The Daily Sacrifice – the Tamid

All around the world we see the growing evil as the weight of sin takes its toll on a world that seems all too happy to give itself over to depravity of every kind. We know that some day soon the God of the Universe will pour out his wrath on this and bring justice to the place where evil has been allowed to flourish. I’m not writing about Syria – it seems to be balanced on a razors edge, a country filled with horrors of every kind as evil is unleashed and it takes its toll on so many in there – and is about to be multiplied as the President of my country weighs his options for a military attack.

This post is not about that – it is about the words that God has given us through the prophets, and from the lips of his only Son that will tell us when the time has come for his return.

For a long time I speculated, with great uncertainty about what this meant:

From the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1, 290 days. Daniel 12:11 HCSB

I’m still speculating, but something I’ve been watching in the news I get each day has my attention. I was always puzzled – by the term “the daily sacrifice” – did it mean the slaughter of a lamb in the temple, was it something that was about to happen some Passover (and then didn’t?). I guess I’m not that smart because I kept on looking at all these high holy days for the people of Israel to renew their tradition of sacrifice when I should have been digging a little deeper than that.

A couple weeks ago I was scanning through my facebook newsfeed and saw something from the Temple Institute –



What caught my eye is that they kept mentioning training the Kohanim for the “Tamid”. I had seen that word before – it took me a while to remember.. ok I had to Google it – to realize that I’d seen that word before in Daniel 12:11, Daniel 8:11-13, and Daniel 11:31.

Now it was bugging me – why hadn’t I noticed this before that the daily sacrifice meant a daily service by the priests at the Holy Temple. I went back to my concordance again – how many times did this show up in scripture – 104 times… ugh.. that’s going to be a lot to dig through, but then I started noticing something – it meant a few different things and only in a few places was It written a certain way


and then did it mean daily sacrifice – in Daniel and in Numbers 28 where the scriptures spell out specifics about the daily offerings and those to be made on holy days in addition to the daily. So my point is – this scripture points to that prescription for what the priests are to do each day in the Temple. Got it.

Now back to what got my attention – The Temple Institute started training the Kohanim (men who can trace their ancestry to Aaron), to perform the Tamid – or daily sacrifice. I’m still trying to wrap my mind around what this means. They claim they are doing “dry runs”, “training”, “practice”, they used a fake sheep – but they are doing it and from the articles I’m reading it sounds like they are doing it regularly now if not every day.  I guess this makes me wonder out loud – do we still need a temple to be built? Part of me hopes yes – what a sign that would be of the days we live in if a new temple would stand on the foundations of the Temples built by Solomon and Ezra.

Go to their website – or visit them on Facebook at to see a LOT more.

What if though, the Kohanim were doing this every day, and by some future turn of events their ability to do this was taken away by forces from the Antichrist regime. Perhaps they would say if it become widely publicized, that it’s “too provocative” or “too offensive” to muslim sensibilities who fear that the Jews will demolish their mosque and rebuild a temple. Would that be taking away the daily sacrifice in God’s eyes, taking away of the Tamid? I don’t know, but this development seems to bring us a lot closer to the day we are all anxiously awaiting, the day our Savior’s foot is firmly planted on the Mount of Olives to establish his kingdom here on earth.

I also saw this the other day:

Area Near Al-Aqsa Mosque Collapses

Israel might not have to demolish the buildings that stand there now – they might collapse due to the muslims own foolishly building on unsteady foundations, or God himself may decide that those particular celebrations of man’s depravity have stood their long enough.

A picture of the hole:

We all know what comes next- the abomination of desolation is set-up on a wing of the temple – then as my current favorite TV personality Silas Robertson says, “It’s on like Donkey Kong!”


263 thoughts on “The Daily Sacrifice – the Tamid

  1. The Hebrew translation, word for word, does not have the words “The Temple” in the original text.

    As this is mentioned below and in so many translations…..

    “We all know what comes next- the abomination of desolation is set-up on a wing of the temple ”

    I recommend that each person look up the Word “Wing/Wings”(as it is found in Daniel 9:27) in your concordance and see how it is used and in how many places……you might be surprised that it is Never mentioned Once as a “Wing” of “The Temple”……….not Once.

    Like I said….it’s just Added in to Later Translations…… connect Strict Eschatological Dispensational dots together.

    Just say’n……Temple not needed to fulfill coming events IMO.


  2. further evidence of the truth of ” things to come “, what an unusually good find Rob! it does say , ” the end will come in like a flood “! very all of a sudden, QUICK, all at once. Thanks for the ? heads up! watchfulness!, amen. This is incredible interesting to consider in light of all else that we see happening around us. my whiskers!


  3. I agree with you, Shorttribber.
    I don’t believe either, that a temple is needed for the AoD to take place.
    Much of this (mis)understanding I believe has come about by eisegesis/reading into the text. As you say, ‘to connect eschatological dots’. A dangerous way of reading the Bible (in fact that’s the way Satan reads it).

    When Scripture talks of ‘temple’, I’ve learnt it uses two different terms: ‘naos’ and ‘hieron’. I believe the former is used of the ‘temple’ of the body of Christ, and that ‘hieron’ is used for the physical temple building in Jerusalem? So it could be understood as Antichrist seating himself in the midst of the ‘church’, claiming to be god/divine.
    (We all see an antecedent to this in the papal claims of ‘Holy Father’ and ‘Vicar of Christ’. Or is this perhaps the ‘real deal’ already?)

    Anyways, why in the world do so many (western) Christians believe God would want to sit in a (third) temple (in the Millennium) that was in effect built by the antichrist???????
    If David was disqualified, why do they think the Antichrist would qualify to build it?
    It doesn’t add up.

    All those looking for a temple as a sure sign of the times, may end up looking in vain.
    Come to think of it, this very confusion happened once before: when Christ spoke of ‘tearing down the temple, and raising it up again’ He was referring to His own body. Yet people wrongly believed He was speaking of the physical stone edifice.
    Could we see something similar regarding the ‘temple’ the second time around too?


  4. Two years ago I wrote a post called “Of rebuilt temples and stopping of sacrifice” that voice my thoughts on the subject. It can be read here:

    Like Ingela I have also noticed the difference between “naos” and “hieron” and I also came to the conclusion that the end time temple can be the church. But with the Temple Institute in play I will not disregard a sacrifice system that may be stopped in the future.


  5. I agree no temple is needed since the texts aren’t worded such the require a physical thirt temple- but it would really be an obvious thing to point to, since the words don’t excluded either. I really like the study Vic did on this a couple years ago referenced above.

    The event I should have highlighted more clearly is that we have Kohanim performing Tamid (which is explicitly in the text). If we have a stopping of the Tamid (even if they are still calling it a practice of it) do we have a fulfillment of prophecy?


  6. You’re right Vic.
    We can’t exclude the possibility of the Jews being allowed (as part of a ‘piece’ deal?) to commence sacrificing on the Temple Mount.
    It could be something as visible as that: Jesus says ‘when you SEE tese things…’

    On the other hand, we have to be vigilant for something less visible.


  7. Oh, Justasheep, that’s interesting.
    I didn’t know what the original Hebrew said.

    Yes, they do have a portable altar ready. So it’s possible even today.
    Interesting in conjunction to the fall feasts. And also interesting in relation to the upcoming tetrad blood moon ‘signs in the heavens’.
    We have to keep watching.


  8. Mr Sheep, that is very interesting. If the Tamid is stopped in the near future, it will be plausible to say that prophecy is fulfilled. This is something that needs to be watched.


  9. “Mr Sheep, that is very interesting. If the Tamid is stopped in the near future, it will be plausible to say that prophecy is fulfilled. This is something that needs to be watched”

    That’s right………..just the word “Daily” is in the text….the word “Sacrifce” was added in Later…..just as in my previous post mentions….that the word “Temple” was added in Later.


  10. That’s mostly right, but the same word the same Hebrew characters do clearly mean daily sacrifice in Numbers 28 – so it’s not entirely correct to give English tranlslators a hard time about including the word sacrifice. Elsewhere almost a hundred times in the text it is spelled slightly differently and is often translated “continuously”.


  11. Sure, but come on, One out of a Hundred?……….it is natural to make the connecting idea, no fault in that, but that also in Interpreting rather than translating.

    God knew they (Translators and folks in general) would do that though…..and I believe that’s one of the ways The Prophecy and Vision has remained Sealed Up.


  12. Agreed – check out the temple institute web page and Facebook page, they appear to have a very clear picture of what Tamid is.


  13. this is so interesting-and timely-goes along with what has been on my mind. i agree with you shorttribber and ingela-no third temple required but definitely jews are getting their rituals ready like rob is pointing out from his post and somehow i believe that comes into play. matthew 24:15 Jesus said:…standing in the holy place…..with temple mount carved up in a political “piece” deal as ingela coins the phrase those players will all have rules to go by from “you know who” (maybe islam gets a slice-the jews get their slice [[then daily sacrifice (rituals?) taken away]]-apostate christianity (headed up by the pope?) gets a “piece of the pie” too?? just thinking out loud again–but wonder is anyone else aware of the spot on temple mount that the muslims built a little border around that they are very very afraid of called the dome of the spirits? what is interesting about that is that it is a spot that when solomon’s temple measurements are applied to it it is where the holy of holies was (?) where that ark was behind the curtain-when the lay out of the temple is applied to that it faces the eastern gate where Messiah (coming out of the eastern sky) will enter-when the veil was rent at Jesus’ death the eastern sun shined right into the temple and into where the ark had once rested (in jeremiah’s time before it was hidden by him and revealed as gone when the veil was rent). also noteworthy is when solomon’s temple was measured out the current spot where the muslim’s mosque is was the outer court-court of the gentiles. so this is why i think that it won’t be necessary for a third temple to be built but there is a holy place up there that might be where anti-christ wants to stand to desecrate it and call himself god. i’m not stating these things as what will happen as i do not know that as certain but may be plausible in the light of what this post from justasheep is highlighting at the moment. we’ll see as they say. thanks for the good discussion. i appreciate what people are seeing about all to see if Scripture will support it or not.


  14. Anybody check out the meaning of “Wing/Wings/Overspreading” yet?

    Look how many times That Word is used, and what it is used for……Primarily Actual Wings (Cherubim’s/Eagle’s/Covering Wings) or the Border of a Priestly Garment.

    Just say’n


  15. Hi Tribber, when you point out that the word, “overspreading” is used instead of “wing”, it allows my mind to see the temple as ” us “. We the believers make up the temple and the overspreading comes upon us as satan makes a move on the church body. i am just wondering how this translates out???


  16. Thanks Andre –

    I’ve seen many of the same things in the temple literature I’ve been reviewing, about the positionof the Holy of Holies, the Court of the Gentiles and such. Thanks for adding that detail in.


  17. Interesting takes, everyone (and simultaneous too)!
    André, you’re not alone in your musings on the ‘carving up’ of the holy places.

    Anyone read about ‘the Jerusalem Initiative’? Apparently a solution with some kind of ‘neutral’ guardianship over Jerusalem’s Old City, and the ‘Holy Sites’, by none other than: ‘His uttermost woshipfulness’ the Pope! (Sorry for the sarcasm there.)


  18. Yes, and still it has managed to slip below the radar…
    Yet, nothing new here.
    Papal Rome has had ambitions on J’lem since way back.

    As Brother Brian says: Time will tell.


  19. Tony, I’m not familiar with it. And the title alone deters me from even wanting to investigate further. For my own good, I steer clear of all kabbalism, or ‘hidden knowlege’.

    I prefer revealed knowledge!


  20. its on a youtube channel called the rape of justice,…………TO ELIMINATE THE OPIATE,……….but not to push it on you, just thought you’d be interested. i trust Barry Chamish, so far,…thats why i steered you to his summary of antelmans work at that site.


  21. And good you do!
    I used to read ‘that kind of stuff’ a couple of years back. But have found it more disturbing than helpful. It didn’t instill faith, but rather worry. So I didn’t find the fruits that good.

    To be honest, I’m very tired, as I just opened up my laptop because of sleeplessnes. But now I feel my eyelids dropping… Nite nite.


  22. your probably right and what you have stated will stick with me, no doubt, even as i sometimes gravitate towards this info base out of curiosity, from time to time. Again, thank you Ingela and good nite.


  23. you didn’t have to say that,……..but boy does that make me thankful. You are so very nice Andrea. I almost just can’t get over it, but hey, i’ve got to get over it! How else can i go on with my life! If you knew the joy that i receive from you all, and the warmth…wow wee! Good nite to you too Andrea. i sure do like you as a person and as my sister in the Lord Jesus. Thank You and God Bless. We got rain and thunder tonite,…i love it! i’m sleepin’ with little ole’ maggie! my hearts delight! she is truly precious! n we have Jesus! sweet dreams…….


  24. You lot are precious! 🙂
    Guess you’re all tucked in for the night…?

    Well, I’m up bright and early, trying to shine some light on the ‘outpouring[s]’ going on over here. The pastor who runs the Swedish watch site, has received near threats for speaking out against it. You’re all familiar with the ‘don’t touch God’s anointed’, right? Well, it gets thrown around a lot…


  25. I’ll do what I can….I’ve found it’s original arrangement at least according to the Masoretic text by using my Hebrew Greek English Interlinear.

    Here’s how it reads in it….with Strong’s word numbers beside the text.

    here is the best word for word i could find from Hebrew directly into English of the section for discussion.

    and upon as wings (3671)abominations(8251)desolation/astonishment (8074) even until (5704) end (3617) and that decreed (2782) shall outpour (5413) on the desolator (8074)

    I’ll do more looking to see if I can find more


  26. the link I just provided is for a ….Westminster Leningrad Codex

    I have no idea really, how close it is to the Masoretic text, or even if it is in itself some form of Masoretic text.


  27. Tony, you make me chuckle…
    And actually, he who humbles himself will be lifted up.
    So if you say you’re the last thing anybody needs – then I would just hear our Good Shepherd say: ‘Good. I have a use for you’.


  28. sounds wonderful,…and it really looks like maggie needs me extra right now,…she must of slipped and hurt herself,…physically it shows as she is unable to jump/climb up into the cars or onto the couch etc.She is as sweet as a little lamb and to me / us she is sooo important n precious. She’ll be allright,…my son tony informed me that she seems to be hurt in her leg or hip or? her back. please say a prayer for her and thanks. Happy Rosh ha Shannah!!! Bless You All,in Christ Jesus.


  29. ever since Andrea said goodnite to me, or actually, nite nite,….i can’t seem to get the song,”somewhere over the rainbow” out of my head! now that is something very nice! Praise God! Hi Andrea!!! God be with you and yours, all of you.,…from your daddy and your mama on down.


  30. …also, just wanting to say and point out; Rich Petersons Research into the Alliance of Civilizations is superb! no doubt. His link off of this site can get you there,..its a time, times and half a time. If interested, when you get there, go back to his beg. point 2007 and go forward. His research is commendable,…it will blow you away and,i believe, put things into perspective – somehow. You’ll see,……..this is for real – what he has dug up. Blessings


  31. hi tony 🙂 my momma and daddy are fine so thanks for that blessing upon my family (my 3 sons need to be saved–forgiven and born-again-i pray for them to come by faith to Jesus soon). i know we all probably have loved ones who are not under the Blood as yet but i pray and wait for the Spirit’s Conviction to lead them to the Cross and be born anew. my daddy and i are still working on the estate stuff for his brother and the Lord has been Faithful to go before us in this process–very detailed and time-consuming and overwhelming at times for my daddy (who is 85) in particular but the Lord is making things go well. now well along so hopefully will come to a close before too much longer but is drawing us even closer together to each other so that is wonderful. i hope and pray that your maggie heals up quickly-it’s a bummer, watching somebody we love, hurting. actually tony you bringing up that song reminds me about revelation 4:3 ((the rainbow-way up high!)) …someday…..!….. 😉


  32. all praise and honor are yours Lord,……we love you!, i’m gonna go see rev.4;3,…thank you kindly, Andrea./////////// Thanks to Mr. Baldy, when he was the first one to use your name, “Andrea”, holy smoke, i bout fell out of my chair,…..i thought, ‘What a lovely name”! really, and very honestly,…like the name,”Abigail”! i’m not so sure i can take all this!, however, as you kin see, i’m – a – handling it and maintaining full composure! Whew! Btw, the operative word here is, “kin”! Brothers n sisters in the Lord., and we need each other. Praise God and pass the bless’ens, please. I will always pray for your sons,1,2 and 3! you-betcha!


  33. boy oh boy, that song was beautiful,..just like a waterfall! Thank you for sharing!,…now to rev.4:3,………..good nite Andrea,…good nite Mary Ellen, good nite John boy n Jim bob,..Good Nite Grandpa!!!, just like the Waltons!,…makes me think of, “home sweet home”,amen and very sweet dreams to you ALL. Love is


  34. that made me laugh,….,,,,,,,! i’ll be counting sheep, good nite my friend to you and your sheepfold…………………………………………………………………..see ya there!


  35. Hows it going w/ the battle on the, “outpourings”, Ingela? is that todd bently and his banditos? hows yer pastor holdin’? sounds wild,..i wish we were all over there where all the excitement is,…heck all were doing over is just countin’ sheep, tryin’ ta git sum shut-eye. you folks r havin’ adventure!


  36. Top o’ the mornin to y’all!
    Tony, he’s a Bentley wannabe, so to speak, or rather a suit-and-tie Hinn copy, from Denmark, who claims he is bringing revival over here… And people (the same ones) keep coming, keep falling, keep laughing and behaving as drunk…
    (And he’s been flapping that jacket around!)

