Really? You want to go this way? Be petty. Fine. This is quite typical of Christians today. You do not understand the Bible and you use scripture out of context.
Galatians 5:4 has nothing to do with being obedient but everything to do with following the law for salvation. If you read on to verse 6 Paul clearly is showing how it is faith here that he is arguing. Salvation comes only by trusting in Jesus. No disagreements here.
Galatians 2:16 – same thing as above. This is about obtaining salvation and having faith. Not being obedient.
Galatians 2:21 – again same thing as above.
Galatians 3:10-11 ditto
Galatians 5:14 – not sure what the point is here regarding the Sabbath. Jesus even said that you could sum up the commandments into two……this does not prove anything.
What does scripture say about the the Sabbath and the Commandments, which commandments? Aren’t there only one set of Commandments?
Jesus came here as an example for us correct? Luke 4:16 – …as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
For those who believe obeying the commandments are legalistic you may have a problem with Jesus’ next statement. Jesus said he kept his Father’s commandments and we need to as well. John 15:10 – if ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. I could stop right here, but there is so much more.
All throughout the 4 Gospels the Pharisees try and show how Jesus and the disciples violated the Sabbath. Jesus refuted them by showing how they still honored the sabbath. Not going to provide all the scripture on this since there is so much.
Paul regularly spoke on the Sabbath in the synagogues. Acts 17:2 – And Paul, as his manner was, went I unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures. Acts 18:4 – and he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the GREEKS. (emphasis mine). Paul, on the sabbath met in the synagogue with Greeks. If Paul expected Christians to follow the now popular “Lord’s Day” then why does he speak to them on the sabbath. Why do none of the disciples tell us to meet on Sunday? In fact the early church continued to meet on the sabbath. No where in the Bible did the disciples show they abandoned meeting in the synagogue on the sabbath. The Greeks requested for the next sabbath that Paul and others contribute there words. Acts 13:42 – and when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles be sought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. If Sunday was the new day to worship then why would they ask them to come back the next sabbath? Here was a good time for Paul to state we do not have to wait until the next sabbath we can meet tomorrow. He does not and in verse 44 it states “and the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God”.
Hebrews 4:1-11 take a quick read of these verses. Here, whomever the author is, is speaking about the true sabbath. These verses are very clear that we are to enter this day of rest on a “certain day”.
We are also told when Jesus returns that we will still be following the Sabbath. Isaiah 66:22-33.
Since most of us that come to this site are looking for Jesus’ return, what about Matthew 24:20 where Jesus tells us to pray that our flight OT being during the winter or on the sabbath. If keeping the sabbath was not important why would Jesus say this.
Or how about Rev 12:17 – and the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Who was the dragon going after? Those who kept the commandments.
Rev 14:12 – here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 – Blesses are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life….
You can keep man’s traditions or follow God’s words. We are told over and over again to follow his commandments. This is not legalistic but being obedient. This is not to obtain salvation!!!
There are only one set of commandments and keeping the Sabbath is one of them. This is not a Hebrews Roots Movement. This is a follow the scripture not man’s traditions movement.
I understand the point of this post. I grew up Protestant, but recently decided to start attending a Messianic Jewish church with my husband. After Saturday service, they asked us to stay, but we said we had to go because we had promised to help our brother move. They were all appalled and said, “ON THE SABBATH?” One girl went off about the importance of observing the Sabbath in such and such a way, don’t do this work, don’t do that work, etc. But Galatians 5:4 says we don’t have to burden ourselves with Sabbath rules. Sure, we can choose to honor God by honoring the Sabbath. But when we start judging other people and thinking that we are somehow more justified than other believers just because we choose to keep the Sabbath in a certain way, that negates the work Jesus did on the cross. In other words, keeping the Sabbath or not keeping the Sabbath is not the issue–it’s the intent and attitude behind why a person is keeping it. If a person keeps the Sabbath in order to be justified through his own actions, that is rejecting Christ and attempting justification by law. If instead a person freely accepts grace but keeps the Sabbath as a thank offering for the work that Christ did on the Cross, that is different. God knows our hearts, and in the end, it’s your heart that will matter, not what you did or didn’t do on the Sabbath.
Nicely done, Agie! I think it’s interesting that once again, the poster of the poster (ha!) is assuming that we who love Shabbat and honor it as a gift of God, as we see all of God’s righteous instructions, assume that we do so to gain merit for salvation. I’ve been told I’m judging. I seek to defend my beliefs by the Word of God, the Word made flesh who dwelt among us and came to reveal his Father in a greater measure. That’s what our LORD meant when He said He came to ‘fulfill’ the law and the prophets, not abolish them. He meant that He would teach them properly. If you will stop and think, read and reflect, on His words as recorded in Matt 5:17-20 and then read the writings of Paul, (Rabbi Sha’ul), with the understanding that he never stopped observing the Torah, nor did he teach that it wasn’t important anymore, you may come to realize that he never did contradict either the Torah or his Messiah. Paul warns us against boasting against the root, the Olive Tree. We, as Christians, have done exactly that. We’ve gone off and planted our own tree.The Jews have missed their Messiah. We’ve missed their Torah which has become our Torah is we are grafted in. Read your New Testament again using Jesus words as the foundational truth. There is no contradiction between Old and New. BTW, Jesus was a Sabbath Keeper. Paul was a Sabbath Keeper. All the apostles were Sabbath Keepers. The 3,000 that were baptized on the Day of Pentecost, were Sabbath Keepers. Lastly, may I refer you to Isaiah 56:1-8 and 58:13, 14. Shabbat Shalom.
Diane, if you are a truly believer in Christ you will want to follow his commandments….all of them. Satan’s plan is to get each Christian to start thinking certain things do not have to be followed. Basically what do you think changing the laws is all about? Do you think it is man’s laws? Goodness no! It is about changing His laws or commandments.
please read all of romans ch 14. read prayerfully-carefully-and be free…………..free yourself and you will let your brother in Christ be free as well. the letter kills and the Spirit makes alive. nuff said.
I agree with John Muncy on this. I have seen people go on and on about how Jesus was never called Jesus because there is no J in the Hebrew, Greek,etc.. Jesus was right.. they swallow a camel and gag at a gnat.
Oh my oh my, how many times have I had to go over and through this with so many over the years of my Christian life. People from Armstrong’s group who had to keep all the feasts each year and travel somewhere, so that the men could not even hold down jobs to make a living to support the family. Thank God I never fell for this one as anyone can see what the outcome of that cult was.
Seventh Day Adventists then come along out of a movement of a prediction of a rapture timing, which most of them do not even know their own history on that one.
The mark of the beast is the Sunday day worship according to them.
Are we saying the name of Jesus right with the J or should we all try to say it with the proper Y, give me a break, do you think God does not know our hearts and who we pray to. So much of this, yes I have for sure met so many who get tied up on all of this and I pray for them and tell them to seek their answers from the holy scriptures and pray for them. Which is what we all have to do.
Perhaps if we lived in a country filled with presecution or were locked away in concentration camps like so many true believers in the days of Hitler, Stalin, and oh so many more this might become easier.
Jesus himself is the rest we enter into, depicted by the sabbath day of rest God gave to man. Hebrews explains all of this so perfectly. I will not try to repeat it.
Should we worship on Friday sunset to Saturday sunset the Hebrew sabbath day? There were other sabbath days as well throughout the feast days. So it was not only the Saturday sabbath or the Sunday sabbath.
Oh well you have to be in church every Sunday if you are truly saved, right? and on Wednesday nites too according to the Southern Baptist tradition, to prove you are really faithful.
Why do we not get it, worship is from the heart, the spirit, not a day? It is total committment to Jesus himself, and doing His will of love for his fellow man. Love is the full final fulfilling of the law. So many places they gather or gathered at any time that they could to share God’s word. Tore bibles into small pieces so that they could have a little bit of it to reflect upon.
Yes we do need to study the old testament for sure, as it is the history of the creation, the calling out of Abraham, the blessings to his descendants, the setting aside a notion, called Israel where God could put his laws out and get them to show an example of what he wanted and required.
The feast days, the sacrificial system, all of it was set in shadows of what was to come to fulfillment in Jesus Christ. All of it. However, Israel could never do it to the fullness needed, that is why God knew he had a better plan for our savior Jesus Christ to come to fulfill for us.
I am so thankful that for reasons I will not list, have been struggled through by prayer, supplication etc to seek the answers to this one. Which each and every believer will have to do for himself. Each has received the holy spirit when they truly repented and accepted the Lord Jesus. He is our comforter, and our teacher who will lead to all truth in Jesus Christ.
Thanks be to God I have entered into the sabbath rest of Jesus Christ who has paid the price for all my sins and all the things I cannot do, worship Saturday or Sunday, attend all the feast days etc.
I submit to you that all need to worship each and every day, and come together when and if you can with those believers who will open the bible and read it and start to see what it says without all the preconceived notions and things you were maybe taught in some denomination. I am free to worship my Lord Jesus any where, any time, any place even if man makes laws for it or against it, it is no matter.
As many who have gone before us know in the history of persecution, I do believe America will also follow into that for it is necessary discipline from our Father that the finish of this time come. Prophecies are being fulfilled in every way all around us.
There is probably not a one of you on here with me that agree on each and every single thing but this I do know, most of us are trying to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ as we have been told to do.
The church is at a time of great trouble as it is so difficult to find the ones who are truly placed in position by Jesus himself to do what the apostles told us to do. But we are not without help, for the first time in history almost many can read and write, many bibles have been translated all around the world. What a privileged and perilous time we are living in. But we have the tools we need, the holy spirit, the building of the prophets and apostles with Jesus being the chief cornerstone, and we are the living stones being built daily into this body of Christ, His church.
1Pe 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
1Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
1Pe 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
1Pe 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
1Pe 5:11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
I do not have all the answers but again I am so thankful that I know the ONE who does, and I will go to Him for my rest.
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mat 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
What people must understand is that we are saved by GRACE. It is Jesus and Jesus only.
Why do people want to burden the babes in Christ with laws? Can anyone please show me in Acts were the apostles instructed the church to keep the Sabbath? Did Paul ever instruct the church to keep the Sabbath? The greatest arguments Jesus had with the scribes was about their hypocrisy in keeping the Sabbath. He never instructed the 12 to keep the Sabbath.
” If a person keeps the Sabbath in order to be justified through his own actions, that is rejecting Christ and attempting justification by law. If instead a person freely accepts grace but keeps the Sabbath as a thank offering for the work that Christ did on the Cross, that is different. God knows our hearts, and in the end, it’s your heart that will matter, not what you did or didn’t do on the Sabbath.”
So also is this
“Why do people want to burden the babes in Christ with laws? Can anyone please show me in Acts were the apostles instructed the church to keep the Sabbath? Did Paul ever instruct the church to keep the Sabbath? The greatest arguments Jesus had with the scribes was about their hypocrisy in keeping the Sabbath. He never instructed the 12 to keep the Sabbath. ”
Freely, Do, what you Believe to be true on this matter……..and you Will Not Offend God.
And that’s all should that matter to any of us………that we Do Not Offend The Lord.
Vic,
how can I post as large a picture as the one you posted above…..there is something we should discuss, and a picture I have would be helpful I think
Again I write the Levitcal Law is nailed to the cross. You people are blind. The apostles never needed to say we need to follow the Sabbath. One, it was never retracted. Two, they continued to live it. No where does it state they gave it up.
The NT says follow the commandments. Jesus said follow his Father’s commandments. The sabbath of the 10 Commandments (nor the others ones) is dead. Without the 10 commandments how do you know how to live? How do you know what is right or wrong? You cannot. The OT foretold the NT and the NT is fulfillment of the old. How do you know if you are being obedient or not?
I can see that scripture is not important to many on here. You want to live according to how you feel. I am done with it. Goodbye…
Mr Baldy , just a quick question. Didn’t you recommend this link some time ago?
The concern is that there is this understanding that we can ESCAPE {?} the pain and suffering in the tribulation by ……..
Quote
.” I came to realize that those who actually make it through all the judgments to the rapture have something different from other Christians who were martyred, and that was that they are observing their worship of God in a Messianic way instead of a paganized way.”
If Levitical law is nailed to the cross and we are supposed to keep every jot and tittle of it, Paul would never have written to the Galatians (chapter 5) and said:
“It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.”
Therefore, the only way anyone could possibly argue that we are obligated to keep the entire law is if that person also argues that Paul is a false apostle and his writings do not belong in the Bible. But if Paul is right, those who would take away others’ freedom in Christ have fallen away from grace and are alienated from Christ.
Furthermore, we have Acts 15 on this issue, which is also instructive:
Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue. Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren. When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”
The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. “And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. “Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? “But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”
I pray for wisdom for all the readers of this blog on this issue.
I can see that scripture is not important to many on here. You want to live according to how you feel. I am done with it. Goodbye…
Oh Agie95
for one thing the Gentiles that the apostles were addressing never ever kept the Jewish sabbath or the laws surrounding them, did they? You think the gentiles had been following the jewish sabbath or for many of them did they even know about it, until the Judaizers went around telling them. How about all the rest of it, you gotta keep it all, not just one part right? Sad sad day.
no they did not and they did not have to begin doing it either
as well the Roman Catholic Church once romanized more and more made Sunday the supposedly Christian sabbath that all had to keep
see what I am saying here had to keep, had to keep, had to keep new law put into effect by them to designate a day
Jesus has become the Sabbath (rest) for the children of God, worship him every day, all day every minute of each day. Meet whenever you possibly can with believers in any way you can. Do not become engulfed in any mans’ rule about this day?
Man was not created for the sabbath or keeping it. The sabbath was created by God to be a day of rest from working, physical etc.
Then the shadow and type of showing was that we are to enter into the rest of salvation and faith in Jesus Christ and cease from our own works no matter what they be in keeping anything.
Sad to see your response, but I know the bible have read it all my life, was taught to read it by my grandmother. I am free in Christ Jesus from any type of man telling me where I am to worship or how or when.
Never will I go under the yoke of bondage to any of this.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. NIV
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.KJV
so tell me agie95 and others how in the world do you figure out what is the true 7th day now even??? impossible for most of us to do and even for those who try to may never get it right
How do you keep from doing any work??? we live in a world now where this is nearly impossible too as well
Even when Israel was set aside, they could not even do it as a nation.
what is wrong with you? call me blind to the scriptures, you are for sure blind to the simple truth of what a yoke you are trying to inflict on people
go ahead but it will never work with me in any way or form, we have been given the holy spirit the laws of god are now written on our hearts and minds so that we obey what God wants each to do, and it may be different, different gifts to each of us for our lives and ministry
I would not criticize anyone for keeping a 7th day Sabbath – if they were convicted in their own heart that this is how they should honor God in their worship. I would criticize them, as Vic has, if by doing so they claim to be “more obedient” or to have better works than me or my church who believe every day is lived first for the Lord, all of our labor is dedicated to the Lord and that we have a extra special day, an extra special double dose of the Sabbath on the first day of the week to recall they day he burst forth from the grave, defeated death and cancelled the debt I could never pay.
I would not criticize a woman for covering her head, though I would criticize man for doing such a thing since 1 Corinthians 11 commands us men not to do such a thing. If a woman covers her head and thinks it makes her more obedient and better disciple of Christ – she is a foolhardy woman. I would hope instead that she enjoys Gods provision of authority in her home and keeps an example of submission to authority that will bless her children, her husband and her church. If she chooses then to cover her head to remind her to pray and to remind her of the God’s perfect plan for leadership in the home and in the church – then it is a blessing and not a stumbling block to anyone else.
