will the spirit put in you do? Cause you to walk in My statutes and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. Reread v31 and 32.

    Jeremiah 31:31-34-to shorten this a little, pls read in Bible. Now, what does it state….place the Torah on your heart.

    Ok. so the renewal covenant is going to place a spirit in you to cause you to follow His statutes and ordinances. These are words that are used for commandments. He will place the Torah on your heart as well. Now, lets go to Romans 7:25-Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the
    other, with my flesh the law of sin.

    Paul in his flesh serves the law of sin, but in his mind the Law of HaShem. Take in mind there is no division of the Law into compartments like you and others do. The Torah (Law) is all of it. Lets go on to ch 8. There is no condemnation for those in Yeshua. Why? b/c we are saved by grace…For the law of of the Spirit of Life in Yeshua has set you free from the law of sin and death.

    v4-so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

    Those walking according to the flesh follow the law of sin. Those walking in the Spirit – the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us. Just like Yeshua fulfilled the Law we are to as well. Fulfill means live out….not abolish.

    v5-For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

    What are the things of the Spirit? Ezekiel 11& 36 tell us…the
    statutes and ordinances. The very things you wan to get rid of.

    v6-For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, mind set on the Spirit is life. We are told over and over again in the Torah that life is doing the Lord’s commandments. This means you have emunah already and you choose to have life…follow the commandments.

    v7-9-because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

    A mind set on the flesh is hostile toward HaShem. Why? for it does not subject itself to the law of HaShem…and you cannot please HaShem. However you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of HaShem dwells in you.

    The gospel is the same today as it was 2,000 to 3,000 years ago per Hebrews 4. The gospel is not Yeshua and the sacrifice for us. Sorry it is not. It is a very critical part of our salvation, but it is not the
    gospel. The gospel is freeing us from slavery to sin and starting a
    relationship with us. This relationship is a covenant relationship.
    The parameters of the renewal covenant did not change. What changed was HaShem placing the Spirit and Torah within us.

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  53. Agie, please stop to use my site as a platform for your strange teachings. Tony, please be careful not to be burdened under an unnecessary yoke.

    FOOD SACRIFICED TO IDOLS:
    1 COR 8:1 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up,(As Agie95 shows with Torah) but love builds up.
    2 The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know.
    3 But the man who loves God is known by God. 4 So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one.
    5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
    6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
    7 But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled.
    8 But food does not bring us near to God; (See Agie95, eat what you want) we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.
    9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. (Dont be weak Tony)
    10 For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, won’t he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols?
    11 So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge.
    12 When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.
    13 Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.

    BURDENED BY THE LAW (TORAH)
    Freedom in Christ
    GALATIANS 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
    2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.
    3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.
    4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. (I will not take that chance Agie95. That is why I say NO to your Torah teachings)
    5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope.
    6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
    7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? (Agie95 maybe trying to put us under the Torah/law burden again)
    8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you.
    9 “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.”
    10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be. (That is a warning Agie95)
    11 Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished.
    12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
    13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.
    14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” (Mmmm Agie95, the Torah is sumed up in one command? Why try to burden us then with more?)
    15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
    Life by the Spirit
    16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
    17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.
    18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. (Again Agie95, we are NOT under the Torah. )
    19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
    20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
    21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
    25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
    26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

    This is the truth Agie95. This truth will let no babe in Christ stumble. This is the teachings of Paul and this is the stand of Unsealed Prophecy.

    Subject closed.

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  54. thanks vic for the stand you took and the sum up. Love in Christ unburdens us that we may be freely in the world……but not of it. i was trying to answer the best i knew how and i am, like you are, thankful for my freedom in Christ Jesus.

    all the best to you agie95. 🙂

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  55. Agie95, please stop to use this blog as your platform to teach. You are welcome to start your own blog at wordpress.com. And yes, I did and will again delete your teaching comments. Thank you.

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  56. Can you tell me why the post was deleted? Was it false? Did I take a verse out of context?

    Again, I never would have said another thing if you would have said no thanks.

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  57. your response is entirely cute and so funny Colleen!,….that quacked me up!! ////…….. i was thinkin’ along the lines of her becoming ”unique’ in all the world” to him?,…sounds nice? a lot nicer than all her continuous quacking over everything in sight,……..give me a break! JAH please come to the crossroads,…..set all the peoples free. /\/\/\/\….i can tell ‘maggie’ apart from all the little black cocker spaniels in the whole wide world!, she is the special one the Lord has sent to me*, and i’m a believer!………… heck, and i thought love was only true in fairy tales

    l

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