    Happily it’s not taking place anywhere near me, but it’s all aired on ‘christian’ – I mean prosperity/word of witchcraft – TV. Tragic.

    We have a dear old Bible teacher in Sweden who has said that in the last days, God is going to throw out a carcass – and the vultures vill gather flapping and shrieking – those who are left, are the Bride.
    Something in that.

    My curch leadership hasn’t been the most receptive whenever I’ve tried talking about any issue. Sad. Because I love these people.
    But, hey, wen you’ve got your headlights, and think you see your way forward – why pay any attention to a tiny blinking light on the dashboard…?


  37. Some very interesting reading going on here, I’m doing alright, still feels like there are times I’m going to be bowled over by a wave, I guess that happens when life is changed forever, at least until Christ returns..
    My little Pony is eating better and has picked up some of the weight he lost earlier, my aunt Maxine is holding her own and my sis in law Trisil is not doing so well, she needs all the Prayer she can get, cancer is a horrible disease..
    I finally figured out who was breaking into the barn, not sure if I put that on here, my two year old mare learned how to work the latch, she can open the door in less then two minutes LOL, Got her on video…
    I have another cousin who just found out she has cancer too her name is Becky but her drs say it is very treatable, but please keep her in your Prayers also.. Thank you


  38. i was just thinking n wonderin’ about you all, Loop. Praise God, i knew it! we will keep you n yours held up in prayer. would like to see your mare flip the switch, send us a link if its yiutube. Also, i like that deal about the carcus and the vultures, etc,Ingela,….a-yep! and here’s to you ole boy ” sheep “. that comment got me by surprise last evening and the laughter came back to me again today! That was great Rob and coming from you the way it did,…well,..i really got a kick out of it! Blessings folks,…maggie had a ruff night, but today she is showing signs of springing back to her good excited little ole self! We are so happy! Thanks again Andrea. and bless your sons to Jesus!


  39. Thanks Tony – always glad to hear when I get to bring a smile the face of a dear brother or sister in Christ.

    Also – read Pastor Brian’s new post right now- don’t do anything else, read it now.

    Are you still here? You should be over at Pastor Brian’s by now…..


  40. I can only repeat dear Bro. B’s wise words: time will tell.
    And we are wise to be vigilant for an emerging leader in the wake of any Middle East war.

    Pray for the people of Syria. That the Gospel goes out to the refugees, etc.
    Out of two evils, the lesser one has still been the Assad regime, as far as giving the Christian population some sense of security.
    Now that may all be tilted upside down.

    (How’s that ‘groaning in the Spirit’ going, sisters?)


  41. (How’s that ‘groaning in the Spirit’ going, sisters?) still there ingela. yes i am praying. the wheels are coming off of many things worldwide and we know where that ends up-just a matter of time-feels like a short time to me in this groaning.


  42. Dearest Ingela and Andre.

    The groaning{s} are almost unbearable. The deception is unbelievable.The distractions diabolical and the diversions seem to be, well meticulously orchestrated.
    It’s like the all too common slight of hand right trick, yet we are called to be WISE like serpents and gentle like doves right 😉

    There is NOTHING new under the sun as the Lord shows us examples in His word of how the enemy has so many seduced { who are actually self deceived } as I found myself reading about Saul and Samuel this morning with a new found understanding of foolishness and disobedience , justification of sin and the most common of all- “blame shifting”. Aurgh!

    I met with a couple last night that I’ve tried witnessing too and was dumbfounded when they both admitted they’ve never sinned { they are good people they said that love God and do many acts of kindness though their church} . “Oh I exclaimed , you have never told one lie, even as a child’? Oh no they said, ” only little white fibs “!!! “You must be God” I replied for He alone is SINLESS right ? They both rolled their eyes at me { I like that response } 😉

    This reminded me of Saul and how he failed to take to personal responsibility for his sin. This of course is a real problem in many churches as well where we tickle the people’s ears and pat them on the back’s with our APPROVAL of their ” sinner’s prayer” the pastor just led them in.

    Why am I lamenting { or is it venting } ? seriously! We are called to endure till the very end and it’s in my attitude that God is either gloried or not. I love that!

    Joining you girls at the foot of the Cross. It’s the safest place to be right now as the world unravels at the seams.


  43. Sheep you rock,…your the leader of the flock!,……………… not to worry, i wouldn’t wish that position upon you or Vic or any of us. We’ll let Jesus do the leadin’! Hes the Captain of our ship!! ////// Ingela, sooo dog gone funny, your response to sheep as you were waking up!,…I love you guys,…all! i’m glad were in this together,…i live in the face of an unreasonably reasonable amount of rejection. Geeze! help!!! Well, i dance right on around it! Heck wiff ’em!


  44. Tony, you were actually the source of my inspiration. You wrote “maggie had a ‘ruff’ night”!
    That’s just so cute, made me smile. 😉

    Jesus prepared his disciples they would face rejection in this life – and that it might even come from one’s own family. It is very hard to live with.
    But there is ONE rejection we won’t have to face one day, and that’s the most important of all. ‘Reoice that your names are written in the Book of Life’.

    Give your sweet Mags a cuddle from us, will you.


  45. André, and Hisown,
    I can only agree with both of you.
    There’s the same feeling over here among the grassroot-sheep.
    The greatest of all signs of the times is surely the spreading wildfires of deception and delusion. And as you say, Hisown, many people actually want this.

    I do not believe all do, and for some, the experience of having been duped will help them wake up – as it did for me. God in His mercy actually allows people to ‘run the line/rope to its full length’ (Swedish metaphor). Once there, at the end (of themselves, and of sanity and decent behaviour) some wake up, and call out.
    ‘He pulled me out of the deep mud’.

    Actually, some people have woken up, just by reading ‘our’ forum’s critique of the ongoing ‘outpouring’. Suddenly, it becomes totally clear to them what it’s all about.
    Praise God!

    As delusions spread, lines will be more clearly drawn…and rejection will be more deeply felt. But God will also be ‘digging deep’, because he is a merciful shepherd, and still goes after the lost. There is still hope for our unsaved loved ones.

    Loop, sister,
    I’m so glad you’re hanging in there.
    Such a cute ‘burglar’ you discovered! 😉


  46. Ah only when we have EMBRACED the fellowship of Christ’s suffering’s do we really understand what it means to be REJECTED and DESPISED dearly beloved.This is how we KNOW Him and are KNOWN by Him. I love that!

    Tony , Jesus Christ NEVER leaves or forsakes His sheep. When He is the ONLY One that we { have left } we finally get it that HE is all we need. It’s a beautiful place to be.When we look to man to fill a void that only He can, that becomes IDOLATRY 😦 I could never understand the term, ” looking for love in all the wrong places” { whatcha mean wrong places? } until the Lord had to gonk me over the ” ead”.Ouch!! that hurt I would cry out!

    Lying broken and bruised at his feet { again} we finally get that ” aha” moment! Only when the pain is UNBEARABLE do some of us learn the lesson’s. Some of us take longer to learn.Been there, done that 😉

    That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Phl 3:10


  47. “As delusions spread, lines will be more clearly drawn…and rejection will be more deeply felt. But God will also be ‘digging deep’, because he is a merciful shepherd, and still goes after the lost. There is still hope for our unsaved loved ones” (amen and praise the Lord)……………….”Ah only when we have EMBRACED the fellowship of Christ’s suffering’s do we really understand what it means to be REJECTED and DESPISED dearly beloved.This is how we KNOW Him and are KNOWN by Him. I love that!” …….i so agree with you two sisses. so many would rather remain ignorant of the Word-maybe because there is the groaning that goes with this knowledge of what is taking place–that we can feel within us because the Spirit is showing us the pain and urgency of our times when so many only want (or settle for) a Jesus “lite” relationship (?) with Him. i don’t know where they are at–i just know where i need to be–God is the Judge–not me……one of my go to verses in what you posted hisown—That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Phl 3:10….and this one too–2 tim 1:12 for the which cause i also suffer these things; nevertheless i am not ashamed, for i know Whom i have believed and am persuaded that He is Able, to keep that which i committed unto Him against that Day. love to all in His Holy Name.


  48. you ladies are wonderful, like angels! So good your back Colleen,…with power! Thank you for your insights. Ingela i will gladly give mags the cuddle hugs from you all. She was rockin’ the joint on the horse farm tonight! Shes a” round em up” gal and she howls and occasionally breaks into a yodel! At home, on the kitchen tiles, shes a little tap dancer! Its wonderful to see her enjoying herself and coming to life out in the wild like the field spaniel that she was born to be. She is a real delight! Thanks Ingela,…tonight should’nt be so ‘ruff”.Thanks Andrea for the assurance, in the Lord. God Bless and good-night. ps, i hear exactly what you are saying Colleen about Jesus ONLY! Thank-you,i do. so glad you are back and feeling strong.


  49. one minute ted montgomery is warning us about signifigant prophetic overtones and the next minute hes talkin’ food, meals and receipes,…..what a guy! Is he trying to tell us something?


  50. I was able to get the video of my two year old mare, Vashti uploaded to my computor but can’t get it to upload to the internet, wish I could.. That one, she’s a smart one for sure..


  51. Just a few comments concerning the topic of this thread:

    Many of us have been confused about End Time Prophecy, and the prophetic events that certainly surround the time in which we live in. There is so much deception, false prophets, false teachers, and just down out right liars (in the name of money) – that those of us who are eagerly awaiting His Coming are often times caught up into non-essential rhetoric, that throws us off course.

    As many of you know, I do not believe that there will be an End Time False Prophet. I just can’t find anything other than the term “false prophet”; used in the book of Revelation to describe who many believe to be a “second man” who will carryout the mission of the Beast, or coming Antichrist. I personally believe that the term “false prophet” and the coming Antichrist are one and the same man. I further believe that Scripture is very clear that there will be a coming Antichrist, and a final World Empire in which he will control by the power of Satan. This final World Empire and this man are synonymous with what I believe will be a Beast System.

    This single man, or coming Antichrist, will be the lone person who will given power and/or authority to control this Beast “final world” System. It won’t be a One World Religion controlled by a so-called “False Prophet” who will get everyone to follow the Beast, or Antichrist. I believe that this thought, or thinking in itself is very ridiculous. As a matter of fact, the World will not become more “religious” but more secular having much hatred toward those of us who believe. Not to mention, there isn’t a single religion on the face of this planet who everyone wants to follow anyway, and it won’t happen by way of the End of this Age coming soon either.

    This coming Antichrist is called the “False Prophet” because he alone is coming, and/or working behind the power of Satan – and he deceives many by lying; waging war and becoming victorious; and manipulating those who don’t know Christ, who want answers to the problems that the World will be facing at the time he is coming to power.

    Now the question is, and becomes, why and when will he (Antichrist) be revealed? I have to say that the time that God has appointed for all of this to happen has not been given to us by the Sovereign Will of our Lord. However, He has not left us in total darkness that a time such as this should take us by unawares – this is to include His Coming.

    Two things must happen before we are gathered unto Him: 1) The Apostasy, or falling away must occur (we see this now with the desensitizing of moralization); and 2) The man of lawlessness is revealed. Although Scripture does not pinpoint what causes the man of sin to be revealed, we must remember exactly what has been given to us. That is a 10 Nation Confederacy must arise first. Then power and authority will be granted to this man – who ultimately comes or arises from this 10 Nation Confederacy (Beast System) for 3.5 years. What reveals him is what is mentioned in the Book of Thessalonians 2. He will “display” himself as being God, in the temple of God. He will not “say” he is God (as many believe); nor will he be some false messiah coming to save the world, (as many believe). No – he will be exactly what Scripture has mentioned he will be: A man of war; a man who “displays” himself as God- somehow in the temple of God (This requires understanding – meaning is he literally “seated” in the temple or is it a “display showing him seated as God?”; and a man who exalts himself above every “so-called god or object of worship”. (2Thessalonians 2:4) Folks, this is so very, very important to understand. This includes the Beast System that Satan has given him to reside over. I mentioned this to tie in that the Beast System will set itself up to be worshiped – IE…. the Mark of it’s System – or the “Mark of the Beast”.

    One must wonder how one man will get the entire planet to receive his “mark” without there being some sort of “ego” being involved, by way of human nature. Well, this is why I believe that the Beast System will have set this “requirement” up prior to his reign. It will only be required when the World itself has been reduced (population-wise) to a point when one cannot eat, drink, maintain a job, or hold a certain lifestyle or status – and that based on WAR and an chaotic economic status World wide that will allow this man to reign for 3.5 years. There will be many (nations/governments) who will still oppose him however, but I believe that the “mark” of this system will still be required.

    We can further look at how Hitler came to power, but on a global scale. German had everything set up for this man to take over. Hitler’s power arose from an idea. Money and power are all ideas.

    I wanted to tie all this end to the “daily sacrifice”. As Rob has presented, we have Jews that are now practicing the Tamid…or Daily Sacrifice – absolutely interesting; especially at the time we are living in. Is the “Daily Sacrifice” a ritual of sacrificing blood offerings – or is it the Daily Sacrificial Prayers or worship that go on at the Wailing Wall? Is there a difference between the “sacrifice and grain offering” in comparison to “regular sacrifice” mentioned in the book of Daniel?


  52. Some very interesting thougts (on topic!) there, Mr. Baldy.
    “This final World Empire and this man are synonymous with what I believe will be a Beast System.”
    Just like it would be impossible to separate the Third Reich from Hitler.

    I do believe teer will be aseparate ‘false prophet’, because I believe the Bible indicates it:
    “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast AND the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” [Rev. 20:10]

    But surely we will all be partly right on track, and partly mistaken, when it comes to guessing events ahead of time. On the other hand, I do believe we can know, when we finally see things happen. Just have to keep watching, together.


  53. in this world system,…MONEY is POWER, n MONEY is KING,…MONEY RULES………….GREED KILLS!

    …your comment captivates my intrest Mr. Baldy/ Tony!, glad as heck you showed up back in the saddle wiff yer shootin’ irons!

    the silent guns of LOVE will blast the sky!


  54. Thank you everyone that has been considering the signs of the time we are in.

    I agree with Baldy too – there is so much we don’t know. Even if we are wrong about some of these details I have seen a ready willingness to admit it. I look at the industry that has sprung up around apocalyptic literature – in “Christian” bookstores, on cable programs, in movies. I don’t think people like the authors of “left behind” had any ill will but their single-mindedness in promoting a particular flavor of dispensationalism/pre-tribulation interpretation has lead many into a tunnel vision that I think is particularly dangerous when interpreting prophecy. I was studying Luke 3 this week with my men’s group and when the text introduces John the Baptist – it goes right to him interpreting scripture from the prophet Isaiah (as Christ did as well later in his ministry). It got me thinking that in order to be certain of an interpretation of prophecy it seems to almost take a prophet itself – since John was clearly a prophet and our Lord more so than being a prophet was the very fount of prophecy himself in his identity as the word of God. I know I’ve said this before but we always need to come to this with a great deal of humility (as we should handle all scripture) not assuming that we have a lock on anything.

    With that said, and we could very well be wrong when I read scripture about the last days I do absolutely believe we are in a time of a great falling away, a great apostasy. As evidence of that I submit the piles of money that are being plowed into the ministries of apostate teachers like Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, TD Jakes, Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, Rob Bell, and of course the Vatican. The falling away has infected much of what was once considered the heart of the church and to someone who has never really heard the Gospel it could be very difficult to even understand who is a follower of Christ and who is not. I won’t name any more names, but I have even seen the love of money bring tremendous amounts of strife and division to a large church that is otherwise very orthodox in its teaching of the scriptures. There has always been apostasy – but I think we are at one of those moments where it is reaching a crescendo the heights of which have not been seen since Antiochus IV or Nero sat on a throne over their domains. We should expect the days to be hard ahead – but also expect that the Lord himself will be present with us in whatever trials he allows us to encounter for his glory.

    I don’t think there is a separate False prophet either – though Ingela raises a very good point citing Revelation 20:10. I shuffle back into my prayer closet to study that – I wish I was a Greek scholar! I would very much like to understand the Greek structure of that sentence and if its verbs, prepositions or construction of conjunctions demand that the “AND” precedes another “THE” definite article that would specify a second person being referred to – or if it is giving multiple titles for one individual (The Beast and False Prophet).

    I focused on the Tamid in my post above – since that is the exact word found in the text of Daniel referred to. I know not everything is scripture is literal, but it seems much safer to assume that if something can be taken literally and not be ridiculous (like a beast with 10 heads or some huge number of horns or something) that it is best to take it literally. My uncertainty is what qualifies as a true Tamid – or daily Temple service. I’m deferring a little here to the people that ought to know it, since they betting their eternal souls on living by that portion of God’s words – the Jews that are seeking to bring back the Temple Service. Sure they are making a bad bet, and I pray that the Lord reveals himself to them as I believe he promises to in Zechariah 12. What will qualify is a renewal of the Tamid – is it enough to “practice” it daily? I don’t think it requires a physical temple on the Temple Mount (though I wouldn’t argue with God if he made that happen, just to rub Satan’s nose in it)- God has show himself in many other scriptures to be less concerned about the ceremonial specifics and more concerned about the state of the offerers heart (see Psalm 51, Hosea 6).