If a person decides they prefer the King James version or to learn Hebrew and Greek and read only those because it makes God’s word clearer to them and gives them a reverence for his provision of Life and Truth- wonderful. If that same person decides to use that conviction to claim a more true faith than those of us that value modern textual criticism – I would call them a hypocrite, a fool and a pharisee.
We should have no such disputes in the church – as many have said better than I could its not by any of these works for devotions that any one of us has been saved.
My eleven year old son paraphrased it well when he saw this discussion – “It doesn’t matter what day we keep for the Lord as long as we keep a day holy for the Lord.”
One person considers one day to be above another day. Someone else considers every day to be the same. Each one must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 Whoever observes the day, observes it for the honor of the Lord. Whoever eats, eats for the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; and whoever does not eat, it is for the Lord that he does not eat it, yet he thanks God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 Christ died and came to life for this: that He might rule over both the dead and the living. 10 But you, why do you criticize your brother? Or you, why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before the tribunal of God. 11 For it is written: As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to Me, and every tongue will give praise to God. 12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. The Law of Love 13 Therefore, let us no longer criticize one another. Instead decide never to put a stumbling block or pitfall in your brother’s way.
Romans 14 5-13
Even Christ said when faced with this Pharisee party –
“Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy and not sacrifice. qr For I didn’t come to call the righteous, but sinners.” Matthew 9:13
We can’t claim any righteousness of our own – it is only by Christ’s perfect stainless righteousess that we are made holy. The keep of the Sabbath as a gift toward God – not something to hold over others as obligation is the only right way to view these texts and the old testament, through the lens of the Gospel.
Which would we rather be the proud Pharisee or the humble tax collector? Luke 18:9-13
It seems those that would bind heavy burdens on believers are trying to capitalize on peoples fears about what is going on in the world to draw them into their legalist or judaizing snare. I received an email from a man promoting a book “End Times Delusions” by Steve Wohlberg. I should thank him here, but I read some of this book and researched the author – and my recommendation is against this writer’s teaching. He presents arguments at length on why the pre-trib view is incorrect which I found myself agreeing with at first but then he goes on to trash every other view as well settling on something that set of all kinds of red lights in my spirit – so I read some more about the author to find he is a Seventh Day Adventist – which was not mentioned in any of the early parts of the book that I saw or anywhere else, even though he was pushing an eschatology that leaves room for only what I assume is a typical SDA view. I caution you – some will come in insisting on things other than the truth or that we need some other earthly wisdom. Don’t believe them, search the scriptures and continue on with the Gospel that you’ve already been given by God in his holy word.
Yes, I did recommend the website that you have listed. Isn’t it amazing that in the time(s) that we are currently experiencing and living in with fellow Believers, that there seems to be discrepancies as far as TRUTH?
I know as a South- African I don’t speak ” American” and have a hard time trying to communicate in a way that is understood.
It seems to me that there is an EXPLOSION of deception lately as each one has their OWN interpretation of “TRUTH”, this is mostly based on ” experience” rather than the WORD of God.How sad is that , but the worst is, nobody seems to care!
This path just grew narrower for me in the past few days and wonder if it’s even worth precious time in trying to contend anymore!
These words send chills down my spine- “It seems those that would bind heavy burdens on believers are trying to capitalize on peoples fears about what is going on in the world to draw them into their legalist or judaizing snare.”
It makes sense that the dragon will make war with the saints and overcome them for the 42 mont trib!
Rev 13:4 — And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
What a time to be alive.
Who among us will be able to stand.
We all love you too Vic and praise the Lord for this little place of fellowship.
I pray that each one of us will be part of the “overcomer crowd” as we witness the sad reality that most places of discussion seem to have fallen into the end time delusion.
……………………… idols according to their own understanding.
Over the past few days the latter part of this verse has a newer understanding as the Holy Spirit groans in my body. Oh Lord God of Israel please keep us.
Hbr 3:13 — But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
1Pe 4:1 — Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
Hbr 12:1 — Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
hi everyone-on another note—i just saw this and think the timing is very interesting..and wonder what you folks think… http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4405638,00.html ..seems appropriate for the 9th of av wouldn’t you say? eu (like a lit match) ramping it all up as israel’s enemy neighbors (like a huge gas can) getting ready to blow up……will be soon be needing a new and improved peace and safety agreement ? 😉
Wow Andre. My heart is pounding in my chest. This disputed area is what makes those in Judea flee. The timing falling on the 9th of Av is a huge concern? or am I being way to sensitive again?
Vic we may want to revisit that e-mail discussion in 2010 ?
…..then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Luk 21:20 — And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 — Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Mar 13:14 — But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
“Peace Now said in response that “The EU’s decision sends a clear message: The world doesn’t recognize the settlements and they contradict universal, democratic values. The Israeli government is running a rearguard battle against the international understanding that the Israeli occupation of the territories must end.
I wonder what { who } it was that CONvinced Bibi to halt the construction – for PEACE?
Judgment for daring to place the yoke on Israel’s neck?
Thank-you for the link Andre, it seems as if the Lord’s Word has NOT returned void.
There is a evil that is being manifested that I’ve never witnessed in my walk with the Lord over the past 20 yrs and understand now what the ” wearing” down of the saints will look and feel like. The accuser of the brethren comes to kill steal and destroy and bring false accusations that have no validity, we have not see anything yet!
Vic I will join you in prayer over those two scripture confirmations that we all discussed in 2010 { of the disputed area in Israel } and will wait on the Lord on how He chooses to direct all of His own from here on.
[b]When Europe demanded Israel surrender the Western Wall[/b]
The European Union’s new directive banning any cooperation with Israeli institutions over the Green Line isn’t new, and is actually being implemented for Israel’s benefit, according to the office of the EU’s foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton.
The directive contains two main planks: denial of European funding to, and cooperation with, Israeli institutions based or operating over the Green Line, and a requirement that all future agreements between Israel and the EU — and possibly between Israel and individual member states as well — include a clause in which Israel accepts the European Union’s position that all territory over the Green Line does not belong to Israel.
As Ashton’s office noted in a statement sent to The Times of Israel Tuesday, the directive was “in conformity with the EU long-standing position that Israeli settlements are illegal under international law and with the non-recognition by the EU of Israel’s sovereignty over the occupied territories irrespective of their legal status under domestic Israeli law.”
….As another official noted, the EU’s new policy is in effect demanding that Israel deny — in writing — any rights to the Western Wall, Judaism’s holiest site, as a precondition for signing any agreement with the EU.
Ashton’s office tried to explain that the development was a positive one for Israel.
[b]“This is important in view of the new opportunities that will be offered to Israel (as an ENP [European Neighborhood Policy] partner) for participation in EU programmes and other funding instruments in the 2014-2020 financial framework,” read the statement issued to The Times of Israel.[/b]
“We want Israel to play a full part in these instruments and we want to be sure that Israel’s participation is not put in question so that Israel will be able to make use of all possibilities offered by the new financial framework,” it added.
For more go here..[url]http://www.timesofisrael.com/when-europe-accidentally-demanded-israel-surrender-the-western-wall/[/url]
When Europe demanded Israel surrender the Western Wall
The European Union’s new directive banning any cooperation with Israeli institutions over the Green Line isn’t new, and is actually being implemented for Israel’s benefit, according to the office of the EU’s foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton.
The directive contains two main planks: denial of European funding to, and cooperation with, Israeli institutions based or operating over the Green Line, and a requirement that all future agreements between Israel and the EU — and possibly between Israel and individual member states as well — include a clause in which Israel accepts the European Union’s position that all territory over the Green Line does not belong to Israel.
As Ashton’s office noted in a statement sent to The Times of Israel Tuesday, the directive was “in conformity with the EU long-standing position that Israeli settlements are illegal under international law and with the non-recognition by the EU of Israel’s sovereignty over the occupied territories irrespective of their legal status under domestic Israeli law.”
….As another official noted, the EU’s new policy is in effect demanding that Israel deny — in writing — any rights to the Western Wall, Judaism’s holiest site, as a precondition for signing any agreement with the EU.
Ashton’s office tried to explain that the development was a positive one for Israel.
“This is important in view of the new opportunities that will be offered to Israel (as an ENP [European Neighborhood Policy] partner) for participation in EU programmes and other funding instruments in the 2014-2020 financial framework,” read the statement issued to The Times of Israel.
“We want Israel to play a full part in these instruments and we want to be sure that Israel’s participation is not put in question so that Israel will be able to make use of all possibilities offered by the new financial framework,” it added.
For more go here..[url]http://www.timesofisrael.com/when-europe-accidentally-demanded-israel-surrender-the-western-wall/[/url]
When Europe demanded Israel surrender the Western Wall
The European Union’s new directive banning any cooperation with Israeli institutions over the Green Line isn’t new, and is actually being implemented for Israel’s benefit, according to the office of the EU’s foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton.
The directive contains two main planks: denial of European funding to, and cooperation with, Israeli institutions based or operating over the Green Line, and a requirement that all future agreements between Israel and the EU — and possibly between Israel and individual member states as well — include a clause in which Israel accepts the European Union’s position that all territory over the Green Line does not belong to Israel.
As Ashton’s office noted in a statement sent to The Times of Israel Tuesday, the directive was “in conformity with the EU long-standing position that Israeli settlements are illegal under international law and with the non-recognition by the EU of Israel’s sovereignty over the occupied territories irrespective of their legal status under domestic Israeli law.”
….As another official noted, the EU’s new policy is in effect demanding that Israel deny — in writing — any rights to the Western Wall, Judaism’s holiest site, as a precondition for signing any agreement with the EU.
Ashton’s office tried to explain that the development was a positive one for Israel.
“This is important in view of the new opportunities that will be offered to Israel (as an ENP [European Neighborhood Policy] partner) for participation in EU programmes and other funding instruments in the 2014-2020 financial framework,” read the statement issued to The Times of Israel.
“We want Israel to play a full part in these instruments and we want to be sure that Israel’s participation is not put in question so that Israel will be able to make use of all possibilities offered by the new financial framework,” it added.
Great discussion here. Very interesting developments with the Israel settlements/contracts issue.And 7 years!?!?!?!? Very very spooky and interesting. As someone said above, if Israel formally signs future contracts that say that East Jerusalem and West bank are not a part of Israel, then if EU launches a “human rights peace keeping mission” to bomb the Jews out of the WB, then the EU will just say “Well, you said it wasn’t yours anyway! You admitted it!” “Flee to the mountains” comes to mind, just like someone said above. Very evil.
I must add that politically speaking, the EU is about as useless as they come. They spend billions and billions of Euros, only to accomplish nothing. When they do accomplish something, it is always harmful to small businesses, to tax payers, to Israel….to everyone. Even from an entirely secular perspective, the EU is an absolutely abysmal political disaster. And increasingly tyrannical by the day.
Also, the comments that you posted Curt on how it is for Israel’s “benefit” and how they want them to be able to fully participate in the program, are themselves very spooky. What other programs do they want Israel to participate in that would require such a measure? By the way I saw yer post last night on FP and on yer blog good analysis.
Thank-you all for the links and the discussion.I don’t know how I’m going to keep my emotions in tact till Friday 😉
Vic what does this remind you of ?
“The decision also states that any future agreement signed with Israel must include a section that says the “settlements” are not part of sovereign Israel and therefore not included in the agreement.”
” This is the first time in which a explicit and formal instruction like this is issued. Until now, there were silent understandings and agreements that the EU does not work beyond the Green Line” – as the 1949 Armistice Line is known – “but this is an official and binding prohibition.”
Notice, Ashton (EU High rep) is herself against some of these measures. She got into a big debate with other EU foreign ministers. Since she is a woman, she is disqualified from being the Antichrist. (I’m sure she’s thrilled to hear).
Question is, is there a MAN behind this who keeps causing all this trouble?
Concerning the ENP, I posted the following comments on FP:
milo3 (Curt) wrote: “I am convinced that this “clause” is tied to previously signed on agreements between the EU and Israel, most notably the ENP. The EU is simply trying to enforce previously signed agreements.”
Has anyone noticed that this is a “Beast System” and not a man? There are some who believe that this same “Beast System” is the False Prophet mentioned in Revelation 13 – I beg to differ.
I believe that in the days to come – after this “Beast System”; which arises from the “Sea” mentioned in Revelation 13, sets everything into place for the coming Antichrist “Beast from the Earth” – to take power & control over the entire Earth.
Please give this some consideration, as there may not be a so-called False Prophet – but a system itself that sets up the kingdom of Antichrist.
AND:
Just to note……
For those who have ruled out the ENP – please take this into consideration as well:
Even though there has been an original time period of 2007 -2013 for the ENP to have run it’s course, this does not negate the fact that there still has been a Covenant with Many that has been established – that being the ENP. The time period(s) that have been established 2007 – 2013 and now 2014 -2020 are only 7 year time periods in which funding has been approved for this already “confirmed” Covenant with Many. (Many I believe are missing that crucial point)
So in essence, some may be overlooking the fact that the Covenant with Many is already in place; and with the “Beast System”; aka: EU working it’s magic to put everything in ORDER – we could only be waiting for the coming Antichrist to rise to power.
This ENP deal just won’t go away – nor has is died.
I was thinking the same thing Baldy – and would add neither has the ENP’s author even though he holds no formal office at the moment, yet seems quite vibrant active and energetic for a retired “technocrat”.
Amen Mr Baldy amen! and to all the above comments! Powerfully written David. Thank-you!
A dragon “system” that is governed by an unprecedented evil? And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast.
It’s best to keep in mind that it’s been “given unto him ” { by the Lord } to make war with the saints.This reassures my heart like none other 😉 I suppose it is this that separates the boys { girls } from the men.
No cowards enter into the gates of the eternal city right !
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
Mr B you said – ” So in essence, some may be overlooking the fact that the Covenant with Many is already in place; and with the “Beast System”; aka: EU working it’s magic to put everything in ORDER – we could only be waiting for the coming Antichrist to rise to power.”
Would this be accompanied by the casting out of Lucifer { once and for all } as Michael leaves his position { as the protector of Israel } and makes war with him in the heavenliness?
Would this then cause all h*ll to break loose on earth ? I humbly believe so yes.
Verse 9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
The Lord has promised that He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what [is] in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him . We can’t say we never knew .
I humbly believe the “heads up” was given back in 2010 about the desolation , the compassing and the division of God’s land. Let him that readeth understand.The ENP was part of the road map to destruction. Israel’s planned destruction. 😦
Luk 21:20 — And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 — Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Mar 13:14 — But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
I love that we’re back on track.
It sure has been a major test of endurance and patience.
Phl 3:15 — Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Rev 12:17 — And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
I am still wondering people.. how much die actual evidence is that Christ fullfiled the first 3, 5 years of the 70th week… I am still waiting for solana to come on the scene and yet.. I dont want to defend the ENP when it is not the right thing..
The ENP is our ” heads-up ” and the dividing of the land is the sorrowful consequence.
Let’s wait { patiently } on the Lord to see if that which He has been preparing us for comes to pass.
The Lord’s WORD is true and faithful and He has promised to show us and I know you are led by His spirit! 🙂
Rom 8:14 — For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
He has promised to show us things yet to come.
Jhn 16:13 — Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
About the 70 weeks. Just a question.
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
(Dan 9:24)
shorttribber I am curious, as I am – just as everybody is- looking for the truth. So you can email me at matkleer@telfort.nl or at the website http://www.eindtijdactueel.nl
and yes.. Dan 9:24… pff it is giving me a head arche
“I am still wondering people.. how much die actual evidence is that Christ fullfiled the first 3, 5 years of the 70th week… I am still waiting for solana to come on the scene and yet.. I dont want to defend the ENP when it is not the right thing..”