  55. I forgot to mention – the local JW’s showed up on my doorstep again a couple days ago. I wanted to thank you those of you that the Lord rescued from that cult and your advice on how to confront these deceived people with the truth of God’s word. It so happened I was wearing my “3:16 the numbers of hope” T-shirt that day which was funny I thought – it’s probably not often that someone wearing scripture written on their back comes out on the porch to talk these people. As nice as I could I called them to repentance again – repentance from not accepting the Lord’s sacrifice as full payment for their sins, and repentance from believing that any works they could perform could save them. The older lady at the door when I started into this part of my Gospel presentation – the call to repentance then says.. “Oh I remember you, you said the same things to me last time”. I took my leave of them a few minutes later when they continued to deny the eternal existence of Christ and his deity. I asked them simply to consider what I’d said and check with scripture – though I wish I had handed them one of the extra Bibles I have laying around the house that are a much better translation then the New World Translation they were carrying.


  56. May God bless you Rob for your testimony to those Jehovah Witnesses – you wearing that shirt at the time of your testimony was surely no mere coincidence.

    I just want to touch base on what Ingela has mentioned concerning Revelation 20:10 – which reads:

    “And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

    We must remember that the Book of Revelation is full of symbolic language. I submit to you that the beast in Revelation 20:10 is mentioning is the Beast System or final End Time Government, and of course this false prophet is non other than the coming Antichrist. These are not two individuals in my very humble opinion.

    Because the Book of Revelation is so filled with symbolic language, I will also suggest that this language of being tormented day and night forever and ever is not literal – but figurative language that describes the total destruction of Satan, his final world empire, and the coming Antichrist. Let me please explain……

    When the Eternal State comes in there won’t be things such as day, and night, or even the need for the sun, or moon, crying, sadness, old age, sickness…and yes even Satan himself will have passed away forever. The curse of the Earth will have been destroyed forever. None of these things will be remembered or even come to our minds as we share eternity with Christ. (Revelation 21 & 22 go into great detail on this very thing). ALL things are made new. This is why I do not believe in a literal lake of fire that will last forever – where people will literally burn throughout eternity. Yes there will be the Lake of Fire – but I believe that people will have sentences there, based on their knowledge and/or rejection of Christ – as some will be beaten by few stripes, and others many stripes – but all will DIE. Death means Death, and such is the wages of sin. But I’m getting off topic here. This is another discussion like if one believes in total annihilation or not.

    Ingela, I would also like to bring to your attention something that you have mentioned in another thread concerning the coming Antichrist. You mentioned the man of sin as one who will come in his own name – and there will be those who will accept him. This comes from John 5:43 – which reads:

    “I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.”

    When Jesus said these words He was NOT referring to the coming Antichrist. This is a huge mistake that many make concerning their ideas on making their End Time eschatology fit. Jesus never mentions the coming Antichrist in any passages of Scripture. If you were to read John 5:39-46 in it’s entirety, I’m sure that you will see that when Jesus spoke of “another coming in his own name” He was referring to “anyone; and/or any man” who would come in their own name, bearing gifts, food and miracles – as they sought honor and glory from men; seeking their own honor to be accepted and/or received by them. Jesus sought only to please God. Jesus knew that they would not recognize Him, because He came bearing His Fathers name not seeking His own Glory, nor the glory from men. This is why He mentioned this passage to them. The Jews could not understand who He was, nor did they understand the timing of His visitation. This is why they were susceptible in receiving false prophets, charlatans, sorcerers ..and the like.

    In closing, Rob I am in agreement with you as well. I don’t think that a third temple will be necessary to carryout what Scripture has mentioned by way of the A0D. It will be interesting to see how this “apparent” new renewal of the Tamid fits in.


  57. something that Rob said sits very well w/ me and always has; that Our Father is more interested in the offerers heart rather than ceremonial specifics. Now we have cut to the chase. words of wisdom, indeed. Thank you Lord. ,….in fact, child-like faith shoots way past all that” for show” stuff.

    ha ha,….charade you are!, so to speak

    money, money, money,…….mammon!

    knowledge = power = control = security…………NOT! /// money = power = control = security…………FALSE!

    …its the finished work of Christ on the cross that brings us safely home…secure! Grace through Faith in the sacrifice of Gods lamb, Jesus.

    The fear of God is the beginning of WISDOM/ so superior to knowledge.

    … the little prince was again, perplexed at the ways of the Grown ups!

    the ac and the false p-r-o-f-i-t $$ are one and the same, His game is economics!, no doubt,…and its all around us.

    knowledge = power = control = security…………NOT! /// money = power = control = security…………FALSE!

    the ac and the false p-r-o-f-i-t $$ are one and the same, His game is economics!, no doubt,…and its all around us.

    i had a vision that Gods people were photosynthesizing in the dark during the tribulation, they were getting their light, to do so, from the SON! they didn’t even need food or money!

    good imagination dude! have you bin drinkin’ FFrraapps! mix me a double, please!


  58. an interesting article written by paul mcguire can be found at, on syria,…and opening the gates of hell. false flags and,…charades again! America is on a hellbound train.

    define your terms Mr Baldy and i’ll try and answer you, okay!??

    be careful,…i bite!,…just kiddin’!! me and my dog don’t bite.

    well, to be truthful, we do bite,…both of us, but not very hard. but i got this feeling after reading paul mcguires article, that soon we are going to be depending on the Lord, like never before. things are going to get challenging, like were not so used to. Forewarned is Forearmed i reckon.

    also, see THE ECONOMIC COLLAPSE website, linked off of this site, concerning the USA and its involvement w/ SYRIA. good informative articles exposing Obama!

    “you can bomb the world to pieces, but you can’t bomb it into peace”. Words of Michael Fronti.


  59. Baldy – I agree with you on everything above with the exception of Anihilationism. I don’t find any support in the text for an ending to the suffering and for death to mean a ceasing of existence for any person (a being created by God with an eternal soul, in contrast to an animal who does not possess an eternal soul.). I can totally agree that there will be varying degrees of suffering in Hell based on the persons opportunity to accept God or reject him with the worst most horrendous torments being reserved for the most heinous and blasphemous of those who rejected God. I don’t think those beings will have any access to the new heaven or the new earth they will suffer the great punishment of eternal separation from God – since they pursued that separation in this present life where they could still enjoy some of the good things that God has given by general revelation – the beauty of nature, a chance to enjoy God’s creation. God will be just, and will honor their desire to be separated from him – with it’s eternal consequence in a broken existence where nothing works, nothing beautiful is created, nothing grows, there is nothing good of any kind – as they desired. In their depravity they will receive the due penalty, just as they asked in an eternal existence where there is nothing of God (as they refused to acknowledge it here when it was right before their eyes). I don’t think we’ll be aware in eternity of any details of their suffering at all – like in Luke 16 – there is no indication that Lazarus has any awareness of the rich man’s suffering – even though Abraham addresses him directly I think that Abraham is the exception there standing as a symbol for the nation that belonged to God and perhaps not just the soul of literal Abraham (not non-literal instead of but non-literal in addition to).

    I don’t think it’s necessary to have a large debate about this – annihilation or not I don’t know that I even understand it well enough to want to argue it, but it’s not a conclusion I can come to carefully reading the text or the comments of many good bible scholars on those same texts.


  60. Hi Rob,

    I can see your points on annihilation. I don’t care to have a large debate about it as well, however, I believe that it is important to understand about what death truly is, and the consequences thereof.

    In my very humble opinion, Scripture is quite clear about what happens to us concerning our souls – the soul that sins will die. God who is a Just God, has no pleasure in destroying the wicked – this includes Satan, as he too will not remain forever. But this does not negate the fact that they will receive eternal punishment – and they will give account for their un-forgiven sin in His righteous judgment. We also must remember that Scripture speaks of eternal punishment – not punishing, there is a difference. The wicked do not have eternal life, and this is to include any time spent in the Lake of Fire. Matthew 10:28 has a clear indicator that the soul that sins will die, or be destroyed. At some point ALL things will be made new. The remembering of this Earth and the current things thereof will ALL pass – ALL means ALL. The Eternal State won’t include the wicked burning in some distant galaxy somewhere. What would be the point in having the wicked burn forever, and ever – even Satan?

    In closing, there have been many of those who have said that the soul is eternal – yet I have never found this fact in Scripture. If you, or anyone else can find it, please assist me.


  61. I can see the point you are making and though I don’t agree with your conclusion, I don’t find it to be a piece of essential doctrine or something that materially impacts the salvation we cling to versus the sad destiny that awaits the unredeemed. I respect your opinions too much to think a difference in how we approach the destiny of those who will not be with us could be any kind of hinderance to our fellowship.

    You are right there is no easy answer to the eternal state of those who are not with us. I think we are all doing the best we can to understand scripture but at the end of the day our own limitations as flawed, finite humans certainly are a factor. Where I would point, and where I’ll be going to study further are Mark 9: 42-48 and Isaiah 66:24 which seems to suggest that the worms that consume the damned never die and keep on consuming them indefinitely and Revelation 14:11, Revelation 19:3, and Revelation 20:10 really strongly suggest to me that the suffering of those that are under judgement continues “forever and ever” or literally “aionas ton aionon” – not being a greek scholar I can’t say I really understand every nuance of that phrase it doesn’t seem to suggest an end.

    I think maybe the difference in our understanding hinges upon our definition of death, or what it means to die. I know in the most literal understanding when we’ve seen someone die – from our limited temporal view we’ve seen them cease to be in this life. I don’t think scripture defines death the same way especially as the believer is concerned – when the Lord addressed Lazarus state in John 11:11 he was challenging the notion that the apparent death of a the body of the believer was really something he defined as death, but Lazarus had “fallen asleep” a euphemism that’s used again a number of times by Paul to refer to those who are no longer present in this life. I challenge that perhaps our human definition of death is somewhat limited and God’s view on death is something different and would be defined as “Separation from God”. Until 10 years ago I was dead – yet coming to Christ has made me alive (John 5:24 and 1 John 3:14). In that context – death then, the second death is not life since it is eternal separation from God. If I’m right in my interpretation of these texts, its all the more tragic and horrific for those that reject the Lord while if you are right it is still tragic and horrific only to a slightly lesser degree.

    If I know you, Mr. Baldy, from our fellowship these past few years, and I believe I do, is that you will search the scriptures diligently to understand God’s wisdom. I am so blessed to know that we have a place where people will gather to study and discuss and many will go back and search the scriptures to continue to improve their understanding of what God is telling us. I will keep doing that too.


  62. Hi Rob,

    Thank you for your very kind words. No, a disagreement on non-salvation issues, such as annihilation would hardly ever cause our fellowship to cease – and just so you know, it’s truly okay to disagree.

    I have studied this issue in depth. I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind, as death and it’s relationship to annihilation really has nothing to do with us believers. However, I do feel that wrong doctrine has been taught concerning this issue, and it has led many to come to Christ by way of fear – which often leads to backsliding, and/or a feeling of hopelessness, because understanding is missing. Therefore with this feeling of hopelessness, one often gives up the fight to endure.

    Everyone’s way that God has brought them to Him, and subsequent salvation is different. God in His Sovereign way of sending salvation to both those whom He foreknew, and to those that will come to Him by the prompting of the Holy Spirit, has sealed us ALL in His Great Love. My knowing Christ the way that I understand Him, and know Him, has led me to believe that He is a God of Love first – as He is willing that no one should perish. His Love for mankind is so Great that it supersedes human comprehension – I mean it is totally incredible. This is not to negate the fact that He is a Just God as well, who brings about Righteous Judgment.

    In understanding the Love of Christ, I see no way that He continues an everlasting or eternal “punishing” of the wicked – verses an everlasting “punishment” for the wicked to be nothing other than with justice and with love. My relationship with Him shows me that His nature is Love, and by the very essence of who He is, will not allow this so-called burning in hell forever and ever; and ever for the wicked – who at best is only granted 70 years of life on this Earth – verses an eternity of brutal punishing, which absolutely serves no cause at all. This is to include Satan, who by far has committed the greatest sin. God will destroy them all – and that through Death.

    Many have mentioned Revelation 14:11; 19:3; & 20:10 – to include yourself. These alone are pretty powerful verses of Scripture to support your thoughts; however, the metaphorical language must be separated from the literal – with terms such as “the smoke of their torment ascended forever, and ever; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever – with the understanding that Death is DEATH, in which life no longer exists. (or else why have a distinction between the two?) This very metaphorical language speaks of THE “smoke of their torment” and this same torment that they receive has no rest day or night – as if there will be a day or night after Christ Returns – so we must take this all in context. Also in the Eternal State ALL things will have passed away as we understand it. ALL things in this current life will never come to mind as we know it, as a new heaven and new earth will be given as a gift from God, and God Himself will dwell with us – as He will be ALL in ALL.

    In closing, please again, show me where the soul is eternal.


  63. Oh….almost forgot,

    I want to pose this question to those who believe that unbelievers will burn in hell forever.

    Just to paint a picture for you…..

    Ok, here we who believe in Christ are in year (if that even matters) 10 zillion; 3 hundred trillion; 900 and fifty-nine million years into Eternity after Christ completed the Great White Throne Judgment, and has destroyed the last enemy which is Death – we are enjoying the Eternal State, but yet not in our memory, but in God’s knowledge, He has the wicked of the former life still burning in Hell.

    Does that make sense?


  64. no, not to me. it doesn’t make sense as much as i understand sense from my vantage point thus far. what you are putting forth here Mr. Baldy is about the same as what i put forth on this site many moons ago when i was twisting my mind to try and comprehend such a topic. my style of writing was not as nice as yours, but i saw it the way you are articulating it now, essentially. i think i was saying something like; i don’t believe in a literal hell, the way it is generally believed in circles everywhere. i say to myself, move on tony,…let it go for now. Jesus is on His way. Let us not blot our name out from the book of life. Blessings ……i was saying that i thought that maybe the crime would not fit the punishment, but hey, i see thru glass darkly for now, seeing only in part, until,………He returns! again,…Blessings….


  65. Yeah it does Mr B.

    My JW preacher dad posed the exact same question and used the same words you just did when the discussion of eternal hell fire was brought up after I became Born-again.
    He said He would NEVER be able to believe in a ” God” like that. Unfortunately he met Jesus Christ as JUDGE soon after that.

    A sad eternal state awaits him yes. The Lord has solidified that in my spirit and there is not much that will change my heart on that I suppose.I will share more as time permits.

    Sorry if this come’s out as a ” vent” but I’ve been dealing with some pretty serious false doctrines as of late and am more frustrated than ever.

    I’m sure Vic will agree on ETERNAL HELL FIRE as a EX JW himself 😉


  66. matthew 25:41 ….cast into everlasting fire. now couple that with rev 20:11-15….,…whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. we are made in the image of God (genesis)-He is Eternal so we have a clear choice –Eternal Life or Eternal Death. make sure your name is found written in the book of life is the call of God so that we can escape the lake of fire. up has it’s down-cold’s opposite is hot. the opposite of life is death-both Eternal. if unwashed unsaved souls just become nothing where is the eternal punishment for the blaspheming of His Holy Spirit that the lake of fire was created for? Jesus spoke of torment and gnashing of teeth and their worm dieth not. for those who blaspheme in the Unpardonable sin–no pardon-no relief-Ever—Everlasting hell.


  67. oh and this–who was Jesus talking to in mat 25:41? the unprofitable servant–anyone without faith in Him as the parable teaches. their worm dieth not because the dying never ends–eternal dying.


  68. Just a thought, and this is how it seems most fitting and understandable to me at least.

    Fire will burn a body until it is consumed, but what remains Eternal is the Soul. How a Soul/Spirit Senses or feels pain, I don’t know, don’t think we can know really.

    But an Eternal Hell Will burn Eternally, it is more the Souls Separation from Life and the Giver of Life that will BURN in a Persons Eternal Conscience…and they may well feel Hell Fire in some very uncomfortable way….but not in the manor as a Physical Body would Experience incredible and unimaginable pain Eternally.

    That’s what seems reasonable to me…and would be in agreement and not contrary to any scripture i’m aware of.

    Like I said….just a thought


  69. Yes Cole, I do agree with you. I had hours of discussions with my dad about eternal punishment / hell. I remember showing him all the verses that shows the eternal state of punishment of the sinner. It will make me the happiest person in the world to know that he will only suffer for a short while and then “die”.

    I have often wondered how a God of love can torment a person forever. My mind can not even comprehend infinity. But then again, my mind can not grasp pure holiness. I still fail to understand how an almighty Creator can become a servant and die as a criminal on a cross. If there is no eternal hell, what did He save me from? Why such a big sacrifice from His side? My brain is to small to understand.


  70. Hi Gals/Guys,

    As I have read the comments, all I can say is I honestly respect your opinions – but I keep seeing the same word when it come down to the final death. Let me say that there is a reason why the final death is called the “second death”. It is because one (the wicked) will be resurrected to face Judgment. The Judgment is final as is this death.

    The word I keep seeing most mentioned is the world “PUNISHMENT”. I’ve mentioned this before, there is a difference between punishment and punishing. Death and Hell are cast into the Lake of Fire – which is the final death. It becomes eternal, or an eternal punishment because it is final. Many of you are equating this eternal punishment meaning to last forever. I don’t see that.

    Now concerning the soul. I have viewed what some have written concerning the soul – yet no one has provided one iota of Scripture that proves it is eternal. To suggest that it is eternal is pure conjecture, and speculation – unless there is Scripture to back your theory concerning the soul lives forever.

    In closing, one can’t have it both ways. Death is death; and life is life. There is a reason for the resurrection of the body concerning this issue. Please view carefully, without “reading into” Scripture and/or placing your own opinion into it, and compare the words punishment verses punishing – and compare what Scripture has shown us that is eternal verses death.


  71. We are created, finite beings.
    Ohly God is eternal, in the true sense of the word.
    Even when we inherit ‘eternal life’, we still have a beginning.
    God has not.

    This is at least my reflection.


  72. ” their worm dieth not because the dying never ends”
    “unless there is Scripture to back your theory concerning the soul lives forever.”

    Do you think
    “Their Worm” means, a Worm that belongs to them Physically? No, of course not, but it is One They Own, Belongs to, Have Inherited through Unbelief and Rebellion against Truth.

    It is not……….. A …………worm that Eats at the Flesh,……….. THEIR………. WORM, Eats at the Conscience And Seat of Their Eternal Soul.

    We have scripture that provides Clear Evidence, without
    “Reading Into” the text.

    The question is……..Do You have Scripture to Provide Clear Evidence that the Soul Is Not Eternal without “Reading Into” the text.


  73. what is the separation of the sheep and the goats about then if there are not two distinct eternal destinies? God does not toy with this either/or because He is Sovereign-above our finite comprehension and was not Jesus very specific in pointedly teaching that contrast? the backdrop of a self chosen way-and the Eternal darkness that accomodates that-makes His Glory and Gracious Mercy Shine all the more wouldn’t you say? therefore it is in willfulness we send ourselves to hell in our own self-chosen way. doesn’t the Bible teach that Holy God allows our freewill (an inside job) to seal our destiny proving it is the sinners intent to choose the everlasting lake of fire—banishment from His Life-giving Presence? j vernon mcgee once said: it is not the temperature of hell that makes it so hot…..the burned seared (reprobate-never repented) conscience is a prison and hell like no other-built with pride bar by bar. it was the hard-sayings of Jesus speaking of Eternal things that drove unrepenting wicked men to crucify the Lord of Glory.


  74. Revelation 6:9-11: When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

    Luke 16:19-31: “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. …

    Luke 12:5: But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!

    Matthew 25:41: “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

    This sound very much eternal to me.


  75. sticking with Jesus is something we know FOR SURE, and w/ CERTAINTY, we can count on this. THIS is of utmost importance,…first and fore-most., amen. Thank God for His mercy on us. Choose life,..eye has not seen ,………and beyond our capacity to comprehend, awaits for us the riches of His Glory! i apologize if i seem to be redirecting the focus


  76. Baldy,

    In a way I am glad we are discussing this now since it will bring color and texture and urgency to our efforts to preach the Gospel to the lost. I agree with you when you said no one had provided any scripture that clearly states “the soul lives forever” – that phrase/passage is not there. I would also challenge you to provide scripture that explicitly says that a soul is destroyed and exists no more. We are both basing our case on the implications of other scripture not on direct explicit grammatical revelation. I base my case on Christ’s own word that the fire of punishment is eternal (Mark 9:42-48), therefore I believe the soul that exists in it is as well.

    I still think the widest gap in our position is in how the word “death” is being defined. I would throw out the challenge to define “death” as the bible defines it and for greater clarity to define its opposite “life” as the scriptures define it. I think greater clarity on a human perspective on life and death vs God’s scripturally defined perspective on life and death will help to clear up some of what I think is somewhat murky here and substitutes human observation in places where God has spoken his view.


  77. “I agree with you when you said no one had provided any scripture that clearly states “the soul lives forever” – that phrase/passage is not there.”

    please re-read my response and explanation of the “Their Worm” and see if it is not Proof of an Eternal Soul/Conscience.

    here it is again…….

    “” their worm dieth not because the dying never ends”
    “unless there is Scripture to back your theory concerning the soul lives forever.”

    Do you think “Their Worm” means, a Worm that belongs to them Physically? No, of course not, but it is One They Own, Belongs to, and Have Inherited through Unbelief and Rebellion against Truth.

    It is not……….. A …………worm that Eats at the Flesh,……….. THEIR………. WORM, Eats at the Conscience And Seat of Their Eternal Soul.”


  78. Sadduceeism, Sadducism
    the beliefs and practices of an ancient Jewish sect made up largely of the priestly aristocracy and opposing the Pharisees in both political and doctrinal matters, especially literal and less legalistic interpretation of the Jewish law, rejection of the rabbinical and prophetic traditions, and denying immortality, retribution in a future life, and the existence of angels. Cf. Phariseeism. — Sadducee, n. — Sadducean, adj.

    mark 3:29–but he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation (kjv)


  79. André,
    I have only ever heard of the sheep/goat judgement as being God judging between good and evil on the final Day, and that we – are the sheep.

    However, now I believe there may be a better, and more fitting understanding, and it goes as follows:
    The separation of the sheep and the goats is God’s dealing wit the peoples who still remain alive on earth at His coming. It parallells ‘the Valley of Decision’.
    If we read Jesus’ words carefully, we see there are, in fact, not two, but three groups of people present at this judgement: The sheep, the goats, and ‘the little ones’,or ‘the brethren’ of Jesus (from Swedish).

    As I understand it, this would imply this is not yet ‘the final judgement’ (at least not for everyone, but likely for the goats), but rather a separation of who gets to enter into the millennial kingdom.

    I could be totally mistaken here, but one very good Swedish Bible teacher seems to understand it this way. And in English, we have a couple of good articles on the Endtime Pilgrim:

    Like I said, I’ve only ever heard it preached, that we are the sheep (because we do good deeds…?). But this alternative way of understanding the passage rings a lot more true – considering all things.
    (I mean, on the final judgement Day, I doubt we can ‘pass’ by our own merits.)

    (I am aware I may have touched on this subject before.
    Oterwise quite occupied warding off wolves over here.
    Talking of ‘sheep’, some/most of them are just incredulous to our warnings, and keep on frolicking with wooly wolfie…)


  80. I agree with you shorty, the implication if that is that the soul continued forever in suffering. I was answering Baldy’s request for an explicit statement of an eternal soul. My answer is that is not explicitly stated, nor is the converse that a condemned souls suffering ever ends or that their soul ceases to be. We have to develop our answer from a systematic approach to the text that is the worm that devours the condemned never dies (having nothing left to consume), and the fire is never quenched (having no fuel left to consume), and the smoke of their burning continues forever and ever then The devil and his fellow condemned must be present indefinitely providing food to the worm and fuel to the fire.


  81. Forgot to mention we recently had quite a lengthy discussion on the very topic of hell: eternal vs. extinction (in our Swedish forum). It kind of petered out as we got other ‘fire’ to keep us occupied…
    However, I can say from the very good research done on many parts, that the ‘findings were inconclusive’.

    Both stances seemed to find their view represented in Scripture, (though perhaps the ‘eternal’ perspective had more solid backing?). I guess this is one of those ‘through a glass darkly?’ (But still worth discussing.)


  82. Ingela – that was my conclusion after searching scriptures too. Some ways of coming to either from scripture, but I thought the case for eternal punishment was slightly stronger.


  83. i just know that Jesus’ Words like mark 3:29 that i quoted above were spoken to ordinary people who were in danger of judgment if they did not pass from (spiritual) death unto (spiritual) life by way of Jesus’ Blood Atonement. He declared that they were in danger–if found by death (it is appointed once unto man to die and then the judgment) in the state of unbelief (v 28) that would result in—(His Words not mine)—Eternal damnation.

    man is a trinity also-God’s Image-physical (self-conscious-aware through senses) mental/emotional (world conscious-aware through thoughts and feelings) spiritual (God conscious-aware through either judgment or redemption). ..and he lifted up his eyes in torment–a great gulf fixed. (unalterable choice and consequence). the main things are the plain things-the plain things are the main things (even the heart of a child can know this). that is how Jesus taught right? there is no other Authority amen? enough for me…….


  84. You said it, André!

    No matter how ‘long’ an ‘eternal’ consequence is, once one is ‘out of time’…
    If Jesus warns of hell, that should be enough.

    Wether the soul goes on being eternally, consciously punished or not – at least the consequences are eternal.


  85. Very good conversation!

    I want to make some additional points here, as many thoughts and/or theories have come up, but yet no one has proven conclusively that the soul is eternal. However, I believe that I can make a case that the soul is absolutely NOT eternal. Shorty I believe that this will answer your question(s) as well.

    First of all Scripture says that ALL souls belong to God. The soul that sins will DIE. This passage of Scripture can be found in Ezekiel 18:4:

    “Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.” – NASB

    Now lets look at Matthew 10:28:

    “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” – NASB

    I believe that the aforementioned passages of Scripture prove that the Soul is absolutely not eternal. Okay, some may ask… but what about the “worm that does not die”? Let me answer that…..

    Second…Please remember that I had referred to the “second death” as I will come back to that after I explain what Scripture has provided. When Jesus mentioned His description of Hell – where the fire is not quenched, and the worm does not die; He was not referring to death as we know it at the final Judgment. This is very important to understand – as the punishment of Hell is eternal. **Note that I mentioned the word “punishment” – not punishing.

    Hell or Hades is a place of torment for the wicked, or those who have not died in Christ – and yes, where the “worm does not die”. This is in contrast to Paradise – which is a place of peace, or rest for those who die in Christ. An example of this is given with the Rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) Many have made the mistake of not first realizing that this is a parable – or a description of something that is given as a story figuratively; but it relates to a real life event. Second, many have failed to realize that this is absolutely NOT the final death – as I will get to later. In both of these places (Hades/Hell and Paradise) it is absolutely a resting place prior to anyone being resurrected – and there is a “gulf” between the two, as again mentioned in Scripture (Luke 16:19-31). Also, Jesus Himself tells the thief on the Cross that “today” you will be with me in Paradise. Jesus arose from the dead to a resurrected body – the forgiven thief has yet to be resurrected.

    I’ve illustrated these points to prove that after we die, there is a “resting place” – but only to await a Resurrection. One to everlasting life – the other to everlasting contempt. One for the wicked, and the other for the righteous dead – but nevertheless, a resurrection is completely and totally necessary for both. Many have confused this resting place for the wicked with the final Judgment. This is a mistake. At the final Judgment for the wicked, Scripture tells us that DEATH & Hell are cast into the Lake of Fire – which is the “second death”; and occurs after the wicked are resurrected. (Revelation 20:11-15) Now this is where it all ENDS. After this ALL things are made New – (Revelation 21).

    Revelation 20:11-15 reads: (Judgment at the Throne of God)

    11) Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12) And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14) Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15) And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Now, in the aforementioned passage of Scripture, I really cannot see how anyone cannot see that after this Judgment – there remains nothing left for the wicked. Because after this ALL things are made NEW – (Revelation 21).

    For those of you who want to add your own conjecture and/or speculation to Scripture as far as the soul being eternal – then I strongly suggest that you know the difference between hell/hades and the second death – and how the necessity of a resurrection relates to it all. In contrast, I would also suggest why Jesus went to Paradise upon His death prior to His resurrection. He was with the thief there, as mentioned in Scripture. This is a rhetorical question, as my intent is to prove that a “resting place” exists prior to the resurrection of the dead – and before a final Judgment. The Gift from God is Eternal Life in which we receive a resurrected Glorified Body, and the wicked will receive a final DEATH and/or total destruction after they are resurrected and Judged.

    A “pet peeve” that I have come to discover in a study on this topic is those who want to add the term “separation from God” as a form of death – this has been made in order to justify that the soul is eternal. I find that term, or this unbiblical justification absolutely NO WHERE in Scripture.

    In closing…..the soul that sins, shall surely die. Death is Death, and the final death occurs at the final judgment for the wicked – this is why the term “second death” is even mentioned, and qualified. They will DIE forever. They will not live in eternity burning in some far off galaxy because of there mere vapor like life here on planet Earth was so sinful that God is not merciful enough, or Big enough to see that they are made of dust – predispose and/or prone to sin. Knowing the God that I know – One who says that it is His will that NONE should perish; One who so loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son to provide a way to eternal life; and One who takes absolutely NO pleasure in destroying the wicked (Ezekiel 18:32) – would absolutely ever sentence a person to an eternal punishing in a Lake of Fire that will by Scriptures definition END – after God has made ALL things new. The Eternal Punishment is DEATH. Nothing more, nothing less – lets not add to Scripture.

    Folks, burning the wicked in a Lake of Fire forever, and ever, and ever – makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to me. I mean ….What’s the point? And it absolutely cannot be proven in Scripture.

    Peace to you all!


  86. “I agree with you when you said no one had provided any scripture that clearly states “the soul lives forever” – that phrase/passage is not there.”

    funny thing about that actually—in the book of esther God is not mentioned even one time. based on the above statement-is it right to assume that He was not there? Jesus was very clear to whom He was speaking and about what He knows about Eternity viewing it from the Resurrection-at the last-after the grave-to Eternal Life or it’s flipside-to Eternal Death. though not directly stated–based on what Jesus Actually Said–is it not many many times implied???


  87. “The wages of sin is death.” Maybe we have it right there?

    Our Lord knows, and He will surely judge in righteousness.
    No one will be able to accuse Him of any unfair judgement.


  88. Has anyone ever posted on a topic, then go back to read what you have written, and it appears as if you didn’t make your point?

    Well, that’s what happened on my last post.(Lol) I came home from work yesterday afternoon, very tired, and I wanted to reply to some of the comments that had been made. Well, after re-reading my last post, it appears as if I did not articulate myself very well. Some of you got it, but it appears as if I was all over the place, repeating myself. I apologize for that.

    The point that I was trying to make (Hopefully this time I can articulate myself a lot better); is that there is a resting place(s) for the dead before the final judgment. One for the righteous, and one for the unrighteous. The final death (for the unrighteous) does not come until after their resurrection. Most confuse this with the “eternal punishment” which is to come at the Great White Throne Judgment – then it (the wicked; death; hell) will finally be thrown into the Lake of Fire, and burned up.

    I didn’t sleep very well last night – so I looked up a few passages of Scripture to add to this topic of discussion. Hopefully one can take these passages of Scripture and come to your own conclusion.

    2 Peter 2:9:
    “the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment” – NASB

    2 Peter 3:7
    “But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.” – NASB

    2 Peter 3:10
    “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” – NASB

    Psalm 37:20
    “But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the Lord will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish—like smoke they vanish away.” – NASB

    Malachi 4:1
    “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” – NASB

    Malachi 4:3
    “You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.” – NASB

    The aforementioned passages of Scripture are just a few examples of what will happen to the wicked on the Day of the Lord. As mentioned, the wicked are “kept” in their holding cells (if you will); where there is weeping and grinding of teeth; and the worm dies not; until they are summoned to court at the Great White Throne Judgment. They are then given their sentence; the second death, and cast into the Lake of Fire – where they are destroyed.

    Then our Lord creates a new heaven, and a new earth – ALL things are made new.


  89. Mr B, if you are correct, if there is no eternal punishment in an eternal hell, what is the use? Then the Jehovah’s Witness is correct when he says: ” Who cares if Jesus is God. If I am wrong, I will just be destroyed and suffer nothing”. Then the rich man can say: “Lets eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow I will die and suffer nothing (or maybe a few years in a holding cell)”. The Jihadist can say: “I will blow up myself with many other Jews. If I do not make it to Allah’s paradise I will be destroyed and suffer nothing.” There will just be no consequence for anyone, even Hitler. Do what you want. You will just die.

    My take on death is a little different. I see death as separation. When Adam sinned he died, not physically, but spiritually by being separated/dead to God. Although the sinner is dead to God, the Spirit of God still reach out to the sinner to draw him to Jesus. When you are born again, you get eternal life by being reunited with God. When you die, your body and soul/spirit are separated from your body. The saint is with the Lord and the sinner goes to hades were he is held until judgment day. When the saint is resurrected, his soul/spirit are reunited with your glorified body.

    When you are condemned to hell, you are totally and utterly separated from God with no hope of ever being united with Him. I believe that knowledge for the lost and dead sinner is the worst hell there can be and that knowledge is like a worm eating without consuming.


  90. Vic Wickus,

    My friend, you have missed my point. There IS “eternal punishment in an eternal hell” – what you are not understanding is that the “second death” is the eternal punishment vs an eternal “punishing” in a hell that will be cast into the Lake of Fire. The wicked will suffer as they await Judgment Day, as hell is a place of torment. Scripture is quite clear on that.

    You also must remember that when Christ Returns, and the Sheep & Goats Judgment commences; there will be those who will be sent to that same hell. All the wicked will be there at that time, until He has reigned for 1,000 years. Then the final rebellion occurs, which leads to the GWTJ, when death, hell and all wickedness are cast into the Lake of Fire.

    When Adam sinned, yes he did die – but not immediately. He died just as God said he would for his disobedience. Adam too will be resurrected, and will face Judgment. You can’t show me one place in Scripture where this so-called “spiritual separation” is found – this is a man made theory that some have incorporated to fit how they view death. Let’s please let Scripture speak for itself.

    In closing, I am off to work. I will respond with more later. But let’s please not make doctrine out of “Spiritual Separation” and relate this to the final death.


  91. My friend, either I have missed the point or I am stupid but did you not try to proof that the sinner WILL NOT suffer for all eternity in a conscious state?

    You said:

    “You can’t show me one place in Scripture where this so-called “spiritual separation” is found – this is a man made theory that some have incorporated to fit how they view death. Let’s please let Scripture speak for itself.”

    I am up for the challenge. I am not to sure if you are referring to me saying that Adam died spiritually when he sinned or that the person who dies have a spirit separating from the body, but let me answer both:

    1) John 3:

    Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

    It is clear that Jesus does talk about a spiritual separation. It is also clear that the unregenerate man does have a spirit, but a “dead” spirit inherited from Adam. That is why they are dead to God as their spirit is dead and needs to be born again from above.

    2) James 2:26 –

    For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    It is also clear that the spirit separating from the body equals death.

    So my friend, it is clear that spiritual separation is not a man made theory. The Bible is clear about it.