Mathieu, I don’t want to destroy anyone’s theory concerning End Times Prophecy, but personally I believe that the whole 3.5 year theory “may” have some holes in it, if the ENP turns out to be the real deal.
I say this because the ENP is the only viable 7 year “Covenant with Many” that actually fits the bill as presented by Scripture. (Daniel 9:24-27). This works in conjunction with the fact that during this 7 year time frame – that in it’s “midst” or “middle” sacrifice and offering ceases, as cased by the “he” that is mentioned. Jesus is NOT the “he” mentioned in Daniel 9:27 in my very humble opinion. And this is just one reason why I have ruled out the fact that He fulfilled the 1st half of the 7 year Covenant with Many. This just won’t work for me.
I believe that the “he” mentioned in Daniel 9:27 is the coming Antichrist. Just the plain reading of Scripture demands this understanding. With the ENP having yet ANOTHER 7 year “budgeting” time frame, is solid evidence to consider that it just may well be the Covenant with Many that has been provided by Scripture.
I previously wrote this:
For those who have ruled out the ENP – please take this into consideration as well:
Even though there has been an original time period of 2007 -2013 for the ENP to have run it’s course, this does not negate the fact that there still has been a Covenant with Many that has been established – that being the ENP. The time period(s) that have been established 2007 – 2013 and now 2014 -2020 are only 7 year time periods in which funding has been approved for this already “confirmed” Covenant with Many. (Many I believe are missing that crucial point)
So in essence, some may be overlooking the fact that the Covenant with Many is already in place; and with the “Beast System”; aka: EU working it’s magic to put everything in ORDER – we could only be waiting for the coming Antichrist to rise to power.
Mathieu, and others who are reading this………… please understand that Solana may come back to power – and if the ENP is the real deal, then authority for him will be given for 3.5 years, by the “Beast System” in place. But I believe that it must be within a time frame set for 7 years – this would complete the requirement for a whole and true final week; that appears to be missing, verses 3.5 years. We must remember that the Beast System; and the coming Antichrist are synonymous in that they are working behind the power of Satan – being both a Governmental entity and a man. This could also mean that the “stoppage of sacrifice & grain offering” could be by this same “Beast System”; and not a “literal man”. Keep in mind that the book of Daniel and Revelation both show Symbolic language.
Please don’t rule out the ENP based on your own ideas on how things “should have happened” – or the fact that the 7 years for the original ENP is about to expire. This new renewal of the ENP gives evidence that we were and currently are looking at the right 7 year agreement with “Many” that has been established – and again, it has already been “confirmed” in that the very essence in what it is just won’t go away. It’s the “budgeting” periods in which it’s course is to run is what I believe may be throwing believer’s who are watching off.
In closing, and as I have always stated…..I am not dogmatic about my views, but the facts presented, should definitely be sending us a ‘red flag’ concerning the ENP.
Take a look at this when you have an opportunity Mathieu,
this link has a ton of stuff on it about the 3.5 /division in the midst/ Covenant Confirmation…..tons and tons.
It may require some time to take it all in…….I had much more to share about it but it got derailed and ended before I had the chance to. http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=64776
I will study it, thanks Shorttribber, and thanks mr. Baldy, you have made some exelent points but when you say But I believe that it must be within a time frame set for 7 years – this would complete the requirement for a whole and true final week; that appears to be missing, verses 3.5 years, do you mean It has to be in the original ENP, and what to think of the treaty that is gonna be confirmed for seven years in 2014?
I can see that the way that I am explaining this all is confusing you. “Shorty” and I have had a previous discussion concerning his theory about Jesus fulfilling the 1st half of the final week – and I have had to respectfully disagree. With his theory, Jesus would have to be the “he” that is mentioned in Daniel 9:27 – which would mean that Jesus’ death on the cross would also have to be the abomination that causes desolation. I wholeheartedly disagree with this theory.
The point that I believe that you are missing in my explanation is that I believe that the ENP IS the Covenant with Many. The time period in which it is budgeted, or funded makes no difference. Meaning that the original ENP was “confirmed” as Javier Solana was the person responsible for it’s implementation. The original period was from 2007 – 2013 as we all know. Well now it appears as if nothing will happen during this 7 year time frame as it relates to Bible Prophecy – but this does not take away the fact that the ENP has been established – or “confirmed”. It’s purpose and name (ENP) will just not go away.
Proof of that is the new budgeting period in which it is to continue – and that is now 2014 -2020. So, the funding periods for the ENP’s purpose – which each have been 7 year periods has nothing to do about the ENP being “confirmed” – as it is already in place; but more about the money that will allow it’s purpose to continue.
I hope that I have explained this so that you may understand.
I can see that the way that I am explaining this all is confusing you. “Shorty” and I have had a previous discussion concerning his theory about Jesus fulfilling the 1st half of the final week – and I have had to respectfully disagree. With his theory, Jesus would have to be the “he” that is mentioned in Daniel 9:27 – which would mean that Jesus’ death on the cross would also have to be the abomination that causes desolation
Quoting Mr Baldy…
This is not at all the case Mr Baldy……….the text does not require that conclusion at all.
We will continue to agree to disagree, but please don’t give cause to disprove my position based on that……the text simply does not Require that.
Here’s some more interesting types and shadows of the Split Seventieth Week Mathieu……When you’re able to set some time aside, you absolutely must check out the link provided here below about the Red Heifer too.
Jer.34
18 And I will give the men that have transgressed my covenant, which have not performed the words of the covenant which they had made before me,……………………………………………………………. when they cut the http://gospel-herald.com/finneman/red_heifer.htm
calf in twain,…………………………………………………………….. and passed between the parts thereof,
19 The princes of Judah, and the princes of Jerusalem, the eunuchs, and the priests, and all the people of the land, which passed between the parts of the calf;
20 ………………………I will even give them into the hand of their enemies,………………………….. and into the hand of them that seek their life: and their dead bodies shall be for meat unto the fowls of the heaven, and to the beasts of the earth.
How can this represent Anything other than Christs Ministry and Confirmation of The Covenant Divided? When we Compare how the Red Heifer was USED in the Performances of the Law, and how Abraham asked, How shall i KNOW?
How shall You oh God, CONFIRM to me your PROMISE?
OH, OK, You want me to CUT a Heifer in TWO PARTS, And BY FAITH let not the Fowls (ENEMIES of This Confirmation) Interfere while it is DAY.
While i SLEEP (as though Sleeping in death) You shall Judge like a SMOKING POT and Be a LIGHT and LAMP to the Gentiles
BETWEEN the TWO PARTS that REPRESENT the CONFIRMATION of The Covenant That You PROMISE to Me This Day.
How else could “The princes of Judah, and the princes of Jerusalem, the eunuchs, and the priests, and…………………………… ALL the people……………………………… of the land”, Pass BETWEEN the PARTS?
……………………………….FOUR……..Gen 17: 7-19……….In the “MIDST”……………………….(FIRST MENTION)(Remember the Law of First Mention)(FIRST MENTION of “Establish/Confirm Everlasting Covenant)…….Between the First and Second GROUP OF THREE.
Yes Shorty, we shall continue to agree to disagree……
Just answer this: Doesn’t your theory concerning what you have presented that Christ has fulfilled the 1st half of the final week mean that His death at the Cross would be the AOD?
I just want to add this concerning the ENP……for those who don’t understand what I have been trying to convey.
This is a very “literal” Covenant with Many; once it was established and it was “confirmed” from it’s very existence. It doesn’t need to be “re-confirmed” each time it’s term runs out. The fact of the matter is that it is in place – and it should very well get the attention of all who study Bible Prophecy; in that it has not gone away. Each time it is renewed, doesn’t mean that it has to have a person who re-confirms it, because it is not a new covenant, but it needs the funding to allow it to fulfill it’s purpose. I believe that there is a difference – and it could be the reason why many are still not paying attention to it.
I’m not trying to convince anyone to believe what I am saying, just trying to bring what makes sense to me to the table – and I could be wrong. I do not believe that Christ fulfilled the 1st half of the final week – and I further believe that we still have a final 7 year time period in which we must deal with.
“Just answer this: Doesn’t your theory concerning what you have presented that Christ has fulfilled the 1st half of the final week mean that His death at the Cross would be the AOD?”
It’s not a Necessity to conclude that by the text, no………but……..it could have been be…..what might be understood as………….you might say………..AN….AOD……….just AS the spirit of the Loser has always been Against Christ.
It is not to be understood as The, One Final AOD that shall be Fulfilled By the Loser in the End of Days.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………
I don’t know if you ever saw this before but it needs a good look and understanding I think….
“Not again”! you may say………….we’ve been under that old barn hunt’n eggs forever and for the most part we all come out with the same ole eggs……….true but not in every case.
I want to focus on something completely different about it……only one portion of it mainly.
here is the best word for word i could find from Hebrew directly into English of the section for discussion.
and upon as wings (3671)abominations(8251)desolation/astonishment (8074) even until (5704) end (3617) and that decreed (2782) shall outpour (5413) on the desolator (8074)
It is quite well known that this is a very obscure portion of scripture and has been translated or rather I should say interpreted many different ways.
But why really in light of this passage?
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
Mathew 23
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that ………….killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee(abomination8251), how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her]…………….. wings………(as wings3671)……………, and ye ………..would not!…………(abomination8251)
38 Behold(astonishment8074), your house is…… left unto you (and that decreed2782)……..(even until5704)desolate.
39 For I say unto you,(decreed2782)……… Ye shall not see me henceforth, ………..till……….(even until5704) ye shall say, Blessed [is]………. he that cometh(shall outpour[5413] on the [8074]desolator) in the name of the Lord.
Now i know that who the “He” is makes or breaks what all believe about 9:27……but I just want to ask what justification there has been to add so many interpretive extra words into what was never part of the known Hebrew text……..
Other than of course to interpret rather than translate, which is what most of the modern Bible versions demonstrate.
Jesus decreed the desolation……they who killed the prophets are the desolators and abominators along with all unbelievers and their future head, the Loser antichrist.
Did the desolators gather under His wings or did they place abomination/astonishment upon His outstretched wings?
Did they place a blasphemous crown upon His head….did they place nails in his outstretched wings……was not the abominations of the entire world placed on Him?
Sure He allowed so willingly………….but………..it was still placed upon Him.
He was rejected and slain and abomination upon His wings…………..because they would not be gathered to Him.
And still they reject Him………..until their gathering………even until the END.
.
And Mr Baldy, about the ENP and this next 7 year thing your speaking of……I think I could very well be Another Layer to the Prophecy…….but it’s only a decoy imo, not the Primary Fulfillment of Dan 9:27, only a decoy to ensure the vision is sealed until the Loser is cast out and the Seventh seal opens………….along with our understanding.
Again, I have viewed your theory concerning Christ’s Ministry has fulfilled the first half of the final week – and you have even admitted that Christ death on the cross is an “AOD” in your previous post. Again…I very much beg to differ – and it’s certainly very, very sad that the very Death of our Lord & Savior, and the blood that He shed can even be viewed in such a way as to make some sort of theory work. I’m sorry if I sound hard, but I’m just pointing out what I have in my heart.
And to say that another AOD is yet future, as it relates to the Lord’s death on the cross (in your theory) – will be fulfilled by the “Loser” as you call him, puts even more holes in the 3.5 year theory. The Lord’s death on the cross, should never be compared to a future AOD, or ANY AOD at all! This is no matter what He suffered – as it was His decision to take upon the death in which He was to ensue. He even rebuked Peter concerning His death.
Nevertheless, you can’t have it both ways. The 1st AOD that Scripture mentions is Antiochus Epiphanes, and what he did, as compared to what the coming Antichrist will do in the near future. This absolutely cannot be in any way, shape, or form, be compared to the death of Christ.
Jesus mentioned that : “when you see” the AOD “STANDING” in the “holy place”, further referencing this to what the Prophet Daniel “SPOKE” – and this requires “understanding”. Some want to equate this to the coming Antichrist “sitting” in a 3RD Temple – but I’m not so sure about this particular theory as well.
In closing, and I will mention this yet again….. I believe that there is a Final 7 year time period that remains. The ENP still appears to be a solid Covenant with Many that need to be seriously looked at.
” it’s certainly very, very sad that the very Death of our Lord & Savior, and the blood that He shed can even be viewed in such a way as to make some sort of theory work. ”
I’m not saying it to make a theory work…..as i said….it’s not necessary to read the text that way at all for shorttrib to be proven correct.
The AOD does not require a Direct reference to Dan 9:27 at all.
But would you not agree that the killing of God could be considered an abomination or astonishment?
The abominations of the entire world was placed on Him…….He Became an Abomination…..He Became SIN for US.
He BECAME so Abominable Through OUR SIN Being Placed on Him that he Became Separated from His Father………………That’s Astonishing to me…..you may see it differently.
That’s ok, as I said, if OUR SIN Placed ON Him was not at least An Abomination For those Responsible for it (That is YOU and ME, and the World), then i’ll let God show me otherwise.
But I do understand your uneasiness in thinking of His Glorious Death for us in that manner.
“The 1st AOD that Scripture mentions is Antiochus Epiphanes, and what he did, as compared to what the coming Antichrist will do in the near future. This absolutely cannot be in any way, shape, or form, be compared to the death of Christ. ”
Yes it can be compared……..I myself, the entire world and you, were AS the PIG slain on the Alter of God Almighty……………….I know that’s a horrible thought, but true.
“Yes it can be compared……..I myself, the entire world and you, were AS the PIG slain on the Alter of God Almighty……………….I know that’s a horrible thought, but true.”
“Thank you Lord for Becoming Sin For US.”
Shorty, I believe that you’re missing something here. While I can respect your opinion, I think that the comparison is completely and utterly detestable. Please allow me to state how your view “may” be interpreted:
In your analogy you are saying that we were “AS” the “PIG” slain on the Alter of God Almighty, and in essence because our Lord became sin for us in His death, He was equal to this detestable act of slaying a PIG by evil men who were mocking the way the sacrificial requirements were to be made.
Well Shorty, while I believe what you are trying to convey is not with any malice or evil intent, I must say that again, I find this comparison deplorable. I say this because it is the BLOOD that was shed by our Lord and Savior that became the propitiation for our sins – and by His stripes we are all heeled. Without the shedding of BLOOD there is no remission for sin. The blood of animals could never do what our Lord and Savior came to do. Comparing the deplorable act of slaying an unclean animal on a Holy and Sacred place of worship in an effort to mock a sacrifice – with The Pure, Clean; having no sin Savior, who died voluntarily for the sins of the World, in that the will of God be done……well, need I say anymore?
“and in essence because our Lord became sin for us in His death, He was equal to this detestable act of slaying a PIG by evil men who were mocking the way the sacrificial requirements were to be made.”
No, Mr. Baldy, that’s not it………….We, as the Unclean Pig, placed on The Sinless Lamb…..WE are the Abominable thing, Placed on Our Holy Sinless Glorious Savior and God…….Our Sin was the Abominable Thing.
It is a profoundly Hard thing to take in……..but it is just the truth.
I’m very confused by the foregoing discussion, and am not wanting to argue–just ponder. I was hoping maybe one of the commenters here might shed some light on a couple of questions I’ve always had.
1. If the Tribulation is 7 years, how come it is always referred to as 3.5 years in every place in the Bible except for Daniel? As far as I can tell, Daniel is the only scripture that mentions some kind of 7 year time frame for a tribulation, and I think that’s unusual–mainly because prophecies about important events (and I’d say the trib qualifies as important) are always addressed in many, many locations from various angles. But not the 7 years. It’s mentioned in one place, but all other places are 3.5. For example, in every place in Revelation, it’s 3.5, and even in Daniel 12, it’s 3.5 years post abomination.