  92. thanks vic for the clarity of the point you made. i was thinking this morning while reading in revelation for my journaling and remembered this: rev 9:6..and in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

    this portion of scripture is about men under judgment. we can see, pictured for us, men wanting desperately to die-physically die-and cannot. so often the Word shows us a physical manifestation of a Spiritual Truth. it is a foreshadow of when men are taken out of the temporary holding place of their graves and the whole of the grave (sheol) and death itself is cast into the lake of fire-and their worm does not die–they cannot die-it is spiritual death-the Second Death. this i know……God is Just. (praise Jesus Christ! He took the Punishment of my sin in my place on His Cross). i pray to keep sharing and living the beautiful Gospel of The Lord wanting others to escape what is coming if they are not saved! Life from God is constant cycle to Life-death apparently-according to what this and other verses reveal-has a constant cycle too-to keep dying-wanting death to finally end the torment and cannot die to end it. God has His Reasons for letting the torment last forever-i do not suppose that i know them but trust that His Word is Unchanging and Immutable — that Word-that i can trust He will bring me to the heaven Jesus paid the way to give me — that Word-that He will banish to desolation in separation from Himself all who refused His Son–He is Faithful to His Word in either outcome. Oh the depth of the Riches both of the Wisdom and Knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His Judgments and His Ways past finding out! romans 11: 33. what unimaginable torment it truly has to be (and THANK YOU JESUS i will never know) to be left Alone burning in a spiritual body & mind with the knowledge of Whom they refused………


  93. Thank you Mr Baldy, Vic and André for very thought inspiring comments.
    It’s not the easiest of topics, to be sure. (For now, I remain straddled on the fence.)

    André. it’s the first time I’ve thought of ‘men seeking to die, though death escapes them’ in that perspective. You’ve made a good reflection there.


  94. agreed mr baldy. a good discussion. though we hold differing positions i am glad always for your continued Encouragement and effort to Edify the Body of Christ. you share the same heart for the brethren-love! and they will know we are christians by our love………..;) (thanks to you too as always ingela-be blessed in the Strength, Comfort, and Wisdom needed and graciously poured daily upon you from The One Who is your Refuge. thinking of all of us here and glad for each (commenting or not)–a blessing to come to this place and know Jesus among us.


  95. Vic Wickus,

    I truly wish you had included my entire comments concerning this so-called spiritual separation as it relates to the final death – it may have cut some of the confusion that you are having with what I have written.

    Let me re-paste what my intent was, as it was in my closing statement:

    I posted: “But let’s please not make doctrine out of “Spiritual Separation” and relate this to the final death.”

    I stand by my comments, and totally disagree with the analogy that you have put forth concerning Adam having died spiritually. And John 3 relates to what Jesus has mentioned by being born again. What you have presented has nothing to do with the second death I am mentioning – however is does show what man must do to become saved; and what happens to the body when it dies initially, or the first death. All men are appointed to die, and as Scripture mentions we must then stand before God at the Judgment. It is the second death in which I am commenting about as it relates to annihilation – and the wicked not burning or being tormented forever and ever. Please let me explain…….

    First you have provided the example with Adam having died spiritually – which has absolutely no Scriptural support (this is the man made doctrine of which I am speaking of) – if so, give me an example of when Adam was “born again.” God told Adam that he would die – and he did, “Physically”. I see no evidence that God ever told Adam that he would die spiritually, and have a need for a Savior in order to make it to heaven. Man has breathed this theory into existence, in order to justify why they believe that the soul will live forever and the death in which they receive is this so-call “spiritual separation” from God, by burning in eternity. Nonsense, as Only God is immortal. We as believers will only become immortal after the resurrection, and at the proper time. Please remember that there is a resurrection into life and the other into eternal damnation.

    Then you give the example of James 2:26 to mention that the body without the spirit is dead, to make your point. I agree that the body without the spirit is dead; but this has nothing to do with the soul that is in an apparent conscious state after death; and the second death that the wicked will face at the Judgment. Here are some examples of what I am mentioning: When Moses died, his spirit left his body – yet he appeared in the transfiguration. When the rich man and Lazarus died, both their spirits left their bodies, yet the parable gives where they were seen in two separate places – one being paradise, and the other being hades. So…I get that, and the point that you have made only relates to the first death.

    So again, I vehemently state, that is no such animal as “Spiritual Separation” as it relates to man’s definition by indoctrinating a theory that man has an eternal soul – which will be separated from God in a conscious state while burning in an eternal hell if he rejects Christ as Savior. What I have been trying to convey is that the second death is FINAL. It is eternal – and it is Eternal Punishment

    I believe that I have shown a few verses of Scripture that proves that the soul or spirit, or whatever you want to call it will absolutely not burn forever, or be tormented forever. Many want to look at the first death, and stop there when a wicked person dies, and goes to hell – where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth; total darkness; and the worm dies not, and utter torment. But what they are not seeing is that Scripture is clear about this place of torment finally being cast into the Lake of Fire. It is death that is the eternal punishment, as they are burned up.

    In closing, I only wished to bring this very important topic up so that those whom we witness to are given the proper information. All too many times when our intention is to lead one to Christ, the wrong information is provided that scares one into serving the Lord; which at some point could become superficial – or they could be turned off by the Gospel, because it has been delivered by fear instead of love. Nevertheless, the Truth must be learned, and this is why I appreciate and respect the comments – whether we agree, or disagree.


  96. Hi to all, if anyone is interested in visiting and scrolling down the home page to an article called,”something big is about to happen”, there is something there to wonder about on the exciting side concerning the prophecies and the timing thereof. I’ll leave it at that. Be Blessed All of You…///….sorry for the off topic, but this is really kinda awesome, if,… you have the “correct” presuppositions in place to see it from the authors viewpoint, concerning the “appointed times”! God, i love it!


  97. My goodness Loop!,…Geeze that was incredible,amusing and instructive! If at first you don’t succeed, try try again,…tenacity! Thats the ticket. The horse is a real beauty,wow! The setting was sweet and your voice and laughter was spectacular! FIRST PLACE in the contest! Good job getting it over to us, yer a video genius. That was a real treat, thanks, it was really enjoyable! i was expectin’ ole’ Sam and Noah and them ta come runnin’ on out thru the pastureland hootin’ and a hollerin’! lots of love to you all. be blessed, all of you, all yer kin!!! Aunt maggie, uncle ed and the whole shootin’match!


  98. i don’t mean ta be horse’n round like that, know, maggie n ed?!! there ain’t no maggie n ed up your way and i knew that, dog gone it! heck, i was just jokin’ along the way. That video kicked butt!


  99. i feel insane,… shoot, probably ole’ Baldy was right all along,……….heck, i’m not so sure i am okay,…or even desire to be.??? i just go from day to day, goofin’ around everwhere i travel. but i’ll tell ya what,…its time to start gettin’ serious around here! Listen,Jesus is comin’ back, SOON! thats the Good News,….you knew that.


  100. now i’m startin’ to feel, all kinds of SANE!, geeze!, this is some roller coaster ride! Whew! i don’t know how much a this i can take. come quickly, Lord Jesus! ……… good-nite now, ya hear. y’all sleep tight,…say yer prayers and call me in the mornin’!


  101. man, i hope you all are finally done with all that theological dialoggin’ bout the afterlife, boy that was just-a-sendin’ me in circles. i mean one minute i’m agreein’ wiff baldy, and the next i’m agreein’ wit ole’ vic and them! you folks are convincin’!


  102. now i don’t no what i think,…i’m just gonna take n STICK with JESUS in the sonshine. On the serious side, seriously, can i ask you guys a question? DO ANY OF YOU THINK THAT THERE MAY BE A FALSE RAPTURE PLANNED BY THE EVIL POWERS THAT BE? One that is going to be WELL ORCHESTRATED and full of satanic technological wizardry that will cause fear and great confusion,…and may lead to apostacy for some, or for many? i’m referring to, The Armageddon Script and or Project Bluebeam and perhaps HAARP. Am i the only one around here who has heard of this and actually believes it to be possible; as in a great deception in connection to the lying signs and wonders of anti-christ.


  103. Tony, I don’t recommend that you keep looking at all those mystical conspiracy sites. It’s both confusing, misleading and distracting. And no, I don’t believe in a ‘false rapture’. There is simply nothing of the kind hinted of in Scripture.
    But a false Messiah will be quite enough to ‘handle’, thank you.

    (Enough ‘goofing’ now, brother. Please.)


  104. Loop,
    your cute video could perhaps remind us to ‘be prepared for the unexpected’… 😉

    I hope you are holding up – resting in His loving hands.


  105. Ingela, thanks for your input,….i’ll try and knock off the clownin’ around some, really. I am altogether serious about a holographic show of some sort, that will take place as lying wonders and signs,…maybe a phony alien invasion – new age packaged, and ready to go, in order to create confusion and the lie…strong delusion. There are conspiracies afoot,…one in particular of diabolical proportions crafted by none other than satan himself. i am not saying this for no other reason than to put out a warning. The Occult satanists behind the scenes have plans to deceive. Are you familiar with Peter LeMesieurs book, The Armageddom Script?,…or the other things i;ve mentioned above? Jesus said there would be great deception in the last days.


  106. …after all, it does say in scripture that the imposter will “appear’ to be able to bring fire down, from the sky! will this be a satanic SUPERNATURAL display, or advanced technological wizardry! holographic!! and is it true that they have got earthquake creation down to a science / thru HAARP technology!?? and how about microchips???, is that mystical conspiracy stuff too? honestly, just putting it out there. If I don’t,…who will?


  107. Tony my Mare Vashti can actually get the door open quicker then she did in that video, she kept looking at me I guess she was wondering what I was doing LOL and she knows we keep getting after her for piddleing with stuff, she actually unscrewed the antenna off of my hubbys truck once,”he was not happy about that” LOL, she just turned two in June, those blue eye’s of her’s just always look so innocent..

    Tony I actually had a grandma Maggie and one of my uncles name is Larry Edward LOL.. Like I said earlier I have a large family..

    Thank you Ingela I am doing pretty well, it takes a lot of getting used too when your whole world changes, theres a lot missing now..

    I was actually raised kind of the way “or should I say” of the belief that Mr Baldy is explaining and believe that.. A lot of things from the WWCofGod I’ve came away from but I do agree on this one thing with Mr Baldy When death is thrown into the lake of fire , everything is made new, ie a whole new beginning..


  108. Loop, you are a wonder!,…and an asset to this site. God brought you here,….you are so very nice and your family is wonderful and that horse of yours is such a splendid character. You have blessed my heart and added joy to my life. thank-you, and Thank you Lord Jesus! How about that what Mr. Baldy brought forth! Baldy, you are , “the BOMB”! Thats a compliment! Bless you fine gentleman.


  109. Tony animal’s never cease to amaze me.. And I’ve had a few this is actually the second mare I’ve had that figured out how to open a latch..
    Just to let you guys know my old pony is doing a lot better, he’s been eating and has picked up some weight that he had lost earlier, I’m very attached to him I’ve had him from his birth he was so small when he was born I used to carry him around of course he got to big for that quickly… I’ve cried on his shoulder’s a many a time.. Those who don’t care for animals probably wouldn’t understand..
    A couple days ago after I had just fed and turned them out, my husband went back up to the barn, I had let them out the front and hadn’t went and opened the door, I figured , well she’ll open it anyhow so I didn’t got prop it back.. anyway when he got back up there she had the door open like I figured and they were standing in the stall, he went over and put them back out and started back around the barn by the time he got to the corner, she already had it back open LOL he turned around and yelled at her and she took off around the other side, well he said Walker just went over to the door and pushed it too with his nose and looked at him like he was thinking “I told her she was going to get into trouble” LOL, hubby decided to just leave them to it adn started back around the corner adn heard a noise and looked only to see Walker get a hold of the latch and pull it back open and walk on into the barn LOL..


  110. i love the animal kingdom,……animal friends rock my world. Your story is great,…never a dull moment with your bunch.,..and yes, we bond with them and nothing is ever the same. That ole’ Walker knows whats goin’ on. Animation right there before your eyes! thanks for sharing,…very comical! they never cease to amaze us! keep us posted, and be blessed…Jesus is a comin’!, on a White Horse!


  111. The Lord keeps on leading me back to two verses the past few days .The Holy Spirit will not let the Word of God return void and for that I give Him all the praise and glory!

    1Cr 11:19
    For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

    1Cr 10:21
    Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils.

    This afternoon I was having a discussion with a Pastor friend and had NO IDEA of what his current series was on. I was blessed beyond words as he grew ever so silent over the phone { I was wondering if I said anything wrong} but he expressed that which I was sharing is , this week’s sermon 🙂 I love that! He also touched on what ETERNAL CONDEMNATION is and that one should do a word study on that. He has no idea of this current discussion either. I did a search and came up with a pretty awesome article by Matt Slick. Loved it 😉

    Is Hell Eternal?
    by Matt Slick


  112. Quite a word study! That ole’ Matt is, “slicker than a trout”! Thanks for sharing, i guess,…….i reckon i guess,… i suppose,…i mean if its the truth then i accept it. Hi Colleen, good to have you posting, for a change!!! Blessings always…..


  113. Hi Hisown1,

    I’m glad you provided the link to Matt Slick, and his comments concerning Is Hell Eternal?

    But first I want to say, yes by all means Hell is eternal – because it’s consequences are eternal. It continues to amaze me that those who write such articles, and more importantly, those who read such articles, will at face value just accept what has been written, without actually see what is written and do their own homework.

    I’ve mentioned this before – but I guess I’ll have to mention it yet again. Concerning Hell Fire, and the Eternalness thereof, there is a total and complete difference between “Eternal Punishment” and “Eternal Punishing”. We must truly UNDERSTAND that.

    I want to dissect a section of a topic that he has mentioned in that link you have provided.

    Matt Slick wrote the following:

    “Unquenchable Fire”

    Some believe that the fires of hell are symbolic and/or temporal. But the following verses show that they are not.

    Matt. 3:12 says, “And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” (See also Luke 3:17.)

    Mark 9:43 says, “And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire.” The word “unquenchable” is asbestos in the Greek. According to the enhanced Strong’s lexicon, it means “unquenchable, the eternal hell fire to punish the damned.”

    The following citations are from Greek dictionaries and Lexicons. They show that the word “unquenchable,” which is asbestos in the Greek, (which occurs only in Matt. 3:12, Luke 3:17, and Mark 9:43) means unquenchable, without end.
    •”unquenchable, inextinguishable”2
    •”not quenched”3
    •”pertaining to a fire that cannot be put out” – “unquenchable.”4
    •”unquenched, unquenchable”5
    •”that cannot be put out”6

    Is hell eternal? Yes it is. Are its fires without end? Yes they are. Is it a pleasant doctrine to discuss? Not really. But, hell is real. This is all the more reason to preach the gospel. Jesus said,

    “And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire,” (Matt. 18:8).

    All I can say is simply Amazing…………and my comments:

    Now, in the aforementioned in which Mark Slick has penned……. If you’ll notice, and I’ve mentioned what I’m about to state before as well – that most want to talk about the “First death” in which the unbelieving Soul goes to Hell and is tormented – where the fire is “unquenchable” (more on this later) but they absolutely stop there, and never associate this place of torment with the Lake of Fire, in which this same Hell is cast into as the “Second and Final Death”….Hummmm.

    But, this still doesn’t satisfy the statement that Mark Slick has made concerning the “unquenchable fire” – and it’s association to the Final Death. Mark Slick uses Matthew 3:12 to describe the wheat (Christians) that are gathered to the barn by Christ – but says that the “chaff” or (unbelievers) will “burn up” with “unquenchable fire”. Now – I find it most interesting that the “chaff” will “burn up” – but most want to say that this torment that the chaff is receiving is continuous or everlasting because the fire is “unquenchable” – even though the “chaff” (unbelievers) are “burned up”… (what an oxy moron).

    No Folks – it is the FIRE that is “unquenchable” until it completes the job that God has destined it to do – and that is BURN UP the “chaff” or unbelievers. It unquenchable or eternal because it’s RESULTS are FINAL – as decreed by God.

    Now, secondly we AGAIN have the term Eternal Punishment – that most are still getting very, very confused about, as it relates to the Final Death. Well let me paint a picture for you…..

    If I were to burn a log, and my goal is to burn it until there is nothing is left – I can prove that the fire in which I am using to burn this log is unquenchable as long as the fire I’m using is designed to totally destroy this particular log (chaff). The log’s results in it’s designated state will last forever. The log will be consumed, and “burned up” eventually; until nothing remains but ash – which over time, even it will disappear or dissipate as well. Even the smoke from the log, as a result from the fire will ascend forever. I believe that a comparison to Scripture will illustrate that the very vapors & smoke that emit from the log will have ascended to the heavens forever causing the log, smoke, and all of the elements thereof to become eternal, because it will NEVER be in that particular state again, nor ever be seen again.

    In closing, what Matt Slick has failed to articulate in his article, is the difference between an “unquenchable fire” (Hell) as it relates to Chaff (unbelievers) in their final state. In that I question: Is he saying that Hell is unquenchable – or is he saying that the Chaff, or unbelievers are being burned forever in this unquenchable fire – which is in contrast to being “burned up”.


  114. I have absolutely no desire to have any more debates. Period .They are non- profitable. So rather than being defrauded any longer I will refrain from posting until the Lord gives me the green light to do so 😉

    There are many things that I want to say but need to be at the foot of the cross for now. It’s the safest and soundest place to be as we descend into a even deeper deception.

    Shalom and blessings to all.


  115. Baldy, I must say, my dad would have been extremely proud of you. You are skillfully defending one of the pillars of the Watchtower Bible Society, the others being the Trinity and deity of Jesus and the believer who will live on earth forever and not in heaven.

    Did you know that you can “proof” with Scripture that Jesus was created by God? He is the Creator of all life. (Revelation 4:11) Therefore, the first human that God created, Adam, is called a “son of God.” (Luke 3:38) Similarly, the Bible teaches that Jesus was created by God. So Jesus is also called a “Son of God.”—John 1:49.

    God created Jesus before he created Adam. Regarding Jesus, the apostle Paul wrote: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” (Colossians 1:15) Jesus’ life began long before he was born in a stable in Bethlehem. In fact, the Bible says that his “origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.” (Micah 5:2) As God’s firstborn Son, Jesus was a spirit creature in heaven before he was born as a human on earth. Jesus himself said: “I have come down from heaven.”—John 6:38; 8:23. And so we can go on. This is written as illustration as I do believe Jesus is God.

    I will keep on believing, defending and teaching eternal punishment for the sinner and I will do so until the following Scriptures are erased from my Bible:

    Rev 14:11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    Mr B, you have failed to quote the rest of the verse. The have no rest day or night. Sounds kinda eternal to me.

    Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Again note, tormented forever and ever. A burned up dead person can not be tormented. And in this same lake of fire the judged dead is thrown to be tormented forever and ever.

    So in these verses we can see those who receive the mark of the beast, the beast and the false prophet will be tormented day and night, forever and ever. Is there any reason for us to believe that Hitler, Marx, Mao Tse Tung and millions of other unsaved will just be consumed in hell and not be tormented forever and ever?

    I will rather stay with the traditional Evangelical doctrine.


  116. Vic Wickus,

    First of all let me say that I am absolutely NOT a defender of the Jehovah’s Witnesses or their lies concerning what they put forth in the Watchtower, or their very FALSE claims concerning the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ – so please don’t throw me into that mix; nor loop me in with their nonsense. This is certainly no disrespect to your father. Have you ever considered that even the very false religions have an element of truth in them? This is how they get people to follow, who are naïve, or just don’t understand Scripture.

    Now, I want to address some of these points you have brought forth, But I must first address this very issue you have mentioned concerning one can show “proof” that Scripture mentions that God created Christ: WHOAAAA! We can stop right there! That absolute FALSE point CANNOT be proven with Scripture – and it is a down right LIE. Christ was never created – He has no beginning, or ending. So the very fact that you even mention such an erroneous statement that shows me that there is a serious lack of interpretation. But we can discuss this at a later time – as this has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

    Ok, you have mentioned those verses that show the term “day and night” as it relates to the wicked being tormented. Well, I’m glad you caught that – but you don’t have a “sliver bullet” in your interpretation as to explain that this is the reason why they will burn or be tormented forever. Let me explain…..

    If you’ll notice the beginning of Revelation 14:11 (which by the way my friend, you have left out); but it says that the “smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever”. If I were to strike a match, we know that it would emit smoke, well that smoke goes up forever and ever but the match itself burns up. Now lets look at a previous verse: Revelation 14:10 – it states that the wicked that you have mentioned (mark of the beast worshipers ..etc) will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. Hummm, but doesn’t God create a New Heaven and Earth and ALL things are made new – so now I ask are the wicked still being tormented still be in the presence of the holy angles and the Lamb? Appears as if they all are burned up right there in the presence of the holy angels presence and the Lamb to me.
    Now in viewing Revelation 14:10-11, which clearly is indicative of one being “Burned Up”
    I want to re-post something that you have written. You wrote:

    “Again note, tormented forever and ever. A burned up dead person can not be tormented. And in this same lake of fire the judged dead is thrown to be tormented forever and ever.”

    So you are saying that: “A burned up dead person can not be tormented”?
    Well, I’m so very glad that you have proven my point – and that with your very own words
    But you also state: “this same lake of fire the judged dead is thrown to be tormented forever and ever”. Can you see the inconsistency, and contradiction?

    Let me say that Scripture must be taken in the context in which it is meant to be delivered. The term “no rest day and night” as it is used in it’s connection with being tormented is the total and complete punishment or DEATH or total destruction that the wicked will receive for the consequences of sin. There will be no more DAY & NIGHT upon the Return of Christ – as there will no longer be a sun or a moon. This is the Eternal Punishment. Not Eternal Punishing. It is total and complete utter destruction. Something that is alive is not destroyed.

    Remember these Scriptures that I have presented?:

    2 Peter 3:7
    “But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.” – NASB

    2 Peter 3:10
    “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.” – NASB

    Psalm 37:20
    “But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the Lord will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish—like smoke they vanish away.” – NASB

    Malachi 4:1
    “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” – NASB

    Malachi 4:3
    “You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.” – NASB

    The aforementioned passages of Scripture show that the wicked are burned up. Again, something that is “burned up” is absolutely not alive. I believe that Scripture is very clear concerning how it will all finally end. We must remember that the words of Scripture must be taken in context – especially like “tormented vs tormenting” and what death, destruction, and “burned up” vs burning all mean.

    In closing, Vic Wickus and others, let me say that this debate sort of reminds me of debates on the Rapture. We all have different views, and/or opinions – I respect each of them although we differ in our interpretations. Hope you guys still love me.


  117. i don’t agree mr baldy with you on the eternal punishment/punishing–i still think it is both–according to the Very Words of Jesus the Lord…all that HE says and implies….but yep–still love you. absolutely. (did not enter my mind to think or feel otherwise about you)


  118. Shalom Tony 🙂

    I loved these verses that was on my heart when I woke up this morning 😉

    Eph 4:14
    That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

    Phl 2:3
    Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

    Pro 13:10
    Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.

    Jam 3:16
    For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

    Amen Vic.

    Thank-you for reminding us of how the diabolical JW cult twists God’s Word to prove that Jesus Christ IS NOT God, that only the “144000” go to heaven, that they ALONE have the “truth ” and that there is no hell- period.

    The most irritating for me is their self- righteous pride as they boast in being ” well versed” in the scriptures yet have no idea of what it actually means to be LED, to WALK, to be FILLED and to be PROMPTED by the Spirit of God. No idea ! it’s foolishness to them.
    They’re in bondage. They have no power of Christ resting on them and have no idea what it means to worship God in SINCERITY and in TRUTH!it is so frustrating to even try and share the Gospel truth to them. I praise God that the Holy Spirit drew me to Christ that day in 1993 or I would still be dead and lost in my sins 😦 Thank-you Lord Jesus for my salvation. Oh and speaking of which I would love to hear other’s testimonies of how they became born again, not too many want to share that lately it seems! {?}

    Oh and Vic speaking of the sad reality of being spiritually dead, the Holy Spirit led me to these verses the day my preacher dad died. I was not surprised.
    Luk 9:60
    Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
    Isa 29:13
    Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

    I’ve always wondered why Paul was hated so much { even in this day }. Now I understand. He would much rather be hated for truth then be loved and accepted for deception 😉


  119. Hi Andrea.

    Thank you for still loving me. I don’t know what to say to help your understanding as far as mentioning once again, that there is a very big difference between Punishment – and Punishing. Punishment ends, Punishing continues. Scripture is very clear that the unrighteous will receive Eternal Punishment. It’s final.

    I just challenge those who have been taught things that have been placed into their minds by men to truly ask God for understanding – verses saying that “the Holy Spirit has told me” this or that. Or because they simply believe certain things because they just “feel” how things should be.

    Has the Holy Spirit spoken to you, and you alone? Does He have an audible voice? Is it baritone, soprano, or is it deep bass? If He has spoken to you, tell us how you received His Message of instruction – so that we can determine it with Scripture by confirmation. Scripture is of no private interpretation. No matter how much someone wants to “feel” that they have a corner market monopoly on the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit always sends confirmation – and that not based on how we “feel” or think in our own mind, and very vain imagination. We have those who want to always “qualify” what they personally “believe” or how they personally “feel” by using the very misused words:

    “The Holy Spirit has told me ” – Whatever.


  120. yes mr baldy i certainly do love you as a brother. i Believe this way – that is why i think what i think and yes have feelings about issues too. all i know to base on is what. Jesus. said. the Punishment God has spoken is Final. point made. the Punishing is the Perpetual Continuing Force of His Spoken Word that those who are punished for rejecting Jesus Salvation will be punished forever–because we are made in His image i believe we are immortal souls in mortal bodies-“forever” housed in the temporary-Jesus is Immortal and He was temporarily “housed” in a mortal body-we are patterned after God so when HE says that at the Last–when all is finalized-God has the Last Word-each soul will be raised either with Him to His Eternal Heavenly Home or raised from graves to the banishment and separation from His Holy Presence to fulfill the Eternal Sentence of His Judgment. it is the Sentencing phase of this hard topic of Judgment that you seem to dismiss. i listen for a still small voice of conviction or instruction and i answer to Him-not you or anyone. the Spirit can certainly correct me (and does) when it is needed-according to the understanding i have which is looking through a glass darkly in many issues perhaps—but not this one. sin pays it return in the form of eternal wages and that is a forever death. all this makes me appreciate that i have been given His Life as a ransom and i will forever live. Jesus You are Awesome. \ 0 /


  121. Mr B, just to make it clear, I do not believe that you are a JW sympathizer or that you believe Jesus was created. I wrote that comment to illustrate how scripture can be twisted and not to say that is what you believe. And yes, I still love you.

    There is just no way that you will be able to convince me that tormented forever will be cut short and not be forever. I read the scripture that you provide and all I still see is “forever and ever” and I keep on wondering why Jesus warned that it will be better to mutilate yourself than to suffer in hell.

    Love ya guys and gals. 🙂

    Ps. I think it is time to start a discussion on Damascus. Did you guys read the articles on the right on Facebook?


  122. Mr Baldy.

    You said ” Has the Holy Spirit spoken to you, and you alone? Does He have an audible voice? Is it baritone, soprano, or is it deep bass? If He has spoken to you, tell us how you received His Message of instruction – so that we can determine it with Scripture by confirmation. Scripture is of no private interpretation. No matter how much someone wants to “feel” that they have a corner market monopoly on the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit always sends confirmation – and that not based on how we “feel” or think in our own mind, and very vain imagination. We have those who want to always “qualify” what they personally “believe” or how they personally “feel” by using the very misused words:

    “The Holy Spirit has told me ” – Whatever.”

    I will refrain from commenting and say that this is not only malicious it seems to be filled with spiritual jealousy { like Miriam for her brother Moses } and is sowing discord among the brethren.

    None of us need to ” prove” anything to you and no we don’t ” hear voices ” in any audible voice as you so so sarcastically commented.

    Does the Holy Spirit not speak to you Mr Baldy ? and if so HOW DOES HE?

    The mocking is vile . It’s repugnant!

    Mr B I am ready , bring it on 😉 5 stones and all 🙂


  123. Lets save our stones for the enemy. I think we have covered this topic of the final destiny of the I redeemed very sufficiently. There are obviously two very different points of view on this topic and since we aren’t discussing a variance to how one is saved by Christ, I would suggest that we move on to another topic. I have some thoughts I on the latest developments in Syria that Ill try to post the next time I have some uninterrupted time at my keyboard.


  124. If I may say one more thing Mr Sheep.{ Thank-you for being peace maker }

    The “questioning” of how God talks to His servants is very concerning to me and will need to be in prayer over that one.

    Am wondering if Moses heard God speak in Alto or Soprano at the burning Bush ?

    Exd 3:4
    And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

    Or what about Peter?

    What scripture did God show Peter when he asked Ananias and Sapphira “why is it that Satan filled your hearts to LIE to the Holy Spirit ? Could it be a ” unction ” from the Holy Spirit? That’s rhetorical anyways:) Peter had such beautiful gift of discernment . I love it.

    Or what about Jeremiah ?
    Jer 13:3

    And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,

    Jer 13:6
    And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.

    I’ve been given a directive to step away from debating or defending this. I will comply.


  125. I’m still not sure where the topic of the Holy Spirit speaking to anyone came from. If anything it seems that it came out of a dig on someone’s post – I don’t think that would be a great way to begin a conversation on how God chooses to communicate with his children. We should probably take a break from that one too, and when we pick it up start it as a thoughtful dialogue among those that love The Lord and love on another and not in the way of striving and sowing discord as the pagans would.


  126. Douglas J. Del Tondo wrote an interesting book,”Jesus Words Only’……….”. It can be read online for free. If the Holy Spirit moves you to do so,……….the first page or two is captivating and you can deceide from there….It takes a look at cannonization of scripture.etc!


  127. Woe Vic,…we must have been posting at the same time,…this video is something else!!! Think about it, then let go AND LET GOD

    God loves us …AND,,,, delights in us!, the way we LOVE our animal friends[our pets]! Think about it………..the cure. Very Interesting! What do you think?

    …with all their talk of Hell and flames,……..the white man came and raped them savage fools sayin’,” we have the will of God,…’ EXPAND”! That is mans way,…….DOMINATE!!!, push aside,…take over,…trample/stampede

    …sayin’, ” Why them ‘red men’ are just ‘savage fools’ to question this progressive land!”

    ” We’ll take n learn ’em about Jesus,……’OUR WAY!” Mans way.


  128. Hey Colleen, you can keep your stones….last time I fought with a girl, I got beat down pretty darn good. And as Rob said – “Lets save our stones for the enemy.”

    Vic Wickus, there are things that I wished to have communicated on the topic of annihilation – with the hope that some would complete a study on their own, and not just go by how they’ve been taught, or how they feel about the subject. I hoped that I communicated that there is a difference between hell/hades (a place of torment for the wicked) and the lake of fire (a place of eternal/final death for the wicked) – and the consequences or reasons thereof. I hope that some have learned – or will look in to, the purpose for the resurrection of the wicked; and the terms and/or words associated with a second, or final death. And finally, I hope that some will at least question what would be the purpose of God burning and tormenting guys like Hitler, Marx, Mao Tse Tung and millions of other unsaved people forever? Oh, and throw Satan in there as well. It has never, or will ever make sense to me.

    But you guys are right, it’s time to move on. Thank you all for the discussion – even if Colleen did pull her gloves out.


  129. Mr B, it also doesn’t make any sense to me why a God of love would torment people forever and ever. I am a sinful person and I will not get any pleasure to see a person tortured in a prison for years. The most horrible thing in this sinful world is the torture of people in prisons in China, North Korea, Iran, etc. I can not even watch a torture scene in a movie! The eternal torture of people in hell is much worse than the worst jail in the most horrible country.

    So in all honesty, I will be so happy if you are correct in your interpretation of this topic. I pray that the Lord will get glory out of this topic. I pray that He will open our eyes and teach us the truth. That is all that we want, truth.

    On a different topic, the video clip is cool, but I wonder if God really likes Clapton’s music. There I may not agree with the narrator.

    Tony, do you have a link to the book?


  130. Shelly, that was funny! Vic, i’ll get you a link but to just google it is very simple. and so far as, “the cure” goes, well, if we knew all that, we would take advantage of it and i’m afraid we would go overboard acting like animals , when that was not His purpose for us.


  131. Tony – I would caution you against anything written by Del Tondo. Just reading the publishers summary and a little bit on their website he is part of a movement that promotes a dangerous heresy. His sect promotes a belief that in the New Testament only the words of Jesus are inspired words of God. This is dangerous in that it undermines all of the books of the New Testament written by Paul especially as not “God breathed” as the scripture itself claims. It must go further to also undermine 2 Peter by claiming it was a late pseudoepigraphical forgery – which there is much evidence it is NOT. I would go beyond that to also suggest it undermines through its approach also the Gospel of Luke and Acts which were written by a companion of Paul. No, this is not profitable reading to entertain poor arguments that all scripture is NOT God breathed. My question then – if we reject all of Paul’s epistles, some of Peters – why not also reject Hebrews for whom the authorship is not known, James, Jude, John’s epistles and even Revelation?

    NO – a claim of “Jesus words only” is a blatent attempt to undermine the Gospel of grace and reinstitute a self-idolatrous form of legalism that will send many to Hell.


  132. Why is there such ambiguity in the Bible?

    post 1
    Things are settled down on the homefront (have a time window) now….i’m going to give this a shot now.

    In brief, i’m addressing the questions of ambiguity on the whole Word of God but i want to briefly mention the “why” in regard to prophecy in general first…very briefly….just two main reasons, there are plenty more but these two seem to me the primary ones.
    1. As we all are aware, many parts are sealed until the end.
    2. For confirmation of truth after the fulfillment rather than to predict the future.
    Now, “why”, so much ambiguity that clearly fosters division among the texts that are primarily designed to teach doctrine?
    ………….What matters most?…………..
    The things i’m typing here are from memory and the dates will be just general markers and could be in error…..i just haven’t the time to re-research everything for perfect accuracy, and so i apologize in advance for errors i make in that regard.

    cont. to post 2………….

    ………….post 2……………
    1.From the first roots of the church up until , say 300-400 AD unity was fairly strong, that’s the way God knew it would be of course.
    2.Then came the “Power Grab”, Papacy, As far as church unity, God shows the church corporately that we “primarily Gentile Church”, were/are Prideful, Greedy, Selfish, and Self-Righteous.
    3. The dark ages follow for over a 1,000 years……just try to get your mind around that just a while……try to imagine what it must have been like to be a Real Christian. “Where is God’s instruction for me?” “Where do i find truth?” “what is true?” “If i know anything of God it mostly comes to me from what someone else has committed to memory or if I work for my lowly wage i may earn enough in a Year or Two to have a hand written Gospel of John”. “Yes, praise You My Wonderful Lord and Saviour, that’s what I shall do, I shall give my Years Labor to Know What You require of Thy humble servant”.
    Among True Christians… you suppose Pride,Greed, Selfishness, and Self-Righteousness was greatly cultivated in their hearts or were these bitter fruit left unattended to rot as they should?