2. Regarding the scripture “let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.” Am I wrong, or is Judea primarily under Palestinian control and populated mostly with Palestinians right now? If the abomination were upon us, what that tells me is that the Palestinians better run, because the Jews and their allies are about to attack them in a huge way. In order for that to happen, I suppose they’d have to do something to the Jerusalem temple mount. In any case, this scripture seems to me (if it were interpreted as happening at this point in time) to be about Jews attacking Palestinians, instead of the other way around.
That said, I am aware of one scholar who wrote a book on the Psalm 83 war, and he seems fairly certain that Judea will be back under Israeli control by the time the abomination happens. If that is so, there would have to be a huge middle east war with a crushing defeat by Israel first. Then of course there would eventually be a large international backlash.
Howdy Diane,
you’ve asked……
“Regarding the scripture “let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.” Am I wrong, or is Judea primarily under Palestinian control and populated mostly with Palestinians right now? If the abomination were upon us, what that tells me is that the Palestinians better run, because the Jews and their allies are about to attack them in a huge way.”
Seems that ancient Judea would include the entire Mountainous part of Southern Israel is what Jesus referenced, not just a thin sliver of the Gaza strip. Geography has never really been one of my stronger subjects……..so i’m just adding my two cents on it.
and you’ve asked….
” If the Tribulation is 7 years, how come it is always referred to as 3.5 years in every place in the Bible except for Daniel? As far as I can tell, Daniel is the only scripture that mentions some kind of 7 year time frame for a tribulation, and I think that’s unusual–mainly because prophecies about important events (and I’d say the trib qualifies as important) are always addressed in many, many locations from various angles. But not the 7 years. It’s mentioned in one place”
Actually Diane, it’s not mentioned there in Daniel either. It is Assumed by the Modern Masses of Christians to be Referring To a Seven year trib…..but that’s, as I said, only an errant Assumption imo.
There are many reasons why folks assume that…….and the Reasons are valid to a degree, but I feel the Reasons and evidence is much stronger against that idea.
Here’s another interesting link to Understand the Literary Structure of Dan 9:25-27
I may just be slow, but I don’t see the chiastic structure of that part of Daniel 9.
I think that some of Daniel 9 refers to Christ, but honestly have a very hard time not seeing the subject of the later parts of the passage as the prince of the people to come (the AC).
A couple questions I have though –
It seems everyone assumes the 2nd coming of Christ is said to take place the end of the “70th week” – for the life of me I can’t see where that’s spelled out.
My second question-
what if the 70th week, marked by the covenant with many is just a way of marking off a period for Israel – a period where they are at first waiting for he Messiah, and then a second period where their hearts are hardened against him? So then the end of the 70th week would not be the second coming but the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10?
What I’m suggesting –
Isn’t it possible that he 70th week does not include any of the tribulation (time of Jacob’s trouble) or God’s wrath? If it were so then the covenant could come immediately before those things and the turning of Israel to the Lord would come early in the progression towards the return of our Lord. It would also keep with the ministry of both the two witnesses an the 144000 – as being God’s final two prophets, and his 144000 evangelists out of the virgin men of Israel.
If that were he case – couldn’t Baldy still be right – the current ENP fulfills the prophecy for the covenant with many and the stopping of the daily just needs to happen sometime between now and December (which from multiple other readings I’ve done doesn’t require a temple since it’s not very specific about what daily it is).
“No, Mr. Baldy, that’s not it………….We, as the Unclean Pig, placed on The Sinless Lamb…..WE are the Abominable thing, Placed on Our Holy Sinless Glorious Savior and God…….Our Sin was the Abominable Thing.”
Shorty, I have understood exactly what you are trying to convey – I just happen to disagree with how you have put it forth – in that it can cause some very unreasonable understanding when trying to explain your theory.
“WE” are NOT the “Abominable thing” – but our SIN is – so let’s not mix words, as you have done in an attempt to tie it in with your theory. Nor has the continuous sin that we commit caused desolation. Absolutely NONE of us can stop sinning, and this is why Christ died for us, and took on the sin we cannot undo for ourselves. God so loved the World, and gave His Son for us, because He loves us, not our sin. The act in which Antiochus Epiphanes committed was an abomination, that certainly caused desolation. There is no comparison.
The effort in which you are trying to put forth in that you believe is commendable, but your theory lacks a sound basis, and has very serious flaws. At the end of the day, you are still saying that the death in which Jesus did voluntarily; lowering Himself in submission to the will of God the Father; is comparable to that of the mockery in which a filthy pig was slain to represent a sacrificial offering. Again, let’s not mix words as to confuse those who are trying to understand.
There will be a future AOD – of that we can be sure of. When asked by His disciples Christ mentioned the AOD as something that will be seen; in that it (whatever it is) will be “seen standing in the Holy Place”; it would be future, and required “understanding”. This in my very humble opinion absolutely cannot be compared to the sacrificial; volunteered; and by the WILL of God death on the cross by our Lord and Savior. Again, Christ further mentioned this as a “future” act as it related to His Return, in contrast to His death on the Cross. So that is something else for you to consider.
In closing, there is nothing that Scripture doesn’t provide as far as understanding that there is yet a future 7 year period that remains. The Covenant with Many that the coming Antichrist “confirms” somehow works in connection with the 3.5 year reign that he will accomplish – and it will be as Scripture mentions; a 3.5 year reign, his reign will not be cut “short”.
Well, as I said before, I understand you rejection of the things I’ve mentioned…..I’ve also acknowledged that common system you own is reasonable to a degree.
When I said “We” I did clarify that I was referring to “Our Sin” in other words of OUR Carnal Man/Carnal Nature.
There is also, as I said before, no reason to suggest that this idea about a Shadow or Another Type of AOD (Our Sin Placed ON our Just and Holy Savior) , establishes or de-establishes Shorttrib………..it does not.
We will all find out eventually……..but IF things occur as I’ve mentioned……you’ll then know to expect a much shorter Trib…..and that’s a good thing.
I want to say this from the heart: Even though we may disagree – absolutely none of us have it 100% correct. I commend your efforts, and you willingness to stand up to the scrutiny that most want to say, but don’t have the heart, or understanding to say. And this is not to point a finger at anyone – but it is an effort to bring forth TRUTH, and/or the understanding thereof.
The very words that I type on this, and other forums should be challenged. I want someone to tell me when I’m wrong – or can provide evidence based on Scripture that what I am trying to convey may be wrong. I wholeheartedly welcome it, as I am very often times wrong. I just want the truth to be brought forth – and all so that it edifies the Body of Christ, and brings Glory to His Name!
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. 1 Corinthians 13:12
Agreed – we all speculate, and we do our best to try to interpret scripture with scripture, but the weakest link is between the eyes that read scripture and the fingers on keyboards that relay our best attempt (even as diligent and carefully researched as they are) that are yet incomplete.
We know there is prophecy fulfilled, so much about the coming of the Lord, so much that he said about the destruction of the temple and the scattering of Israel throughout the world, and so much about the regathering of a remnant to the land – we simply hope and wait knowing the rest will come to pass, even if we can only guess at how. I trust that the Holy Spirit will reveal that which we need to know when he determines we need to know it. I think among those here who have over the years shown themselves to love the Lord and seek to know him through his word that our disagreements will cease as the truth is made plain to us by the same spirit that caused it to be written so many centuries ago.
….or like Shelby says,”blessins”. I don’t know if i’ve ever heard anyone say anythin’ that sweet in all my life,…..kinda like when Andrea says, “nuff said”. Oh my Goodness, i looove southern
…or when tribber starts in ta talkin’ bout all them chickens underneath that ole’ barn,…now thats funny as heck! rock on Rick ole’ boy! one a these here days we’re gonna take n cetch all a them birds!
keep on rockin’ in the free world,..hey btw did you all hear that black man [representative ] from Virginia in his campaign for office speak out about freedom and guvmint keepin’ out of all our business! this ole boy can say it! i will go git the link to his awesome speech and be right back
If I may say so, modern day Judea is in an area, more commonly known today as the West Bank. It is currently under Israeli control and was area captured during the six day war in 1967. Hope this helps.
Thanks all for the replies. Shorttribber, I’m inclined to agree with you about the 7 years in Daniel 7. The chiastic structure is interesting and is not something I’d come across before. I was very interested to read about it. Even supposing there IS a 7 year tribulation, scripture seems pretty clear that the “great” portion of it starts when the beast stops the “daily” (whatever that is), and then begins a 3.5 year reign until the end. I guess we won’t really know until we know. Interestingly, this also coincides with the time in which the beast throws the harlot off its back, which seems to be a metaphor for the destruction of Mystery Babylon. Prior to that, Mystery Babylon literally has the beast under her control, therefore she must be a world power immediately prior to the time the beast comes to power. That opens up all kinds of interesting speculations.
Shorttribber and Curt–yes, I had always thought Judea was mostly located in the West Bank. Although they did capture that area in 1967, it is under a dual government structure, and the rest of the world doesn’t officially recognize that part of Israel as Israel (hence all the arguments over settlement building). Yes, there are Jewish settlements there, but it is populated primarily by Palestinians, and the Palestinians do exercise their own governmental powers there. (So maybe the scripture is warning the people in Jewish settlements in the West Bank to run for the mountains.) And of course this week in the news, we now we have the EU’s decision to cut off Israeli support in that area, and a peace negotiation underway with the goal of removing all Israeli influence from the area permanently. It will be interesting to see what develops.
Amen Curt, and this is WHY we’re all sitting on the edge of our seats. Especially noting the
Luk 21:20 abomination that makes desolate 😦
— And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
It’s the Jews that flee and that seems to be our ” heads up ” for entering into the 42 month trib , or will that accompany Satan’s final casting out as well ?
This is to Diane,..i thought mystery babylon gets destroyed at the pretty near end. ? i read it in revelation, i thought it was plain as day,…although i can’t say, at this moment exactly where in so far as chapter/verses,…..i’ll go back n look again. i keep thinking romes vatican is mystery babylon and that America is Babylon the Great., or perhaps the EU as revived Rome being Babylon the Great. Its wierd how the pope wears a keepa, [ one of them little round jewish caps ] on his head. Doc Marquis and folks like John Muncey all have done well documented research to show the Nimrod….connect to ….Vatican Rome, thru the passing along of the mystery religions winding along like a serpent thru time to eventually settle in wearing a c-h-r-i-s-t-i-a-n veneer.
@Tony–well, I cannot say for sure, but I get the impression that Babylon falls twice in Revelation, so it’s interesting that you mentioned two different Babylons. She falls off the beast when he throws her off his back, and then there is a fall near the end as well. I am wondering if this could be a dual prophecy, and if so, perhaps that’s why the scripture always reads, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great.” Why two “fallens?” Does it fall twice? Interesting to speculate on.
Another thing I thought was interesting is that on my last read through Revelation, I noticed that the number 666 did not appear to be tied to the Antichrist beast. Instead it appeared to be the number of the false prophet beast. I was amazed how many years I’d had that wrong.
Hi Diane, do you mean its the false prophet who causes all to receive a mark to do commerce,…i thought that was the AC, you know, the Beast? Ah but you did say, false prophet beast. i am currently confused,…back to the ole drawing board. / As for rev 17 and rev chapt. 18, one appears to be spiritual and the other commercial components of BABYLON. ..?….
This one last observation and comparison should be addressed ok?
In light of this following statement of Mr. Baldy…….
“There will be a future AOD – of that we can be sure of. When asked by His disciples Christ mentioned the AOD as something that will be seen; in that it (whatever it is) will be “seen standing in the Holy Place”; it would be future, and required “understanding”.”
Now, keeping in mind that Jesus mentioned Absolutely Nothing about any Future Third Temple…………EVER……..Not Ever, in his ministry, and Not EVER in ANY PORTION of the Olivet Discourse.
Between the two following texts, which one PLAINLY Describes what Jesus said “when ye shall See the AOD STAND in the Holy Place”.
Dan 9
27 …………………(first portion of the text removed to eliminate preconceived ides about ANY timeframe association or person)……………………. and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Dan 12
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the Abomination that maketh Desolate SET UP, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
It’s always argued that these two texts refer to the Same Thing……but it is Not So.
The 12:11 ref is to the “Daily” Only….the word “Sacrifice” was added by the translators and was never part of the Original Hebrew Text.
The 9:27 ref of “Sacrifice and Oblation” is referring to the ATTONEMENT Sacrifice….and the WORD Sacrifice WAS in the Original Hebrew Text.
You may SPECULATE that the Wording is So Similar that they MUST be referring to the SAME Thing….but….you Only make an Errant Assumption based on (ONE)Preconceived Notions, and (TWO) the ACTUAL Original Words are VERY Different.
So then…..why would make these verses so Similar? To Confuse Us?
No my Beloved brothers and sisters……….Here’s WHY….”for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.”
Would you ALL forever Remember the following Very Important Observation and Point.
Look how close in Proximity the Sealing Up is Mentioned ALONG WITH the Words, “the Wise shall UNDERSTAND”, (as in, let him that Reads Understand)…………Can You SEE and Understand…..that the Similarity in Words between 9:27 and 12:11 Was INTENDED by God…………………..TO SEAL UP the Vision TILL…………the END……Until THAT TIME…the LAST 3.5 Begins.
Here again are these Verses together in closing…..as I said…..note how closely these three verses Work Together to Seal Up the vision.
Dan 12
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dave Hunt’s book [ bless his soul ] “The woman who rides the beast”, points to the Catholic Church,ie Vatican City[ i repeat,…CITY ] as Mystery Harlot Babylon soooo well. Its a big thick book, but an easy,INTERESTING, read. However i think its in Zacheriah where they mention The Land of Shinar in connection with Mystery Babylon and the prophecy of a basket with something in it- geeze i wish i could tell you the details off the top of my head- but i need to refresh my memory on it- but it is incredibly fascinating to delve into and wonder what it means. the land of Shinar, the basket, and i believe theres mention of a metallic disk……….., does anyone know , better than i, what i’m struggling to refer to ? help!!!
sounds like your shedding new light here Tribber , pointing out the differences btwn the original and what words were added later on to…..mislead us. Something to consider and rethink about…..
@ Tony, well, I was bored one day, so I outlined Revelation and made a chart of all the beasts that are mentioned. There is the beast from the abyss that kills the two witnesses, the beast from the sea, the beast from the sea, the beast from the earth, and the scarlet beast with the woman sitting on it. Okay, so what do we know about all these beasts?
The beast from the sea:
-stood on the sand of the seashore
-has ten horns with ten diadems
-7 heads with blasphemous names
-resembles a leopard, a bear, and a lion
-derives authority from the dragon
-1 head is slain but is healed
-mouth speaks blasphemies
-has authority for 42 months
-will overcome the saints and every tribe and nation.
Okay, so the beast from the sea is clearly the antichrist.
Now there is the beast from the earth:
-has two horns like a lamb but speaks like a dragon (appears harmless, but isn’t really)
-exercises the authority of the sea beast
– makes people worship the sea beast (so clearly the false prophet)
-does miracles like calling down fire from heaven
-deceives by signs
-gives breath to the image of the sea beast
-distributes the mark of the beast
Okay, so this is all in the paragraph about the earth beast in Rev. 13:
11Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon.12He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.13He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.14And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.15And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.16And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,17and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.18Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.