    What did God Himself Require of true Christians “in the dark” ?

    post 3……….

    4. About the mid 1300’s, By the grace of God, John Wycliffe produces the first Bible in the English language. The Light of the Gospel begins to flicker, but not before he patiently ran his race against the Papacy that sent him into poverty and banshied him as a heretic, burning his bones and killing any who spoke anything against their doing so.
    Still, what the Devil ment for harm, the Lord knew would give rise and growth to the Humble, Base, and Hungry body of the True Church……….. of Real Christians.

    What did God Require ?

    5.Was the memory of what the True church had endured until then enough to prevail against and break the will of God’s chosen? No. Faithful they remained, with maybe just a page or a portion of a page….maybe just one verse written and many many more hidden in their hearts.
    pause again and ponder that for a while.

    What of God’s truth did He require of them?

    cont. to post 4

    post 4…………

    6. Now, during the time between John Wycliffe around 1350 and William Tyndale around 1520, Where do you suppose the Perfect Word of God was? I think the Perfect Word was living in the Hearts of His Children who were doers of His Word… best as they were able to. The Spirit of God was most powerful in the hearts of His Children then I believe.

    God’s requirement?

    7. So then, along comes William Tyndale, Martin Luther,and the Protestant Reformation. Along with such a Great Reformation is also enjoined to the True Church, Great Responsibility and Accountability. Now the candle of God’s People is burning brightly and the Perfect Word of God is nearly within reach of the masses…….at least those who Labored to attain a Printed copy.

    8. About a hundred years more and the first Bible printed for the masses had to be printed in Geneva because Mary, the Queen of England was greatly empowered by the Roman Church to hunt down and kill those who wished to have their own Personal Printed Bible in English whereby they may Learn of and Study the Blessed Word of God for themselves. The Coverdale, Great Bible, and Bishops Bible printed before Geneva was printed primarily for Bishops and Clergy but not the common layman. The Geneva Study Bible was made for the People of God………the first one in English for the masses.
    It was still very Costly to own one but they were available…………Costly not only monetarily, but as i said, until about the 1570’s it could have meant your life if you were found with it.
    Try to wrap your mind around that……the First Study Bible…..possible death to own one.

    What did God require then?

    Cont. to post 5

    post 5………….

    9. After the late 1570’s the printing of the Geneva Bible could be done in England thanks to Queen Elizabeth and the Word of God in English was freely read, owned and learned by the masses without fear of death. In 1611 The first King James Bible was printed in folio (very large) and was primarily used and read by the clergy but within a few years copies were sized down and printed by the hoards, and finally, many, many many of God’s children owned one.
    It must have been such a glorious and wonderful time to finally have such a wide distribution of God’s Word. But why did it take so long? Why?

    But what did God require?

    10. Backing up just a little bit. before the printing of the 1611 King James Bible, there occurred something called, The Great Ejection. Many wonderful minsters of the Word of God were ejected from the Church of England and became Nonconformists. They, in short, would not “Conform” to, and be in Absolute Agreement with the 39 Articles of the Church of England. These “Dissenters”found themselves under heavy persecution, imprisonment and even fear of death from their own protestant “Brothers”.
    So, even though the Beautiful and Glorious Word of God was so greatly read and learned, from about 1606 until i think 1696, Christians, true Christians the most of them it seems, literally slandered, war-ed and fought among themselves…even killing each-other………..for what they THOUGHT mattered……for what they THOUGHT true.

    But what really “mattered” ? What did God require?

    cont. to post 6

    post 6…………..

    11. The early 1700’s was met with, guess what, right, more controversy, but at least Christians were not imprisoning eachother. Oh they slandered, mocked,ridiculed and hated eachother, but usually not to the point of literally killing eachother.
    But Jesus didn’t say we had to literally kill a person to be a “murderer” did he? So, the “murdering” continued, all the while finally having a vast distribution of God’s Precious Word that Commands us to love one another. But each “Side” was absolutely convinced that they were “Right” and the “Others” were “Wrong”. I guess “Loving” to “Contend” for the faith and the “Truth” was vastly more important than Loving eachother.

    They had such great access to the Word of God than previously had been. To whom much is given, much is required.

    But what did God require?

    12. By the 1800’s the candle of the Gospel was burning at both ends (Calvinism and Methodism), and missionaries began to be sent out from America and England and the Church was on fire with the Gospel in hand. Volumes and volumes of studies and sermons in print. Bible Dictionaries, Commentaries, Church Histories, Theological Apologies and Bibles, Bibles and more Bibles printed by the thousands. Praise God! freedom to worship and learn God’s requirements of His people. Much, so much was given to us.

    But what mattered most? What did God require?

    cont. to post 7

    post 7…………

    13. Now in the 1900’s spiritualism and the modern roots of new age filth was heavily influencing and infiltrating the Church, having begun about the mid 1800’s. Good reason to stay vigilant for the Truth and the Pure Word of God, but not a licence to be a religious vigilante. No need to gather around the throne of God while we’re “seated in Christ in heavenly places”, and wait to catch Him should He begin to lose His Seat.
    “Doctrine” and “Truth” police, that’s what the modern era brought really in the Church. Sure, false doctrine must be confronted and exposed, but is that how Jesus said the unsaved would know we are His disciples?

    14. Here we are past the year 2000 and, gosh, we have been given so much, so very very much. We try and try to learn and learn and learn; but the Word of God is just so unclear in certain matters. Perfect understanding of doctrine just seems to elude us. We can, most of us, sit in the comfort of our homes with our stacks and Stacks and STACKS of Bibles, commentaries and study helps of every kind and read and read and read, but still, Why can’t we understand the truth, completely, i mean absolutely and Completely?

    15. Why? Why is the Word of God so unclear?

    16. Because………………………………………….That’s not what Matters Most.

    17. Then What “Matters Most”?

    cont. to post 8

    post 8………………

    18. Grow up…………………………that’s what “Matters Most”

    19. How? How do we “Grow Up”, individualy and as the Body of Christ?

    20. …………………………………Ephesians 4…………………………………….

    1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye …………………..walk worthy………………… of the vocation wherewith ye are called
    2 With ………………..all lowliness and meekness………………, with……………………… longsuffering,……………….. forbearing one another………………. in ………………Love;
    3 ……Endeavouring…………. to keep the unity of the Spirit ………….in the bond……….. of peace.
    4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are ………….called in one hope…………… of your calling;
    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
    7 But unto every one of us is given grace…………. according……………. to the measure of the gift of Christ.
    8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and ………gave gifts…… unto men.
    9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
    10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
    11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    12 For the …………………perfecting………………… of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the………………………………………………… edifying ………………………………………………of the body of Christ:
    13 Till we all come in the………….. unity of the faith…………, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto ………………………………………..a perfect man…………………………………….., unto the…………… measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
    14 ……………………………………………..That………………………………………………… we henceforth………………………………………… be no more children…………………………………………………, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
    15 But…………………………………………. speaking the truth in love…………………………………………., may ………………………………………….GROW UP……………………………………………….. into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
    16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

    cont. to post 9

    post 9…………..

    21. Now, what does God Require?

    …………………………………………..Micah 6:8………………………………….

    He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?


  133. Tony, the book you recommended( from a quick glance ) fuels the fire’s of hatred even more today against the apostle Paul. Why am I not surprised. I don’t have the time right now to read the book but will find the link Mr Sheep.mentioned.
    Would you mind if I ask who advised you read that ?
    Thank-you Rob for sounding the alarm on that.
    As I said before I would be much rather hated for truth’s sake then be loved for deception.There is a reason why I say that and it goes back to my unsaved days 😉


  134. shorttribber. thank you. how edifying! makes me praise \ 0 / The Lord for such a timely word as was given to you to share with us. 😉


  135. Peace Like a River………….That Flows From God Above…….Easy to Receive……Joy Everlasting…….Upon the Saints of God.

    God’s Good Pleasure…….Is To be Ours.


  136. nice job tribber,…i have had the pleasure of hearing you recite all of that to me before and i do remember it all. The perspective it lays out is valuable. /// Now then, Colleen…just how did i stumble upon the link to Del Tondos book, lets see hear, or is that, lets see here, or maybe its, lets see and hear here! Boy oh boy do you ever ask hard questions Coll,…urghhhhh! Oh yea, now i remember, but first i want to say that as near as i can tell, i have somewhat more of an inquiring mind / in the way of openmindedness about a lot of this bible stuff than some or most of you at this site, or at least it appears that way to me. Perhaps just the opposite is true and i’ve got it backwards.??? Ultimately its kind of a hard thing to guage, i suppose. /// Now i’ll give you the short of it,….the, “what i’m wondering” part. Its really very simple. First and foremost; Yahweh’s son, our Lord and redeemer YAHSHUA [Joshua], goes to the cross to save us for all eternity from the powers of darkness, bringing us to His Fathers Kingdom of Light-
    the Kingdom of Heaven, as we come to the Father by way of Faith [ we are saved by ‘grace’ through faith in the blood sacrifice of Yashua as the lamb of God, as He died for our sins] in His son, as God made flesh! We now strive to honor Our Father and His Son- our Lord and savior- by walking in obedience to His commands, respecting Him and Loving Him and Trusting Him, Thanking Him and Rejoicing in Him! By walking in accordance to His word we work out our salvation daily with fear and trembling – so to speak. We do our best to follow the 10 commandments [ all ten ] and seek to participate in the Lord’s Feast days / Holy convocations while refraining to conform to the ways of the worlds apostate religions and the associated pagan holidays. Yes we all fall short in our attempts at walking in perfect obedience and miss the mark of excellence, but because of Yahshua’s finished work on the cross and our acceptance of His gift of unmerited favor, we come to Our Father cleansed and He sees us as Righteous – Forgiven, and He accepts us and welcomes us into His presence. Fear not,…Let not your heart be troubled, ….carry on, His Love is calling to us ALL. in my mind and in my spirit this is plain and simple, cut and dry. Peace of Yashua to you all. Hosanna in the Highest, blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.
    So as you see, i believe that we are to follow Torah to the best of our ability- as we rely upon the Holy Spirit of Truth to work in us,…all the while trusting in the finished work of our messiah at the cross first and foremost to assure us our redemption. No, we are not saved by our works. I believe it was God Himself who told me to take a look at Del Tondos book,…and i also believe that God [ His Spirit of Truth ] lead me to share what i was looking at with you all. If Paul is saying not to follow the Law of God, that it is not worth trying to please God in this way, i disagree with him. When scripture says in the last days lawlessness will abound, i take that to mean – no regard for the Torah. i ask you,” am i very wrong to waunder in the fear of a never ending life”? and, ” am i very wrong to try to close my ears to the sounds they play so loud”? i ask, Who does Paul think he is?


  137. p.s. thanks Sheep n Vic for the heads up on some of the content of the Del Tondo book, i’ll take heed and be cautious. Colleen, it all started[ in a way ] when i was over at last trumpet ministries looking at an article written by Douglas Nicholas on the soon coming of our Lord, on his research as a pastor into Torah and into who Paul really was!??etc. Earlier this week i spent time at a site called followers of yah- i took in a series of their videos called False Armageddon as well as noticing some other interesting teachings of theirs; putting Yahshua’s work on the cross first and not leaving out following Torah as a follow thru. Our Lord’s Feast day celebrations seem pertinent to my understanding of scripture as they are shadows of things to come. I am formulating,…and gravitating toward hebrew roots in some degree,…a balanced degree, i pray for wisdom.


  138. Maggie is all over me! She is like a lamb and it gives me the feeling of being her shepard. i love her. We are enjoying each others company,…..happiness is togetherness! God brought us together in the way of a miracle! My oh my, what a thing, to “BELIEVE”!


  139. ” Who does Paul think he is?”

    We need to talk……..and soon…….You’re very much misunderstanding Paul….very, Very much.


  140. Tony you said ” ” Who does Paul think he is?”

    He thought himself to be the chief of sinners 😉

    Who did God say Paul was?

    An apostle ( not from men , but by Jesus Christ and God the Father )
    The gospel he preached was NOT according to man. He neither received it from man, nor was he taught it, but it came by revelation of Jesus Christ { personally on the road to Damascus }
    I loved that he did not confer with flesh and blood. He counted all things as dung and suffered immensely for the cause of Christ 😉

    Paul is my favourite apostle as my salvation {transformation} was very similar to his. NO I DID NOT SEE JESUS Christ but the Holy Spirit convicted me of my disgusting sins all alone in my room on that day in March 20 yrs ago 🙂 NO man asked me to say the sinner’s prayer or was in a church that ” moved me emotionally ” to ask Jesus into my ” heart”. God’s Holy Spirit convicted me of every vile sin as He shone His glorious light into my heart and gave me a choice. I accepted the TRUTH about MYSELF and begging Him to save me . As I fell to my knees in pleading for forgiveness I stood up and caught a glimpse of myself in the mirror. My countenance had changed. Almost too afraid to ask { it was if the Lord Jesus was standing right there next to me } I asked , ” Lord what did you just do to me” ? The Holy Spirit led me to find a bible and read John 3 V 3 .

    I’ve never been the same since then 🙂 How can one be ?


  141. Rest assured, The Father, Our Father is present in my life at ALL times. I wonder, i question and i learn. I sometimes drift but always come back on course, thanks to Him who i trust with my life. Your testimony is beautiful! i question paul but have not written him off by any means,…thank you for your feedback and the reminders about paul,… now i want to keep looking into this matter further, trusting Our Father as we go along one step at a time. I’ll give you a link that questions paul and if you would care to discerningly examine it then please do so at your own pace. We have heard all there “good things” on paul,…now lets consider what other things are being pointed out concerning him,………opposing viewpoints.


  142. Rob / Sheep, i have just re-read your comment above and i see what you are saying and really feel as though you have said it well to say the least. Again i say thank you, now i have to carefully and prayerfully satisfy my own curiosity on the matter. Any comment of mine that is not welcomed and not accepted to print out on this matter, is certainly ok with me. i understand that much from your all viewpoint.


  143. “We have heard all there “good things” on paul,…now lets consider what other things are being pointed out concerning him,………opposing viewpoints.”

    No……..God’s Word is Pure, The Testimony of the Lord is Sure and Righteous All Together.
    They that will Take away from it Do So VERY Foolishly………Rest in the Surety of God’s Word that He HAS SURELY Preserved For us……Purified in the Earth SEVEN Times.

    I’ll call you later tonight Tony


  144. i welcome your friendship and your concern and help that you so genuinely and skillfully offer Rick. Look forward to it. God, this is awesome~!


  145. Shorttriber,
    when I read your summary on church history, and on what happens as the Bible becomes available in people’s own languages, I was reminded of the documentary I saw yesterday:

    ‘Trouble In Amish Paradise’
    “When two radical Amish men, Ephraim and Jesse Stoltzfus, start to question some of the most fundamental aspects of their Amish culture [after reading the Bible for themselves], they face excommunication from their church and total rejection by their friends and family.”


  146. Ingela, i watched about 3/4’s of it before falling off to sleep,…it was a moving story and it moved me. I suppose if i was older i’d say, “my oh my”! and really mean it! this is about waking up! Boy did i see some other good video debates too, sort of along these lines., but different. I’ll be back w/ details [names].


  147. here we go, its on you tube video,…Licona vs. Ehrman debate. Really interesting stuff on the ,”inspired – preserved, word of God. worth the look, at least i thought so.


  148. The testimony of these (former) Amish brethren is so precious. How the Word sets them free!

    Such a vast difference between their sweet, Christ centered worship, and the ‘outpouring/revival’ we have over here, with all the weird manifestations at its center…
    Worlds apart.


  149. Bart Ehrman is an idiot who recycles the same tired atheist drivel to promote his worship of himself and how smart he believes he is. I haven’t seen a word he’s written pass the scrutiny of serious bible scholars – but the media loves him because like Dan Brown and others he makes for good headlines bashing the Bible.


  150. Ichabod Mr Sheep Ichabod.

    Jer 5:31
    The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?


  151. that is why my time is mostly spent reading the Bible than other people’s offerings. i want my mind and heart filled by the Wonderful Counselor! it is at the forefront as my Resource and other things are very much background in comparison. if we do not take the time to read and meditate on His Word we can fall prey to the many false presentations (and don’t some sound so “biblical”?) because Only the Word can show me the Truth so i can detect the lies that are absolutely rampant (wolves in sheep’s clothing). the Spirit of God promises us all the understanding we need to live everyday.. \ 0 / ..come what may. the Truth is available for the taking–but how many truly “feed” there?. as they say–garbage in-garbage out. Thy Word have i hid in my heart that i might not sin against Thee. ps 119:11 and to bring to memory unless we are somehow forgetting……Jesus loves you 🙂


  152. Amen sis Andre amen!!

    Lying spirits that the Lord allows in His Sovereign will and divine plan in times past and as in the present.It’s to weed out the tares, the chaff, the leaven and for this powerful WORD of God NOT TO RETURN VOID .
    1Cr 11:19
    For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

    Rom 1:22
    Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    1Cr 1:19
    For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

    1Cr 3:18
    Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

    2Ch 18:20
    Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?

    2Ch 18:21
    And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.

    The consequence :

    When the glory of the Lord is removed unfortunately it SHOWS!

    Rev 2:4
    Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

    Satan is so subtle, so diabolically seductive when he tries to s e d u c e one away from the WORD of God with these extra biblical ” truth’s” and so called ” insights” to new revelation’s and thoughts, sadly so many are intoxicated with this poison that the WORD of God is an offence !