Therefore, the false prophet is the one distributing the mark. This whole paragraph is about the beast from the earth, so I conclude that 666 is the number of the Earth beast, who is clearly the false prophet, although I understand there are reasons for other interpretations. However, in this paragraph, the author uses “first beast” to make it clear that he’s talking about the sea beast/antichrist, not the earth beast. In verse 18, he does not say “calculate the number of the FIRST beast.” Rather, he just says “beast,” which leads me to believe he’s continuing discussion about the beast in the current section, which is actually the false prophet.
Meanwhile, let’s look at the Scarlet beast. The woman, who is the great city, which rules the kings of the earth, sits on it. The beast she’s sitting on has 7 heads and 10 horns. (Sounds like the Sea beast, right? And we know the sea beast is the antichrist.) The scarlet beast hates the woman and wants to make her naked and desolate and burn her with fire. The scarlet beast eventually throws the woman off its back and comes into full power and rejoices.
Revelation 17:16: And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”
Okay, so here we have the image of a world power (the great city that reigns over the kings of the earth) that is keeping the beast under control until it burns her with fire and eats her flesh. Then the ten horns on the beast are free to give the beast their power so the beast can rule.
So, given all this information, my hypothesis is that the scarlet beast is the spirit of the antichrist which cannot come into power until the harlot is overthrown. Once the harlot is overthrown, the scarlet beast becomes known as the beast from the sea (it has the same 7 heads and ten horns). It is supported by the beast from the earth, who is the false prophet who distributes the mark. Finally, the beast from the abyss, I believe, is satan himself, who we know indwells the sea beast/antichrist at some point and is responsible for killing the two witnesses.
Thus, there are four different beasts mentioned, but three of them are various forms of the antichrist and one of them is the false prophet.
That’s my working hypothesis.
This is just me speculating. But that’s how I understand it.
i hope i’m gonna be turned into one of “the wise” who will be, in the know, understanding whats going on, and i trust that i shall be, and that we ALL shall be, as truth descends upon us and ascends within us! Thanks for sharing again , your wise counsel
Wow, Diane, you got to all that while you were bored! Good job,…now let me go over all that again! your nice and precise, and it makes me want to call him false profit, the dude with the money mark with his evil money mark plan. AMAZING, how could i have missed that?! and most others i know, have overlooked that ?! Thanks for sharin’
I wanted to share some ideas that have been discussed here over the past few years that might add some things to think about with your post above. No one here is claiming to have an exclusive corner on interpreting prophecy, but some things to consider based on our reading scripture as carefully as we can.
The first beast – the beast from the sea in Revelation. It is possibly not a man at all but a kingdom, the final kingdom of man. For comparison between the Beast from the Sea and another beast – see Daniel 7:23 – 24
The second beast – the beast from the earth, possibly the antichrist, the man of sin of Daniel AND also the “false prophet” that’s become so popular in end-times literature. And yes – I agree the number of the beast refers to antichrist/man of sin – and makes far more sin if the AC/false prophet are one and the same person aka the little horn.
The red beast- now makes a lot more sense in light of the 10 kings of Daniel and if the woman is riding on it right?
Something to think about – the second beast causes the world to worship the image of the first beast- to worship the government. It is possible that the antichrists deception is to cause the world to worship the kingdom he has set up, as if a human government could save them from whatever the dangers of the day are – war, starvation, poverty, crime whatever. He does his best to have the people put their hope of salvation into a man made thing (refer back to the tower of Babel for a far earlier example of this.
I have an idea about who Babylon is and who the whore of Babylon is. There are certainly two falls in the text the falling of Babylon the great and the rape of the whore of Babylon by the kings of the earth. First, Babylon the great- what was Babylon in history – the first great human made kingdom (starting in Genesis 10 with Nimrod son of Cush), the first wealthy financial and military power on the earth. The final fall of Babylon the great represents the collapse of the world financial system (the Babylon system, look at your money and the symbols used in banks and banking if you don’t think it’s Babylon). This also makes sense that the merchants would mourn. This also makes sense as to why there would be a Mark of the beast in order to trade – since a new beast centered economic system will rise up in the last days to replace the one destroyed, that will be totally under the control of the Antichrist.
Now the Second Babylon, the whore- it is all human created religion (all false religion). Kings and emperors throughout history have sought to control religion and used it to exploit and ensure the obedience of the masses. We can see that man-made religion started as far back as Babylon the first kingdom because we can see throughout the old testament the many people groups that came out of Genesis 11 and also mentioned in the next few chapters are idolatrous peoples who worshipped a variety of false Gods. Look at any man-made religion, the Catholic church, Islam, Hinduism, Mormonism, Talmudic Judaism – all of them seek one thing to control behavior and are frequently aligned with kings and kingdoms to provide legitimacy and consolidation of power and succession of power. The first man-made religion if you examine your Bible – came about in Babylon. The global powers today are working very hard to get these many religious systems to work together. We can see the tension between these false religions and the world governments most clearly today in Islam – where governments seek to partner with Islam while it seeks to dominate them and terrorize their people around the world. Other man-created religions are doing this/have done this but its not always as clear to point to (the many evils committed by the Catholic church are one example in history that is known to many here). My belief is that the antichrist will come to power in collaboration with these many false religions that at some point the relationship between the antichrist and his kingdom will break down – and the one that fornicated with the world will be destroyed as “all religions” are declared an intolerable evil that must be eradicated. This “all religions are evil” declaration will also give free reign to the final kingdom of men to make war on the saints as we know will happen from Rev 13:7 under the leadership of the second beast, the AC.
i don’t see how that could be too far wrong as it makes sound sense in a general way and i think also in a specific way,…….could it be a final “worship mother-earth” RELIGION, that ultimately surfaces? Nice formulation Rob,..WOW
…you know, a secular and a PRACTICAL religion, that is worthy of our alliegence – so that we can continue as a viable species. As in obey govt. rules and regulations,…Agenda 21 , reduce carbon footprint, be willing to make sacrafices[ie.,..give up rights to private property, etc] in the name of our physical survival we must adhere to WORLD GOVERNANCE, worshiping the Gaia Mother Earth like days of old/ mystery pagan/druid religion of old,..as there is nuthin’ new under the sun………….all the old things are returning, but Jesus will make ALL THINGS NEW!
admittedly i have to go back and slowly re-read all you have put forth Rob and also what you put forth Diane and Rick[tribber] and Vic and Baldy and Colleen, Shelby, Andrea……..man you people are what i was lookin’ for,……..and in my minds eye i can see sammy runnin’,…so eager and plumb full of enthusiasmos………….! Keep on keepin’ on brothers n sisters,….sam is still so ALIVE in my heart and in my memories and in my thoughts. As Alive and as real and as exciting as the love of God,…and the Promise of His Return, knowin’ that He’s-a-comin’- for us, to fully restore all that has been lost! There is no waste with God our Loving Father and in our deepest wounds – loves beauty finds a place to take root and grow. Blessen’s,……..now thats how Shelby says it!
Right Tony, a worship of self and of human accomplishment with the AC being the model of the “Super Man” or über mensch as the German philosophers called him is a likely “religion” pushed under the AC system. It is already evident in atheist and humanist philosophies. It sees practical expression in leadership with the rise of the so-called “technocrat”.
interesting,…as in man doesn’t need god because we are our own god.,…evolving,…becoming,…and Rob when you mentioned the rise of “technocrat”, well hey, God help us. I mean are you talking about transhumanism?. i’m gonna google technocrat
oh, its these technocrats that will push earth worship as we listen to their expertise and fall prey to their control by believing their lies. Al Gore and them, for example., and we could list name many others. I see we are not talking transhumanism, yet!
@Justasheep, oh yes, I definitely agree with you that the beasts are governmental and/or spiritual systems. Scripture makes plain that the horns are the rulers of the kingdoms that make up the beasts in their various incarnations. I suppose I am guilty of falling back on a shorthand way of referring to these organizational entities by their human ruling counterparts. The system and the leader are somewhat synonymous in my mind. I have not fully decided what real life entities correspond to which beast entities, and am doing further research. I do have more thoughts on the subject for later, but I’m about to be without Internet access for a week, so may not have the opportunity to post more.
Shoertribber, I understand what you are saying about “the daily.” There is some very interesting teaching by Rami Danieli floating around on the subject. Also some interesting teaching over at 119ministries, although I disagree with many of the teachings they have posted over there.
Finally, transhumanism is definitely a movement to watch. I am writing a novel around this theme at the moment. You cannot believe the tech that exists right now in the world, particularly in bio nanotech.
Anywa, sorry for typos–I’m mobile. Have a good night all!
just looking at the alex jones channel on youtube video as he is interviewing Katherine Albrite on the subject of the technocratic architechture of the NWO. This is for real and the further you get into the interview the more you get the picture. I’m glad you brought that word “technocrat” up Rob/sheep. Its going to get very bizzare as man with his technological wizardy continues to defy Our Father. / hurry back Diane
I haven’t had the time to read { most } of the posts and look forward to doing that as time permits but was hoping to ask a quick question before you leave 😉
Hi Hisown1–I am not sure. I think that when the beast government rises to power, the world will be recovering from a time of chaos and re-organizing government structures on a global scale. (In my opinion, which is all speculation, this will arise out of the overthrow of the harlot). I hypothesize that the mark will be one of allegiance to a new order that also enables people to engage in electronic commerce in a cashless system.
1. It’s obviously a sign of allegiance, because you get killed if you don’t take it.
2. It’s obviously part of a cashless system because it’s impossible to buy or sell without it (which means cash, by definition, can no longer exist).
I don’t believe student RFID cards like they are using in schools right now are the mark (as in the case of Andrea Hernandez). I don’t believe RFID chips or hologram tattoos in their current form are the mark. I don’t think you can take the mark until the time of the beast or take it without declaring allegiance to the beast system (which will exist in a cashless society) and that time is not here yet (although the technology for it clearly exists).
Whatever this mark is, it will be something unique to this new beast system. It wouldn’t be something that already exists because such a thing would not indicate allegiance to the new system. Therefore, it won’t be an RFID chip or hologram tattoo in any of their current forms.
With all that said, I don’t think anybody needs to freak out about accidentally taking the mark of the beast right now, because the mark is part of a system that clearly does not yet exist. The sea beast / antichrist system is not yet fully in power, so at the moment, there is no such thing as the mark of the beast. If you want to get an RFID chip or a holographic tattoo right now, I think that’s a bad choice, but you’re not going to lose your soul doing it, and nobody’s going to kill you if you choose not to get one.
Apologies to Curt- a couple of his posts about Israel, the EU and the status of the western wall got caught in the spam filter. I am not sure how – but I restored them to this thread.
UNSEALED PROPHECY 
Really? You want to go this way? Be petty. Fine. This is quite typical of Christians today. You do not understand the Bible and you use scripture out of context.
Galatians 5:4 has nothing to do with being obedient but everything to do with following the law for salvation. If you read on to verse 6 Paul clearly is showing how it is faith here that he is arguing. Salvation comes only by trusting in Jesus. No disagreements here.
Galatians 2:16 – same thing as above. This is about obtaining salvation and having faith. Not being obedient.
Galatians 2:21 – again same thing as above.
Galatians 3:10-11 ditto
Galatians 5:14 – not sure what the point is here regarding the Sabbath. Jesus even said that you could sum up the commandments into two……this does not prove anything.
What does scripture say about the the Sabbath and the Commandments, which commandments? Aren’t there only one set of Commandments?
Jesus came here as an example for us correct? Luke 4:16 – …as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
For those who believe obeying the commandments are legalistic you may have a problem with Jesus’ next statement. Jesus said he kept his Father’s commandments and we need to as well. John 15:10 – if ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. I could stop right here, but there is so much more.
All throughout the 4 Gospels the Pharisees try and show how Jesus and the disciples violated the Sabbath. Jesus refuted them by showing how they still honored the sabbath. Not going to provide all the scripture on this since there is so much.
Paul regularly spoke on the Sabbath in the synagogues. Acts 17:2 – And Paul, as his manner was, went I unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures. Acts 18:4 – and he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the GREEKS. (emphasis mine). Paul, on the sabbath met in the synagogue with Greeks. If Paul expected Christians to follow the now popular “Lord’s Day” then why does he speak to them on the sabbath. Why do none of the disciples tell us to meet on Sunday? In fact the early church continued to meet on the sabbath. No where in the Bible did the disciples show they abandoned meeting in the synagogue on the sabbath. The Greeks requested for the next sabbath that Paul and others contribute there words. Acts 13:42 – and when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles be sought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. If Sunday was the new day to worship then why would they ask them to come back the next sabbath? Here was a good time for Paul to state we do not have to wait until the next sabbath we can meet tomorrow. He does not and in verse 44 it states “and the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God”.
Hebrews 4:1-11 take a quick read of these verses. Here, whomever the author is, is speaking about the true sabbath. These verses are very clear that we are to enter this day of rest on a “certain day”.
We are also told when Jesus returns that we will still be following the Sabbath. Isaiah 66:22-33.
Since most of us that come to this site are looking for Jesus’ return, what about Matthew 24:20 where Jesus tells us to pray that our flight OT being during the winter or on the sabbath. If keeping the sabbath was not important why would Jesus say this.
Or how about Rev 12:17 – and the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Who was the dragon going after? Those who kept the commandments.
Rev 14:12 – here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 – Blesses are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life….
You can keep man’s traditions or follow God’s words. We are told over and over again to follow his commandments. This is not legalistic but being obedient. This is not to obtain salvation!!!
There are only one set of commandments and keeping the Sabbath is one of them. This is not a Hebrews Roots Movement. This is a follow the scripture not man’s traditions movement.
I am not in any Hebrews Roots Movement.
LikeLike
I understand the point of this post. I grew up Protestant, but recently decided to start attending a Messianic Jewish church with my husband. After Saturday service, they asked us to stay, but we said we had to go because we had promised to help our brother move. They were all appalled and said, “ON THE SABBATH?” One girl went off about the importance of observing the Sabbath in such and such a way, don’t do this work, don’t do that work, etc. But Galatians 5:4 says we don’t have to burden ourselves with Sabbath rules. Sure, we can choose to honor God by honoring the Sabbath. But when we start judging other people and thinking that we are somehow more justified than other believers just because we choose to keep the Sabbath in a certain way, that negates the work Jesus did on the cross. In other words, keeping the Sabbath or not keeping the Sabbath is not the issue–it’s the intent and attitude behind why a person is keeping it. If a person keeps the Sabbath in order to be justified through his own actions, that is rejecting Christ and attempting justification by law. If instead a person freely accepts grace but keeps the Sabbath as a thank offering for the work that Christ did on the Cross, that is different. God knows our hearts, and in the end, it’s your heart that will matter, not what you did or didn’t do on the Sabbath.
LikeLike
Nicely done, Agie! I think it’s interesting that once again, the poster of the poster (ha!) is assuming that we who love Shabbat and honor it as a gift of God, as we see all of God’s righteous instructions, assume that we do so to gain merit for salvation. I’ve been told I’m judging. I seek to defend my beliefs by the Word of God, the Word made flesh who dwelt among us and came to reveal his Father in a greater measure. That’s what our LORD meant when He said He came to ‘fulfill’ the law and the prophets, not abolish them. He meant that He would teach them properly. If you will stop and think, read and reflect, on His words as recorded in Matt 5:17-20 and then read the writings of Paul, (Rabbi Sha’ul), with the understanding that he never stopped observing the Torah, nor did he teach that it wasn’t important anymore, you may come to realize that he never did contradict either the Torah or his Messiah. Paul warns us against boasting against the root, the Olive Tree. We, as Christians, have done exactly that. We’ve gone off and planted our own tree.The Jews have missed their Messiah. We’ve missed their Torah which has become our Torah is we are grafted in. Read your New Testament again using Jesus words as the foundational truth. There is no contradiction between Old and New. BTW, Jesus was a Sabbath Keeper. Paul was a Sabbath Keeper. All the apostles were Sabbath Keepers. The 3,000 that were baptized on the Day of Pentecost, were Sabbath Keepers. Lastly, may I refer you to Isaiah 56:1-8 and 58:13, 14. Shabbat Shalom.
LikeLike
After viewing the topic that Vic Wickus has posted, one would have to admit that it is extremely hilarious!
LikeLike
Diane, if you are a truly believer in Christ you will want to follow his commandments….all of them. Satan’s plan is to get each Christian to start thinking certain things do not have to be followed. Basically what do you think changing the laws is all about? Do you think it is man’s laws? Goodness no! It is about changing His laws or commandments.
LikeLike
please read all of romans ch 14. read prayerfully-carefully-and be free…………..free yourself and you will let your brother in Christ be free as well. the letter kills and the Spirit makes alive. nuff said.
LikeLike
Amen and Amen Andre’!
LikeLike
I agree with John Muncy on this. I have seen people go on and on about how Jesus was never called Jesus because there is no J in the Hebrew, Greek,etc.. Jesus was right.. they swallow a camel and gag at a gnat.
LikeLike
Oh my oh my, how many times have I had to go over and through this with so many over the years of my Christian life. People from Armstrong’s group who had to keep all the feasts each year and travel somewhere, so that the men could not even hold down jobs to make a living to support the family. Thank God I never fell for this one as anyone can see what the outcome of that cult was.
Seventh Day Adventists then come along out of a movement of a prediction of a rapture timing, which most of them do not even know their own history on that one.
The mark of the beast is the Sunday day worship according to them.
Are we saying the name of Jesus right with the J or should we all try to say it with the proper Y, give me a break, do you think God does not know our hearts and who we pray to. So much of this, yes I have for sure met so many who get tied up on all of this and I pray for them and tell them to seek their answers from the holy scriptures and pray for them. Which is what we all have to do.
Perhaps if we lived in a country filled with presecution or were locked away in concentration camps like so many true believers in the days of Hitler, Stalin, and oh so many more this might become easier.
Jesus himself is the rest we enter into, depicted by the sabbath day of rest God gave to man. Hebrews explains all of this so perfectly. I will not try to repeat it.
Should we worship on Friday sunset to Saturday sunset the Hebrew sabbath day? There were other sabbath days as well throughout the feast days. So it was not only the Saturday sabbath or the Sunday sabbath.
Oh well you have to be in church every Sunday if you are truly saved, right? and on Wednesday nites too according to the Southern Baptist tradition, to prove you are really faithful.
Why do we not get it, worship is from the heart, the spirit, not a day? It is total committment to Jesus himself, and doing His will of love for his fellow man. Love is the full final fulfilling of the law. So many places they gather or gathered at any time that they could to share God’s word. Tore bibles into small pieces so that they could have a little bit of it to reflect upon.
Yes we do need to study the old testament for sure, as it is the history of the creation, the calling out of Abraham, the blessings to his descendants, the setting aside a notion, called Israel where God could put his laws out and get them to show an example of what he wanted and required.
The feast days, the sacrificial system, all of it was set in shadows of what was to come to fulfillment in Jesus Christ. All of it. However, Israel could never do it to the fullness needed, that is why God knew he had a better plan for our savior Jesus Christ to come to fulfill for us.
I am so thankful that for reasons I will not list, have been struggled through by prayer, supplication etc to seek the answers to this one. Which each and every believer will have to do for himself. Each has received the holy spirit when they truly repented and accepted the Lord Jesus. He is our comforter, and our teacher who will lead to all truth in Jesus Christ.
Thanks be to God I have entered into the sabbath rest of Jesus Christ who has paid the price for all my sins and all the things I cannot do, worship Saturday or Sunday, attend all the feast days etc.
I submit to you that all need to worship each and every day, and come together when and if you can with those believers who will open the bible and read it and start to see what it says without all the preconceived notions and things you were maybe taught in some denomination. I am free to worship my Lord Jesus any where, any time, any place even if man makes laws for it or against it, it is no matter.
As many who have gone before us know in the history of persecution, I do believe America will also follow into that for it is necessary discipline from our Father that the finish of this time come. Prophecies are being fulfilled in every way all around us.
There is probably not a one of you on here with me that agree on each and every single thing but this I do know, most of us are trying to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ as we have been told to do.
The church is at a time of great trouble as it is so difficult to find the ones who are truly placed in position by Jesus himself to do what the apostles told us to do. But we are not without help, for the first time in history almost many can read and write, many bibles have been translated all around the world. What a privileged and perilous time we are living in. But we have the tools we need, the holy spirit, the building of the prophets and apostles with Jesus being the chief cornerstone, and we are the living stones being built daily into this body of Christ, His church.
1Pe 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
1Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
1Pe 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
1Pe 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
1Pe 5:11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
I do not have all the answers but again I am so thankful that I know the ONE who does, and I will go to Him for my rest.
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mat 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
LikeLike
Amen Roma!!!
What people must understand is that we are saved by GRACE. It is Jesus and Jesus only.
Why do people want to burden the babes in Christ with laws? Can anyone please show me in Acts were the apostles instructed the church to keep the Sabbath? Did Paul ever instruct the church to keep the Sabbath? The greatest arguments Jesus had with the scribes was about their hypocrisy in keeping the Sabbath. He never instructed the 12 to keep the Sabbath.
Acts 15 is clear about yoking believers.
LikeLike
This, I believe is true
” If a person keeps the Sabbath in order to be justified through his own actions, that is rejecting Christ and attempting justification by law. If instead a person freely accepts grace but keeps the Sabbath as a thank offering for the work that Christ did on the Cross, that is different. God knows our hearts, and in the end, it’s your heart that will matter, not what you did or didn’t do on the Sabbath.”
So also is this
“Why do people want to burden the babes in Christ with laws? Can anyone please show me in Acts were the apostles instructed the church to keep the Sabbath? Did Paul ever instruct the church to keep the Sabbath? The greatest arguments Jesus had with the scribes was about their hypocrisy in keeping the Sabbath. He never instructed the 12 to keep the Sabbath. ”
Freely, Do, what you Believe to be true on this matter……..and you Will Not Offend God.
And that’s all should that matter to any of us………that we Do Not Offend The Lord.
LikeLike
Vic,
how can I post as large a picture as the one you posted above…..there is something we should discuss, and a picture I have would be helpful I think
LikeLike
Again I write the Levitcal Law is nailed to the cross. You people are blind. The apostles never needed to say we need to follow the Sabbath. One, it was never retracted. Two, they continued to live it. No where does it state they gave it up.
The NT says follow the commandments. Jesus said follow his Father’s commandments. The sabbath of the 10 Commandments (nor the others ones) is dead. Without the 10 commandments how do you know how to live? How do you know what is right or wrong? You cannot. The OT foretold the NT and the NT is fulfillment of the old. How do you know if you are being obedient or not?
I can see that scripture is not important to many on here. You want to live according to how you feel. I am done with it. Goodbye…
LikeLike
and this is untrue
“I can see that scripture is not important to many on here. You want to live according to how you feel. I am done with it. Goodbye”
LikeLike
Unbelievable.
Amen Vic, , Shorty, Mr B, Roma and Andre !
Mr Baldy , just a quick question. Didn’t you recommend this link some time ago?
The concern is that there is this understanding that we can ESCAPE {?} the pain and suffering in the tribulation by ……..
Quote
.” I came to realize that those who actually make it through all the judgments to the rapture have something different from other Christians who were martyred, and that was that they are observing their worship of God in a Messianic way instead of a paganized way.”
http://www.endtimesstudies.blogspot.ca/2011/01/brief-interruption-to-discuss-sabbath.html
There seems to be an explosion of deception and a massive strong delusion sweeping our land.
LikeLike
If Levitical law is nailed to the cross and we are supposed to keep every jot and tittle of it, Paul would never have written to the Galatians (chapter 5) and said:
“It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.”
Therefore, the only way anyone could possibly argue that we are obligated to keep the entire law is if that person also argues that Paul is a false apostle and his writings do not belong in the Bible. But if Paul is right, those who would take away others’ freedom in Christ have fallen away from grace and are alienated from Christ.
Furthermore, we have Acts 15 on this issue, which is also instructive:
Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue. Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren. When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”
The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. “And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. “Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? “But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”
I pray for wisdom for all the readers of this blog on this issue.
LikeLike
“I pray for wisdom for all the readers of this blog on this issue.”
me too
love to all
LikeLike
I can see that scripture is not important to many on here. You want to live according to how you feel. I am done with it. Goodbye…
Oh Agie95
for one thing the Gentiles that the apostles were addressing never ever kept the Jewish sabbath or the laws surrounding them, did they? You think the gentiles had been following the jewish sabbath or for many of them did they even know about it, until the Judaizers went around telling them. How about all the rest of it, you gotta keep it all, not just one part right? Sad sad day.
no they did not and they did not have to begin doing it either
as well the Roman Catholic Church once romanized more and more made Sunday the supposedly Christian sabbath that all had to keep
see what I am saying here had to keep, had to keep, had to keep new law put into effect by them to designate a day
Jesus has become the Sabbath (rest) for the children of God, worship him every day, all day every minute of each day. Meet whenever you possibly can with believers in any way you can. Do not become engulfed in any mans’ rule about this day?
Man was not created for the sabbath or keeping it. The sabbath was created by God to be a day of rest from working, physical etc.
Then the shadow and type of showing was that we are to enter into the rest of salvation and faith in Jesus Christ and cease from our own works no matter what they be in keeping anything.
Sad to see your response, but I know the bible have read it all my life, was taught to read it by my grandmother. I am free in Christ Jesus from any type of man telling me where I am to worship or how or when.
Never will I go under the yoke of bondage to any of this.
LikeLike
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. NIV
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.KJV
so tell me agie95 and others how in the world do you figure out what is the true 7th day now even??? impossible for most of us to do and even for those who try to may never get it right
How do you keep from doing any work??? we live in a world now where this is nearly impossible too as well
Even when Israel was set aside, they could not even do it as a nation.
what is wrong with you? call me blind to the scriptures, you are for sure blind to the simple truth of what a yoke you are trying to inflict on people
go ahead but it will never work with me in any way or form, we have been given the holy spirit the laws of god are now written on our hearts and minds so that we obey what God wants each to do, and it may be different, different gifts to each of us for our lives and ministry
LikeLike
I would not criticize anyone for keeping a 7th day Sabbath – if they were convicted in their own heart that this is how they should honor God in their worship. I would criticize them, as Vic has, if by doing so they claim to be “more obedient” or to have better works than me or my church who believe every day is lived first for the Lord, all of our labor is dedicated to the Lord and that we have a extra special day, an extra special double dose of the Sabbath on the first day of the week to recall they day he burst forth from the grave, defeated death and cancelled the debt I could never pay.
I would not criticize a woman for covering her head, though I would criticize man for doing such a thing since 1 Corinthians 11 commands us men not to do such a thing. If a woman covers her head and thinks it makes her more obedient and better disciple of Christ – she is a foolhardy woman. I would hope instead that she enjoys Gods provision of authority in her home and keeps an example of submission to authority that will bless her children, her husband and her church. If she chooses then to cover her head to remind her to pray and to remind her of the God’s perfect plan for leadership in the home and in the church – then it is a blessing and not a stumbling block to anyone else.
If a person decides they prefer the King James version or to learn Hebrew and Greek and read only those because it makes God’s word clearer to them and gives them a reverence for his provision of Life and Truth- wonderful. If that same person decides to use that conviction to claim a more true faith than those of us that value modern textual criticism – I would call them a hypocrite, a fool and a pharisee.
We should have no such disputes in the church – as many have said better than I could its not by any of these works for devotions that any one of us has been saved.
My eleven year old son paraphrased it well when he saw this discussion – “It doesn’t matter what day we keep for the Lord as long as we keep a day holy for the Lord.”
Romans 14 5-13
Even Christ said when faced with this Pharisee party –
We can’t claim any righteousness of our own – it is only by Christ’s perfect stainless righteousess that we are made holy. The keep of the Sabbath as a gift toward God – not something to hold over others as obligation is the only right way to view these texts and the old testament, through the lens of the Gospel.
Which would we rather be the proud Pharisee or the humble tax collector? Luke 18:9-13
It seems those that would bind heavy burdens on believers are trying to capitalize on peoples fears about what is going on in the world to draw them into their legalist or judaizing snare. I received an email from a man promoting a book “End Times Delusions” by Steve Wohlberg. I should thank him here, but I read some of this book and researched the author – and my recommendation is against this writer’s teaching. He presents arguments at length on why the pre-trib view is incorrect which I found myself agreeing with at first but then he goes on to trash every other view as well settling on something that set of all kinds of red lights in my spirit – so I read some more about the author to find he is a Seventh Day Adventist – which was not mentioned in any of the early parts of the book that I saw or anywhere else, even though he was pushing an eschatology that leaves room for only what I assume is a typical SDA view. I caution you – some will come in insisting on things other than the truth or that we need some other earthly wisdom. Don’t believe them, search the scriptures and continue on with the Gospel that you’ve already been given by God in his holy word.
LikeLike
Wow!
So many great testimonies – for witness!
To Hisown,
Yes, I did recommend the website that you have listed. Isn’t it amazing that in the time(s) that we are currently experiencing and living in with fellow Believers, that there seems to be discrepancies as far as TRUTH?
LikeLike
Mr Baldy,
I know as a South- African I don’t speak ” American” and have a hard time trying to communicate in a way that is understood.
It seems to me that there is an EXPLOSION of deception lately as each one has their OWN interpretation of “TRUTH”, this is mostly based on ” experience” rather than the WORD of God.How sad is that , but the worst is, nobody seems to care!
This path just grew narrower for me in the past few days and wonder if it’s even worth precious time in trying to contend anymore!
It’s as if the strong delusion has overtaken……..
LikeLike
Mr Sheep,
Amen and amen!
These words send chills down my spine- “It seems those that would bind heavy burdens on believers are trying to capitalize on peoples fears about what is going on in the world to draw them into their legalist or judaizing snare.”
It makes sense that the dragon will make war with the saints and overcome them for the 42 mont trib!
Rev 13:4 — And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
What a time to be alive.
Who among us will be able to stand.
LikeLike
Dear Hisown……
The very testimony that you have presented is proof positive that we have to ENDURE.
LikeLike
Thank-you Mr Baldy.
My husband is nowhere close to a PC and is in sunny Florida {and has no idea of what the discussion is currently on}. He just txted me this verse.
Rev 21:7 — He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Maybe we’ve been in the school of ” discipline” for the coming ” enduring” 🙂
We overcome by the BLOOD of the lamb and we love NOT our lives until death.
LikeLike
Amen! Love you all.
LikeLike
Mr Short, mail me the picture and I will post it for you. Sorry fir the delay in response.
LikeLike
sent email back…..will try to do that tonight vic
bless y’all
LikeLike
We all love you too Vic and praise the Lord for this little place of fellowship.
I pray that each one of us will be part of the “overcomer crowd” as we witness the sad reality that most places of discussion seem to have fallen into the end time delusion.
……………………… idols according to their own understanding.
Over the past few days the latter part of this verse has a newer understanding as the Holy Spirit groans in my body. Oh Lord God of Israel please keep us.