    The solution :

    Deu 13:6
    If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

    I’m currently doing a study on how Sampson was ENTICED by his wife and how after that the ANOINTING of God left him. It’s fascinating that not much has changed since then 😦

    These diabolical days calls one to be overly cautious , I take this very seriously.

    Mic 7:5
    Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.

    Mic 7:6
    For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man’s enemies are the men of his own house.

    Mic 7:7
    Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.

    I will end off my ” vent ” with a quote and NO I’m not endorsing the person that wrote it, it’s just that it mirror’s my own personal stand 😉

    “I am no man’s personal enemy. I have neither time nor inclination to trouble myself about persons, or their affairs. But when they approach me on the premises of the Truth, then they are either my friends or my foes, and I am theirs. I am their friend for the Truth’s sake.
    I would rather be the friend than the foe of anyone upon any ground.”


  153. ” my oh my”,…i’m getting the same from all of my christian friends. WARNING , WARNING….DANGER,….kinda like those warning lights that come on in your car, which people sometimes refer to as IDIOT lights! i take heed when those lights come on and don’t consider them to be” idiot “lights at all. ie.,…low on oil, or low on water/antifreeze, or low on voltage = battery, alternator, or belt problem etc.,…. also i have had incredible success,[ all the while calling upon my Father God for assistance], in dire situations with vehicle problems and against all odds,…….making it to my destination safely without damage to the vehicle. Instead i’ve come home with a testimony of against logic miracle. I trust my Father and i take heed of warning lights. Thank you all for your feedback. i seem to wonder…and choose to play devils advocate to see how others handle the controversial / opposing viewpoints. Do they handle them with gut feelings, or with scripture, or with thoughtfulness and solid complete scripture that makes sense in a convincing [ heavy-duty] way? Do they get angry and lose composure or come across out of character? i am testing, watching and wondering???, as i faithfully wait upon the Lord Yahshua. You may be able to tell that i am ultimately wondering about wether or not, “unbelivers” are all necessarily considered to be actual unbelivers in Gods viewpoint as He judges the heart of each of us!??? Ingela, i love that amish video!!! it proves a point!


  154. Ingela, the endtimepilgrim links you set up on this page, many comments back, are rather amazing with respect to scriptural references on JUDGEMENT. Gavin Finley is one of my favorites. He uses scripture well, to shed light and bring understanding. WOW! He goes on at length and i am going back for more,….it is helpful,…he is through in his presentations. Thanks Ingela, and God Bless you all over yonder. in Christ Yahshua forever…….


  155. Tony,
    I’m glad you enjoyed Endtime Pilgrim. I do too.
    That he is ‘thorough’ is almost an understatement…!
    What I like is, that he writes with a devotional aspect on the end times – instead of just speculations or sensationalism. You actually end up being built up in your faith. And Christ is glorified.

    Keep on going back for more articles! 🙂


  156. Hi Ingela, will do! Thank you,…………the day of His return is approaching and i fully trust Him with my life. Praise God from whom all blessings flow! just like the sun over the mountaintop, He warms us and gives us light to see. He carries us when we are in need of being carried. Carry on,….His Love is calling to us ALL!


  157. tony, you are a loved brother here and i am praying for you….time is a valuable thing……..i pray that you will stake out the time and in earnest re-discover *** the Lord’s Love Letter *** the Bible *** to be your soul’s very sustenance. He is the Author we as christians should be most spending time reading that we may truly Know Him. matt 4:4 and luke 4:4 says: man shall not live by bread alone but by every word of God. (the whole canon of Scripture that includes the inspired words of God given to apostle paul). what you call curiosity-but may not fully realize-is likely a very deep hungering and thirsting———–that Only God’s Word can satisfy. if we skip a few meals in the physical realm we can feel it-but skipping daily meals of God’s word is much worse on us and creates deep unrest in our souls. and one more thing…………why do you seem to (by your own admission) put us to a test brother? and frankly the devil has enough advocates already without any of us joining that chorus right? i hope that you hear my heart in these words i’ve written.


  158. Andrea, you are really something. i have always looked to see how my brothers and sisters in Christ react to the things i wonder about that sometimes are off the beaten path, this has been going on for the last 30 years, from time to time. I didn’t necessarily mean to use the word test, however its a good word in the long run and i’m glad it came forth. JESUS / YAHSHUA is my very soul’s sustenance. I feel drawn to the Bible and not away from the Love letter. I will make a routine practice of reading scripture daily and i have not disregarded pauls writings,…just questioned them in light of what i had came across on a website. Before i had a computer i use to read lots of books in my pursuit of knowing God, a great deal of these books were written by Christian authors who were using scripture as their base. Hudson Taylor, A.W.Tozer, Francis Schaeffer, Dave Hunt, Constance Cumbey, Billy Graham,etc, Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley,..the list goes on and on,…Josh McDowell,”Evidence that demands a verdict”, More than a carpenter”, as well as Lee Strobel etc,../// Also i fellowshiped and still sometimes do at local churches and engaged in bible studies…and soaked it up. What can i say, this is what it has made of me,someone who is loaded with faith and yet still questions things. i feel fine and at peace most all of the time and i walk in hope and in joy because of my savior’s love. To me, the Love of God is real!, and it runs thru me like water runs thru a hose,…i put it out there unashamedly claiming His name. I sense the return of Yahshua as prophecy is being fulfilled right before our very eyes. I pray, i knock, seek and i ask., and i love and encourage others as well all because of HIS LOVE and all because of HIM. i am grateful that you care, and that goes full circle back to what i started out saying on this comment. Andrea, you are really something! Thanks and God Bless………hey, Btw do you like that song about the green, green grass of home,…………..and down the road, i look, and there is Mary, hair of gold and lips of cheery,its good to touch, the green green grass of home. Andrea you are so nice


  159. so glad you wrote these things tony. i am encouraged. glad to know that you take to heart what i wrote about the daily reading of God’s Word. i also know that you love the Lord. i can tell in things you have written all along that He is your Savior. oh it is good that iron sharpens iron! i need that-like we all do! so brother i am thankful that you keep on keepn’ on in that walk with Jesus. let’s all stay fixed upon His Every Word like Jesus told us to!!!!!!! \ 0 / He is our Very Life! all that upholds Him and the Precious Word of God-not casting doubt as some of the misinformed or devious ones of the devil are want to do-exalting that Sure Word from The Author of Life Himself is a rich benefit to our walk. the path is rocky and it is narrow and sometimes dimly lit–(that dark glass thing)–it is a walk of Faith for sure-but i want to make certain that i take heed not to stumble–nor stumble others……(and when i stumble Jesus will pick me up 🙂 thank You Faithful Lord! ) God promises Light for us daily and His Spirit will not fail in His Duty to teach, convict, inspire, enable God’s children. we are like sheep alright! we sure need the Good Shepherd. tony you are really something yourself! God bless you–muh brutha 😉


  160. …its early, early in the mornin’ and the little dream girl, Maggie, is sleeping oh so soundly,…my oh my, what a thing to behold-she’s like a little baby! She is to me a miracle from God and as i watch her sleep, my heart goes boom, boom, boom!…………….and in the darkness there will always be a light,…….cause we were raised on Love! All of us, praise Our Father in Heaven! carry on in the spirit of His Love,…… the daytime, you could move a mountain! Let us Keep the Faith, together as one, in Him-today and everyday.


  161. …not to get Him mixed up with godzilla, who i hear is also going to be making an appearance,……but God Himself! Heck i need to git that apostrophrie in the rite place,…i’ll try again here. “GOD’S -A- COMIN” BACK”! there, thats better. What could be better than that? \O/ “It couldn’t be better, Lord, than it IS RIGHT NOW”! \O/, yippie! I like your rejoicing stick man representation Andrea. i hope you don’t mind my use of your sweet artwork.


  162. feet to the fire my friend-how’s the Bible reading going tony? 😉 my day is already begun with Worship and the Word. what a way to live–all praise belongs to You oh Lord!


  163. Hi Andrea, i been out all morning/afternoon, home now.Fixin’ to dig in here any minute now, to Gods word. what a morning! Sweet mixed with sad as some real changes are taking place here at home. i trust the Lord, i trust the Father. Perfect timing to draw me into His word, no doubt, i can use Gods assurance in my heart. How can i tell you? like they say, “its all good”, and truly it is-all good, praise Yahshua, you know;”JESUS”! i want radical integrity Lord. its good to be Alive. I can feel something stirin’ inside me now. Guide me now Lord. Take captive my attention. i will write more as this unfolds,…thank you.


  164. yes God will guide tony. in our sorrows and our joys He can further sweeten what is sweet and wonderfully make even the bitter reveal a purpose that will honor Him and comfort you. in both we can and should praise Him because that is right to do. God bless you in that Face to face with Him-His Love letter written as though just for you………………….


  165. Andrea, i got into it for a while and it was good. Read some of Jeremiah and some of 2nd Timothy. i received a rather upsetting phone call from my family out in arizona concerning my younger brother Lou, who is not adapting too well to the loss of our mom, He needs prayer-he tried to take his own life! My God. i will look further into the word this evening,…thank you so much for your encouragement and wisdom-full words. Lou seems to be in good hands now at a treatment center in flagstaff. amen. i hope you and yours, are all well,…i’m prayin’ your boys find Yahshua/Jesus soon! i’m praying/believing! ps maybe i’ll go to the acts book and move thru it. I’m glad you are there Andrea.


  166. Thank you all for the prayers, God is at work in response-defeating the powers of darkness and unbelief. Bless you all so much.


  167. i can hear Him saying, ‘Come to me, all of you who have heavy burdens, and I will give you rest”. The peace of God is ever available, His love is unfailing, He cares and He is calling to us,………right Andrea?!!! Father, Son and Holy Spirit,….i respond with love, trust and JOY / gladness of heart. i give thanks and praise to You O’Lord! This is the day you’ve made, i will rejoice and be glad in it! Thanks ALL! and GOD BE WITH YOU,…ALL!


  168. Fall season is glorifying to God in vermont,….come one, come all!, and visit us! here in southern vermont. Your Welcome Here!, tony


  169. …and git rid of these “HOWLIN” bottles of wine!,……………just kiddin’, r wine jugs don’t howl or yoddle,…..but Maggie does!!! This little girl is CUTE to boot! She kin sing n dance! and skip and go around in circles! She can do the ” geogria crawl “, and……………Her and i can, ” Hear the Judges call “!!!!!!! Now are ya comin’ fer a visit? Are we on track here? LOVE IS CALLING TO US ALL! YAHSHUA IS COMING!, Shout it from the rooftops! Worthy is the Lamb!


  170. The LIE; the Strong Delusion…………that God was vindictive and He was holding Adam and Eve prisoner and it was satan who came to free them and let them know that Godhood was available to them as well! The Truth was exchanged for a lie and the powers of darkness were released.


  171. This deserves a more detailed treatment – Zechariah 11:17 about the worthless shepherd being struck in his right arm and right eye. It probably refers to the final man of perdition, the Antichrist but could also refer to many antichrist who have come that have rejected the work of the good shepherd and have gone the way of the worthless shepherd. The worthless shepherds that exist even within our own church lack the strength that comes from God (the right arm – a common symbol for strength throughout the bible and the side on which God comes to provide his own strength) the right eye is a little tougher since an argument might be made that is the good eye or the eye needed to see clearly in battle – else why would Nahash the Ammonite have wanted to gouge out the right eye of everyone in Israel.

    I guess what I’m saying is that it a)could refer to the final Antichrist that is to rise in the final days before Christ’s return but it could it also refer to antichrists who have come and keep coming to scatter the flock b) it could apply literally to one man or not or it could apply more symbolically to his condition of weakness and lack of vision (or lack of true vision) in his leadership.


  172. I could never understand these words from the Lord Jesus Christ – “All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.” Now I do 😉 Mark 14:27

    I love that the Lord laughs at those that are so wise in their conceits and yet reveals His ways unto simple and childlike in spirit.It is time to get back to that 😉

    These are the ” secret formulas ” in hearing from the Lord 😉

    See if you can spot them 🙂

    1Cr 1:19
    For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

    1Cr 1:27
    But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

    1Cr 1:28
    And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

    1Cr 1:29
    That no flesh should glory in his presence.

    Luk 10:21
    In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

    God has spoken it in His word that HE will send people a STRONG delusion ONLY because they take ” PLEASURE ” in unrighteousness!

    I refuse to believe that any of the other posters here are guilty of that!

    Isa 5:21
    Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

    It is time to REPENT of the idols in our lives and to get this board back to it’s intended purpose.To glorify God and to exhort each other daily as the dark days of deception are upon us. If God’s word OFFENDS US now, how are we going to stand in the days ahead?

    Idolatry comes in many forms….the IDOL of S E L F is the most self deceptive of them all.

    Jer 51:17
    Every man is brutish by his knowledge; every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.

    Kneeling at the foot of the cross in awe of a Holy God.


  173. It’s back to sackcloth and ashes at the foot of the cross for me too. I had to confess to my brothers in a small bible study in my church that I’m part of last week that there were still instances of me putting myself first in my life that I need to repent of.

    Thanking the Lord for his refining fire and praying that I will have something to wear more than the ashes, something that has been washed and made clean by his blood. Praying that all my brothers and sisters will too – and that we can spur each other on to good works (not for salvation) but so that we will all have something that will remain on the day we stand before the throne.


  174. amen. same here. the older i get it seems the more i find myself in need of Mercy-not less. it is daily that i need reminded in. my. flesh. dwells. no. good. thing. (flesh way of thinking and doing). prone to wander Lord i feel it-prone to leave the God i love….so back on my face i go…and back into the pages of my Bible to see the real me (who often needs to repent) and know the Reality of His Power to not only save but keep me and empower me for righteousness too…….we are His workmanship. eph 2:10. praise God He knows how to finish what He began with our lives. phil 1:6 ! we all need each others encouragement to stay real–our faces before the Mirror–the Word of God.


  175. over the past few days i got thru an 8 hr youtube video presentation called, The Arrivals. i was drawn to it and to me it was a type of bible study,……..Andrea, i have been going also to the word but i would like your help, if you please.


  176. hi tony. i have never heard of this video thing you speak of. glad you are reading the Word and will continue to encourage that. i ask the Lord to make you hungry and thirsty for the Word so that the Bible will be your **go-to** first line of help and defense. i pray that all other help (including me) comes only after you consult with the Wonderful Counselor (because i am no help in comparison) 🙂


  177. Tony,

    The bible teaches we must be wise as serpents and innocent as doves – because our Lord has sent us out among wolves (Matthew 10:16). I fear right now that you are not heeding that advice. The Arrivals is a slickly produced deception, a way to warm you up to Muslim eschatology. These wicked people and demonic forces want to try to confuse you and mix biblical references with their satanic counterfeits. The producers of “The Arrivals” are some of those wolves. If you wish to discuss more email me privately I will not have that type of deception promoted here, and it saddens me that you spent 8 hours of your life absorbing that deception.

    I would second Andre’ recommendation above- go to your Bible for wisdom not other demonic religious texts or crazy conspiracy theories. They are meant to confuse and distract you from the truth found only in God’s word. I would go one step beyond that – get out of your house and find a solid bible-believing, bible preaching church there in Vermont where you are. You may have to do a lot of work to find one, but it is work that the Lord will bless. The local church is just for times like these to encourage believers and equip them with the truth in order to defend them from the schemes of the enemy. I fear that you are walking alone and defenseless, just what the enemy wants. I’ll be praying that you and all of those that read here will find themselves in an assembly of believers that will bring glory to the Lord and help to defend them from our enemy.


  178. Tony I pray that you will heed the godly sound advice from Mr Sheep , not just for your own spiritual well being but for the sake of those that are being defrauded by that which you insist on promoting here.It has now come to an end.
    I say that in much agape love.
    Hey here is an idea for bible study, why not start with the book of Proverb’s . It’s a beautiful book and oh so full of hidden treasures. It’s one of my favourites.

    Pro 27:5
    Open rebuke is better than secret love.


  179. i will give it a try Colleen, thanks and blessings to you my friend/ sister in the Lord. You have been a real delight to me all along and it has been sustaining and very fun too. You have brought much good blessing to me and have shown yourself as a good role model as you live by your convictions. ps, i havn’t defrauded anyone. be careful with your accusations. My spirit was showing itself to be very compliant with the others here as i was very honest and willing to seek the wise counsel that i believe can be found here,…all without you speaking forth w/ your last comment. Everybody here knows i care and that i strive for integrity. i don’t arrogantly promote,…i wonder- spit it out- and ask for feedback, and show appreciation for it, in the spirit of love and respect.,..and yes i do love and respect you.


  180. Tony I am not falsely accusing you of anything and I’m coming to you in a spirit of love, humility and respect. I have no desire to make a huge ” debate ” about this but you have posted some pretty seriously deceptive links and authors in your musings and if you wish to discuss this with Mr Sheep before posting them then that would not only bless us all but will protect the board as well. If you can recall there have been countless times that these were addressed.

    As soon as we start to c o m p r o m i s e that’s when Satan get’s a foothold which leads to a stronghold right? We’re told to GAURD our hearts and minds in Christ Jesus amen?

    Thank-you for hearing my heart and if we want to speak the truth in love, we would have to admit that it’s been pretty dry around here lately. Spiritually that is.It has been sad to watch.

    Please forgive me guys and please don’t take it personally but it is time to get back to our FIRST LOVE!!!!!!

    I have 😉


  181. o.k., i hear ,…all good,..thanks for your reasonable reply. carry on! i agree with the contact with Sheep first and do think i should of gone that route,..your right.


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