Hbr 3:13 — But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
1Pe 4:1 — Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
Hbr 12:1 — Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
LikeLike
love to the people,…enjoy your freedom,..enjoy the LIGHT. blessings in the Lord JESUS, let it shine,………and thank you all so very much
LikeLike
hi everyone-on another note—i just saw this and think the timing is very interesting..and wonder what you folks think… http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4405638,00.html ..seems appropriate for the 9th of av wouldn’t you say? eu (like a lit match) ramping it all up as israel’s enemy neighbors (like a huge gas can) getting ready to blow up……will be soon be needing a new and improved peace and safety agreement ? 😉
LikeLike
Wow Andre. My heart is pounding in my chest. This disputed area is what makes those in Judea flee. The timing falling on the 9th of Av is a huge concern? or am I being way to sensitive again?
Vic we may want to revisit that e-mail discussion in 2010 ?
…..then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Luk 21:20 — And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 — Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Mar 13:14 — But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
LikeLike
My gut says that this new directive is also tied to the ENP. Watch this closely. I updated my blog with a few additional thoughts.
LikeLike
“Peace Now said in response that “The EU’s decision sends a clear message: The world doesn’t recognize the settlements and they contradict universal, democratic values. The Israeli government is running a rearguard battle against the international understanding that the Israeli occupation of the territories must end.
I wonder what { who } it was that CONvinced Bibi to halt the construction – for PEACE?
Judgment for daring to place the yoke on Israel’s neck?
Isaiah – Chapter 47
Jeremiah – Chapter 50
Jeremiah – Chapter 51
LikeLike
Curt what a blessing to see you post 😉 We’ve missed ya!
Will take a peek right now!
LikeLike
Here is the link to the article:
http://the70thweek.blogspot.com/2013/07/eu-deals-will-force-israel-to-admit.html?m=1
7 years. Need I say more?
Thanks Curt!
LikeLike
Hisown, yes, maybe time to revisit 2010…
LikeLike
As the rhetoric at the temple mount reachs unprecedented levels within the Israeli government.
Yesterday:
Danon: Equal Prayer Rights on Temple Mount Now
Dept. Defense Minister Danny Danon joins growing calls for Jews to receive equal rights to worship on the Temple Mount, just like Muslims
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/169953#.UeW6mEGL0jo
Today:
MK Ben Dahan Vows to Enable Temple Mount Prayer
Deputy Religions Minister: How can it be that Jews are forbidden to pray on Temple Mount on Tisha B’Av?
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/169974#.UeW7B0GL0jo
LikeLike
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.536125
LikeLike
Thank-you for the link Andre, it seems as if the Lord’s Word has NOT returned void.
There is a evil that is being manifested that I’ve never witnessed in my walk with the Lord over the past 20 yrs and understand now what the ” wearing” down of the saints will look and feel like. The accuser of the brethren comes to kill steal and destroy and bring false accusations that have no validity, we have not see anything yet!
Vic I will join you in prayer over those two scripture confirmations that we all discussed in 2010 { of the disputed area in Israel } and will wait on the Lord on how He chooses to direct all of His own from here on.
LikeLike
[b]When Europe demanded Israel surrender the Western Wall[/b]
The European Union’s new directive banning any cooperation with Israeli institutions over the Green Line isn’t new, and is actually being implemented for Israel’s benefit, according to the office of the EU’s foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton.
The directive contains two main planks: denial of European funding to, and cooperation with, Israeli institutions based or operating over the Green Line, and a requirement that all future agreements between Israel and the EU — and possibly between Israel and individual member states as well — include a clause in which Israel accepts the European Union’s position that all territory over the Green Line does not belong to Israel.
As Ashton’s office noted in a statement sent to The Times of Israel Tuesday, the directive was “in conformity with the EU long-standing position that Israeli settlements are illegal under international law and with the non-recognition by the EU of Israel’s sovereignty over the occupied territories irrespective of their legal status under domestic Israeli law.”
….As another official noted, the EU’s new policy is in effect demanding that Israel deny — in writing — any rights to the Western Wall, Judaism’s holiest site, as a precondition for signing any agreement with the EU.
Ashton’s office tried to explain that the development was a positive one for Israel.
[b]“This is important in view of the new opportunities that will be offered to Israel (as an ENP [European Neighborhood Policy] partner) for participation in EU programmes and other funding instruments in the 2014-2020 financial framework,” read the statement issued to The Times of Israel.[/b]
“We want Israel to play a full part in these instruments and we want to be sure that Israel’s participation is not put in question so that Israel will be able to make use of all possibilities offered by the new financial framework,” it added.
For more go here..[url]http://www.timesofisrael.com/when-europe-accidentally-demanded-israel-surrender-the-western-wall/[/url]
LikeLike
When Europe demanded Israel surrender the Western Wall
The European Union’s new directive banning any cooperation with Israeli institutions over the Green Line isn’t new, and is actually being implemented for Israel’s benefit, according to the office of the EU’s foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton.
The directive contains two main planks: denial of European funding to, and cooperation with, Israeli institutions based or operating over the Green Line, and a requirement that all future agreements between Israel and the EU — and possibly between Israel and individual member states as well — include a clause in which Israel accepts the European Union’s position that all territory over the Green Line does not belong to Israel.
As Ashton’s office noted in a statement sent to The Times of Israel Tuesday, the directive was “in conformity with the EU long-standing position that Israeli settlements are illegal under international law and with the non-recognition by the EU of Israel’s sovereignty over the occupied territories irrespective of their legal status under domestic Israeli law.”
….As another official noted, the EU’s new policy is in effect demanding that Israel deny — in writing — any rights to the Western Wall, Judaism’s holiest site, as a precondition for signing any agreement with the EU.
Ashton’s office tried to explain that the development was a positive one for Israel.
“This is important in view of the new opportunities that will be offered to Israel (as an ENP [European Neighborhood Policy] partner) for participation in EU programmes and other funding instruments in the 2014-2020 financial framework,” read the statement issued to The Times of Israel.
“We want Israel to play a full part in these instruments and we want to be sure that Israel’s participation is not put in question so that Israel will be able to make use of all possibilities offered by the new financial framework,” it added.
For more go here..[url]http://www.timesofisrael.com/when-europe-accidentally-demanded-israel-surrender-the-western-wall/[/url]
This is getting really interesting.
Curt
LikeLike
When Europe demanded Israel surrender the Western Wall
The European Union’s new directive banning any cooperation with Israeli institutions over the Green Line isn’t new, and is actually being implemented for Israel’s benefit, according to the office of the EU’s foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton.
The directive contains two main planks: denial of European funding to, and cooperation with, Israeli institutions based or operating over the Green Line, and a requirement that all future agreements between Israel and the EU — and possibly between Israel and individual member states as well — include a clause in which Israel accepts the European Union’s position that all territory over the Green Line does not belong to Israel.
As Ashton’s office noted in a statement sent to The Times of Israel Tuesday, the directive was “in conformity with the EU long-standing position that Israeli settlements are illegal under international law and with the non-recognition by the EU of Israel’s sovereignty over the occupied territories irrespective of their legal status under domestic Israeli law.”
….As another official noted, the EU’s new policy is in effect demanding that Israel deny — in writing — any rights to the Western Wall, Judaism’s holiest site, as a precondition for signing any agreement with the EU.
Ashton’s office tried to explain that the development was a positive one for Israel.
“This is important in view of the new opportunities that will be offered to Israel (as an ENP [European Neighborhood Policy] partner) for participation in EU programmes and other funding instruments in the 2014-2020 financial framework,” read the statement issued to The Times of Israel.
“We want Israel to play a full part in these instruments and we want to be sure that Israel’s participation is not put in question so that Israel will be able to make use of all possibilities offered by the new financial framework,” it added.
For more go here..http://www.timesofisrael.com/when-europe-accidentally-demanded-israel-surrender-the-western-wall/
Things are getting really interesting.
Curt
LikeLike
Great discussion here. Very interesting developments with the Israel settlements/contracts issue.And 7 years!?!?!?!? Very very spooky and interesting. As someone said above, if Israel formally signs future contracts that say that East Jerusalem and West bank are not a part of Israel, then if EU launches a “human rights peace keeping mission” to bomb the Jews out of the WB, then the EU will just say “Well, you said it wasn’t yours anyway! You admitted it!” “Flee to the mountains” comes to mind, just like someone said above. Very evil.
I must add that politically speaking, the EU is about as useless as they come. They spend billions and billions of Euros, only to accomplish nothing. When they do accomplish something, it is always harmful to small businesses, to tax payers, to Israel….to everyone. Even from an entirely secular perspective, the EU is an absolutely abysmal political disaster. And increasingly tyrannical by the day.
LikeLike
Also, the comments that you posted Curt on how it is for Israel’s “benefit” and how they want them to be able to fully participate in the program, are themselves very spooky. What other programs do they want Israel to participate in that would require such a measure? By the way I saw yer post last night on FP and on yer blog good analysis.
LikeLike
Thank-you all for the links and the discussion.I don’t know how I’m going to keep my emotions in tact till Friday 😉
Vic what does this remind you of ?
“The decision also states that any future agreement signed with Israel must include a section that says the “settlements” are not part of sovereign Israel and therefore not included in the agreement.”
” This is the first time in which a explicit and formal instruction like this is issued. Until now, there were silent understandings and agreements that the EU does not work beyond the Green Line” – as the 1949 Armistice Line is known – “but this is an official and binding prohibition.”
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/169966#.UeYQUhato4Z
LikeLike
Just to add something I found:
Apparently the EU is not satisfied with this new funding ban that they put in place that we have been talking about.
Apparently the EU is ready to penalize Israel EVEN MORE if they don’t cooperate with John Kerry’s peace talks.
The title of this article says it all:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.536047
Notice, Ashton (EU High rep) is herself against some of these measures. She got into a big debate with other EU foreign ministers. Since she is a woman, she is disqualified from being the Antichrist. (I’m sure she’s thrilled to hear).
Question is, is there a MAN behind this who keeps causing all this trouble?
LikeLike
http://euprophecynews.blogspot.com/2013/07/a-chilling-scenario-major-eu-power.html
Interesting scenario.
LikeLike
Concerning the ENP, I posted the following comments on FP:
milo3 (Curt) wrote: “I am convinced that this “clause” is tied to previously signed on agreements between the EU and Israel, most notably the ENP. The EU is simply trying to enforce previously signed agreements.”
Has anyone noticed that this is a “Beast System” and not a man? There are some who believe that this same “Beast System” is the False Prophet mentioned in Revelation 13 – I beg to differ.
I believe that in the days to come – after this “Beast System”; which arises from the “Sea” mentioned in Revelation 13, sets everything into place for the coming Antichrist “Beast from the Earth” – to take power & control over the entire Earth.
Please give this some consideration, as there may not be a so-called False Prophet – but a system itself that sets up the kingdom of Antichrist.
AND:
Just to note……
For those who have ruled out the ENP – please take this into consideration as well:
Even though there has been an original time period of 2007 -2013 for the ENP to have run it’s course, this does not negate the fact that there still has been a Covenant with Many that has been established – that being the ENP. The time period(s) that have been established 2007 – 2013 and now 2014 -2020 are only 7 year time periods in which funding has been approved for this already “confirmed” Covenant with Many. (Many I believe are missing that crucial point)
So in essence, some may be overlooking the fact that the Covenant with Many is already in place; and with the “Beast System”; aka: EU working it’s magic to put everything in ORDER – we could only be waiting for the coming Antichrist to rise to power.
This ENP deal just won’t go away – nor has is died.
LikeLike
I was thinking the same thing Baldy – and would add neither has the ENP’s author even though he holds no formal office at the moment, yet seems quite vibrant active and energetic for a retired “technocrat”.
LikeLike
Amen Mr Baldy amen! and to all the above comments! Powerfully written David. Thank-you!
A dragon “system” that is governed by an unprecedented evil? And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast.
It’s best to keep in mind that it’s been “given unto him ” { by the Lord } to make war with the saints.This reassures my heart like none other 😉 I suppose it is this that separates the boys { girls } from the men.
No cowards enter into the gates of the eternal city right !
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
Mr B you said – ” So in essence, some may be overlooking the fact that the Covenant with Many is already in place; and with the “Beast System”; aka: EU working it’s magic to put everything in ORDER – we could only be waiting for the coming Antichrist to rise to power.”
Would this be accompanied by the casting out of Lucifer { once and for all } as Michael leaves his position { as the protector of Israel } and makes war with him in the heavenliness?
Would this then cause all h*ll to break loose on earth ? I humbly believe so yes.
Verse 9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
The Lord has promised that He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what [is] in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him . We can’t say we never knew .
I humbly believe the “heads up” was given back in 2010 about the desolation , the compassing and the division of God’s land. Let him that readeth understand.The ENP was part of the road map to destruction. Israel’s planned destruction. 😦
Luk 21:20 — And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 — Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Mar 13:14 — But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
I love that we’re back on track.
It sure has been a major test of endurance and patience.
Phl 3:15 — Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
LikeLike
Speaking of which,,,,,,
Could this be the “separating line” between the men { girls } and the boys in the dark days ahead?
Spying on those that hold the TESTIMONY of Jesus Christ?
Deliver Us From Evil
http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs138/1101818841456/archive/1114146253692.html
http://www.olivetreeviews.org
July 16, 2013
The dragon is spitting mad !
Rev 12:17 — And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
LikeLike
I am still wondering people.. how much die actual evidence is that Christ fullfiled the first 3, 5 years of the 70th week… I am still waiting for solana to come on the scene and yet.. I dont want to defend the ENP when it is not the right thing..
LikeLike
Mathieu,
there is IMO compelling evidence that Christ fulfilled the first 3.5, but it is however, incomplete.
I will provide some very interesting links later in the day ok? Heading to the shop.
LikeLike
Hullo Matt, 😉
The ENP is our ” heads-up ” and the dividing of the land is the sorrowful consequence.
Let’s wait { patiently } on the Lord to see if that which He has been preparing us for comes to pass.
The Lord’s WORD is true and faithful and He has promised to show us and I know you are led by His spirit! 🙂
Rom 8:14 — For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
He has promised to show us things yet to come.
Jhn 16:13 — Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
About the 70 weeks. Just a question.
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
(Dan 9:24)
Where ALL these fulfilled at the cross or?
LikeLike
Aha there you go.
I knew that question would bring Mr Shorty out of hiding 🙂 hheee. I love it!
LikeLike
shorttribber I am curious, as I am – just as everybody is- looking for the truth. So you can email me at matkleer@telfort.nl or at the website http://www.eindtijdactueel.nl
and yes.. Dan 9:24… pff it is giving me a head arche
LikeLike
Hi Mathieu,
You wrote this:
“I am still wondering people.. how much die actual evidence is that Christ fullfiled the first 3, 5 years of the 70th week… I am still waiting for solana to come on the scene and yet.. I dont want to defend the ENP when it is not the right thing..”
Mathieu, I don’t want to destroy anyone’s theory concerning End Times Prophecy, but personally I believe that the whole 3.5 year theory “may” have some holes in it, if the ENP turns out to be the real deal.
I say this because the ENP is the only viable 7 year “Covenant with Many” that actually fits the bill as presented by Scripture. (Daniel 9:24-27). This works in conjunction with the fact that during this 7 year time frame – that in it’s “midst” or “middle” sacrifice and offering ceases, as cased by the “he” that is mentioned. Jesus is NOT the “he” mentioned in Daniel 9:27 in my very humble opinion. And this is just one reason why I have ruled out the fact that He fulfilled the 1st half of the 7 year Covenant with Many. This just won’t work for me.
I believe that the “he” mentioned in Daniel 9:27 is the coming Antichrist. Just the plain reading of Scripture demands this understanding. With the ENP having yet ANOTHER 7 year “budgeting” time frame, is solid evidence to consider that it just may well be the Covenant with Many that has been provided by Scripture.
I previously wrote this:
For those who have ruled out the ENP – please take this into consideration as well:
Even though there has been an original time period of 2007 -2013 for the ENP to have run it’s course, this does not negate the fact that there still has been a Covenant with Many that has been established – that being the ENP. The time period(s) that have been established 2007 – 2013 and now 2014 -2020 are only 7 year time periods in which funding has been approved for this already “confirmed” Covenant with Many. (Many I believe are missing that crucial point)
So in essence, some may be overlooking the fact that the Covenant with Many is already in place; and with the “Beast System”; aka: EU working it’s magic to put everything in ORDER – we could only be waiting for the coming Antichrist to rise to power.
Mathieu, and others who are reading this………… please understand that Solana may come back to power – and if the ENP is the real deal, then authority for him will be given for 3.5 years, by the “Beast System” in place. But I believe that it must be within a time frame set for 7 years – this would complete the requirement for a whole and true final week; that appears to be missing, verses 3.5 years. We must remember that the Beast System; and the coming Antichrist are synonymous in that they are working behind the power of Satan – being both a Governmental entity and a man. This could also mean that the “stoppage of sacrifice & grain offering” could be by this same “Beast System”; and not a “literal man”. Keep in mind that the book of Daniel and Revelation both show Symbolic language.
Please don’t rule out the ENP based on your own ideas on how things “should have happened” – or the fact that the 7 years for the original ENP is about to expire. This new renewal of the ENP gives evidence that we were and currently are looking at the right 7 year agreement with “Many” that has been established – and again, it has already been “confirmed” in that the very essence in what it is just won’t go away. It’s the “budgeting” periods in which it’s course is to run is what I believe may be throwing believer’s who are watching off.
In closing, and as I have always stated…..I am not dogmatic about my views, but the facts presented, should definitely be sending us a ‘red flag’ concerning the ENP.
LikeLike
Take a look at this when you have an opportunity Mathieu,
this link has a ton of stuff on it about the 3.5 /division in the midst/ Covenant Confirmation…..tons and tons.
It may require some time to take it all in…….I had much more to share about it but it got derailed and ended before I had the chance to.
http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=64776
LikeLike
I will study it, thanks Shorttribber, and thanks mr. Baldy, you have made some exelent points but when you say But I believe that it must be within a time frame set for 7 years – this would complete the requirement for a whole and true final week; that appears to be missing, verses 3.5 years, do you mean It has to be in the original ENP, and what to think of the treaty that is gonna be confirmed for seven years in 2014?
LikeLike
Hi Mathieu,
I can see that the way that I am explaining this all is confusing you. “Shorty” and I have had a previous discussion concerning his theory about Jesus fulfilling the 1st half of the final week – and I have had to respectfully disagree. With his theory, Jesus would have to be the “he” that is mentioned in Daniel 9:27 – which would mean that Jesus’ death on the cross would also have to be the abomination that causes desolation. I wholeheartedly disagree with this theory.
The point that I believe that you are missing in my explanation is that I believe that the ENP IS the Covenant with Many. The time period in which it is budgeted, or funded makes no difference. Meaning that the original ENP was “confirmed” as Javier Solana was the person responsible for it’s implementation. The original period was from 2007 – 2013 as we all know. Well now it appears as if nothing will happen during this 7 year time frame as it relates to Bible Prophecy – but this does not take away the fact that the ENP has been established – or “confirmed”. It’s purpose and name (ENP) will just not go away.
Proof of that is the new budgeting period in which it is to continue – and that is now 2014 -2020. So, the funding periods for the ENP’s purpose – which each have been 7 year periods has nothing to do about the ENP being “confirmed” – as it is already in place; but more about the money that will allow it’s purpose to continue.
I hope that I have explained this so that you may understand.
LikeLike
I can see that the way that I am explaining this all is confusing you. “Shorty” and I have had a previous discussion concerning his theory about Jesus fulfilling the 1st half of the final week – and I have had to respectfully disagree. With his theory, Jesus would have to be the “he” that is mentioned in Daniel 9:27 – which would mean that Jesus’ death on the cross would also have to be the abomination that causes desolation
Quoting Mr Baldy…
This is not at all the case Mr Baldy……….the text does not require that conclusion at all.
We will continue to agree to disagree, but please don’t give cause to disprove my position based on that……the text simply does not Require that.
LikeLike
Here’s some more interesting types and shadows of the Split Seventieth Week Mathieu……When you’re able to set some time aside, you absolutely must check out the link provided here below about the Red Heifer too.
Jer.34
18 And I will give the men that have transgressed my covenant, which have not performed the words of the covenant which they had made before me,……………………………………………………………. when they cut the
http://gospel-herald.com/finneman/red_heifer.htm
calf in twain,…………………………………………………………….. and passed between the parts thereof,
19 The princes of Judah, and the princes of Jerusalem, the eunuchs, and the priests, and all the people of the land, which passed between the parts of the calf;
20 ………………………I will even give them into the hand of their enemies,………………………….. and into the hand of them that seek their life: and their dead bodies shall be for meat unto the fowls of the heaven, and to the beasts of the earth.
How can this represent Anything other than Christs Ministry and Confirmation of The Covenant Divided? When we Compare how the Red Heifer was USED in the Performances of the Law, and how Abraham asked, How shall i KNOW?
How shall You oh God, CONFIRM to me your PROMISE?
OH, OK, You want me to CUT a Heifer in TWO PARTS, And BY FAITH let not the Fowls (ENEMIES of This Confirmation) Interfere while it is DAY.
While i SLEEP (as though Sleeping in death) You shall Judge like a SMOKING POT and Be a LIGHT and LAMP to the Gentiles
BETWEEN the TWO PARTS that REPRESENT the CONFIRMATION of The Covenant That You PROMISE to Me This Day.
How else could “The princes of Judah, and the princes of Jerusalem, the eunuchs, and the priests, and…………………………… ALL the people……………………………… of the land”, Pass BETWEEN the PARTS?
Here’s the next bite.
SEVEN TIMES mentioned……………………….SEVEN (7) SEVEN
ONE…….Gen 12:7….TWO……Gen 13: 15-16…….THREE….Gen 15: 3-18
……………………………….FOUR……..Gen 17: 7-19……….In the “MIDST”……………………….(FIRST MENTION)(Remember the Law of First Mention)(FIRST MENTION of “Establish/Confirm Everlasting Covenant)…….Between the First and Second GROUP OF THREE.
FIVE…….Gen 18:18……SIX…….Gen 21: 4-12…..SEVEN…..Gen 22:16-18
Circumcision of the Flesh to be “Everlasting”?………no.
What Circumcision IS “Everlasting”?….of the Heart….Established/Confirmed “Everlasting” by Christ and the New Covenant.
WHO “Established/CONFIRMED”………….That PROMISE?
LikeLike
Yes Shorty, we shall continue to agree to disagree……
Just answer this: Doesn’t your theory concerning what you have presented that Christ has fulfilled the 1st half of the final week mean that His death at the Cross would be the AOD?
LikeLike
I just want to add this concerning the ENP……for those who don’t understand what I have been trying to convey.
This is a very “literal” Covenant with Many; once it was established and it was “confirmed” from it’s very existence. It doesn’t need to be “re-confirmed” each time it’s term runs out. The fact of the matter is that it is in place – and it should very well get the attention of all who study Bible Prophecy; in that it has not gone away. Each time it is renewed, doesn’t mean that it has to have a person who re-confirms it, because it is not a new covenant, but it needs the funding to allow it to fulfill it’s purpose. I believe that there is a difference – and it could be the reason why many are still not paying attention to it.
I’m not trying to convince anyone to believe what I am saying, just trying to bring what makes sense to me to the table – and I could be wrong. I do not believe that Christ fulfilled the 1st half of the final week – and I further believe that we still have a final 7 year time period in which we must deal with.
LikeLike
Hi Mr. Baldy,
you’ve asked…
“Just answer this: Doesn’t your theory concerning what you have presented that Christ has fulfilled the 1st half of the final week mean that His death at the Cross would be the AOD?”
It’s not a Necessity to conclude that by the text, no………but……..it could have been be…..what might be understood as………….you might say………..AN….AOD……….just AS the spirit of the Loser has always been Against Christ.
It is not to be understood as The, One Final AOD that shall be Fulfilled By the Loser in the End of Days.
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………
I don’t know if you ever saw this before but it needs a good look and understanding I think….
“Not again”! you may say………….we’ve been under that old barn hunt’n eggs forever and for the most part we all come out with the same ole eggs……….true but not in every case.
I want to focus on something completely different about it……only one portion of it mainly.
here is the best word for word i could find from Hebrew directly into English of the section for discussion.
and upon as wings (3671)abominations(8251)desolation/astonishment (8074) even until (5704) end (3617) and that decreed (2782) shall outpour (5413) on the desolator (8074)
It is quite well known that this is a very obscure portion of scripture and has been translated or rather I should say interpreted many different ways.
But why really in light of this passage?
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
Mathew 23
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that ………….killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee(abomination8251), how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her]…………….. wings………(as wings3671)……………, and ye ………..would not!…………(abomination8251)
38 Behold(astonishment8074), your house is…… left unto you (and that decreed2782)……..(even until5704)desolate.
39 For I say unto you,(decreed2782)……… Ye shall not see me henceforth, ………..till……….(even until5704) ye shall say, Blessed [is]………. he that cometh(shall outpour[5413] on the [8074]desolator) in the name of the Lord.
Now i know that who the “He” is makes or breaks what all believe about 9:27……but I just want to ask what justification there has been to add so many interpretive extra words into what was never part of the known Hebrew text……..
Other than of course to interpret rather than translate, which is what most of the modern Bible versions demonstrate.
Jesus decreed the desolation……they who killed the prophets are the desolators and abominators along with all unbelievers and their future head, the Loser antichrist.
Did the desolators gather under His wings or did they place abomination/astonishment upon His outstretched wings?
Did they place a blasphemous crown upon His head….did they place nails in his outstretched wings……was not the abominations of the entire world placed on Him?
Sure He allowed so willingly………….but………..it was still placed upon Him.
He was rejected and slain and abomination upon His wings…………..because they would not be gathered to Him.
And still they reject Him………..until their gathering………even until the END.
.
.
LikeLike
And Mr Baldy, about the ENP and this next 7 year thing your speaking of……I think I could very well be Another Layer to the Prophecy…….but it’s only a decoy imo, not the Primary Fulfillment of Dan 9:27, only a decoy to ensure the vision is sealed until the Loser is cast out and the Seventh seal opens………….along with our understanding.
LikeLike
Hi to you as well Shorty…….
Again, I have viewed your theory concerning Christ’s Ministry has fulfilled the first half of the final week – and you have even admitted that Christ death on the cross is an “AOD” in your previous post. Again…I very much beg to differ – and it’s certainly very, very sad that the very Death of our Lord & Savior, and the blood that He shed can even be viewed in such a way as to make some sort of theory work. I’m sorry if I sound hard, but I’m just pointing out what I have in my heart.
And to say that another AOD is yet future, as it relates to the Lord’s death on the cross (in your theory) – will be fulfilled by the “Loser” as you call him, puts even more holes in the 3.5 year theory. The Lord’s death on the cross, should never be compared to a future AOD, or ANY AOD at all! This is no matter what He suffered – as it was His decision to take upon the death in which He was to ensue. He even rebuked Peter concerning His death.
Nevertheless, you can’t have it both ways. The 1st AOD that Scripture mentions is Antiochus Epiphanes, and what he did, as compared to what the coming Antichrist will do in the near future. This absolutely cannot be in any way, shape, or form, be compared to the death of Christ.
Jesus mentioned that : “when you see” the AOD “STANDING” in the “holy place”, further referencing this to what the Prophet Daniel “SPOKE” – and this requires “understanding”. Some want to equate this to the coming Antichrist “sitting” in a 3RD Temple – but I’m not so sure about this particular theory as well.
In closing, and I will mention this yet again….. I believe that there is a Final 7 year time period that remains. The ENP still appears to be a solid Covenant with Many that need to be seriously looked at.
LikeLike
” it’s certainly very, very sad that the very Death of our Lord & Savior, and the blood that He shed can even be viewed in such a way as to make some sort of theory work. ”
I’m not saying it to make a theory work…..as i said….it’s not necessary to read the text that way at all for shorttrib to be proven correct.
The AOD does not require a Direct reference to Dan 9:27 at all.
But would you not agree that the killing of God could be considered an abomination or astonishment?
The abominations of the entire world was placed on Him…….He Became an Abomination…..He Became SIN for US.
He BECAME so Abominable Through OUR SIN Being Placed on Him that he Became Separated from His Father………………That’s Astonishing to me…..you may see it differently.
That’s ok, as I said, if OUR SIN Placed ON Him was not at least An Abomination For those Responsible for it (That is YOU and ME, and the World), then i’ll let God show me otherwise.
But I do understand your uneasiness in thinking of His Glorious Death for us in that manner.
LikeLike
“The 1st AOD that Scripture mentions is Antiochus Epiphanes, and what he did, as compared to what the coming Antichrist will do in the near future. This absolutely cannot be in any way, shape, or form, be compared to the death of Christ. ”
Yes it can be compared……..I myself, the entire world and you, were AS the PIG slain on the Alter of God Almighty……………….I know that’s a horrible thought, but true.
Thank you Lord for Becoming Sin For US.
LikeLike
Shorty you wrote:
“Yes it can be compared……..I myself, the entire world and you, were AS the PIG slain on the Alter of God Almighty……………….I know that’s a horrible thought, but true.”
“Thank you Lord for Becoming Sin For US.”
Shorty, I believe that you’re missing something here. While I can respect your opinion, I think that the comparison is completely and utterly detestable. Please allow me to state how your view “may” be interpreted:
In your analogy you are saying that we were “AS” the “PIG” slain on the Alter of God Almighty, and in essence because our Lord became sin for us in His death, He was equal to this detestable act of slaying a PIG by evil men who were mocking the way the sacrificial requirements were to be made.
Well Shorty, while I believe what you are trying to convey is not with any malice or evil intent, I must say that again, I find this comparison deplorable. I say this because it is the BLOOD that was shed by our Lord and Savior that became the propitiation for our sins – and by His stripes we are all heeled. Without the shedding of BLOOD there is no remission for sin. The blood of animals could never do what our Lord and Savior came to do. Comparing the deplorable act of slaying an unclean animal on a Holy and Sacred place of worship in an effort to mock a sacrifice – with The Pure, Clean; having no sin Savior, who died voluntarily for the sins of the World, in that the will of God be done……well, need I say anymore?
LikeLike
“and in essence because our Lord became sin for us in His death, He was equal to this detestable act of slaying a PIG by evil men who were mocking the way the sacrificial requirements were to be made.”
No, Mr. Baldy, that’s not it………….We, as the Unclean Pig, placed on The Sinless Lamb…..WE are the Abominable thing, Placed on Our Holy Sinless Glorious Savior and God…….Our Sin was the Abominable Thing.
It is a profoundly Hard thing to take in……..but it is just the truth.
LikeLike
I’m very confused by the foregoing discussion, and am not wanting to argue–just ponder. I was hoping maybe one of the commenters here might shed some light on a couple of questions I’ve always had.
1. If the Tribulation is 7 years, how come it is always referred to as 3.5 years in every place in the Bible except for Daniel? As far as I can tell, Daniel is the only scripture that mentions some kind of 7 year time frame for a tribulation, and I think that’s unusual–mainly because prophecies about important events (and I’d say the trib qualifies as important) are always addressed in many, many locations from various angles. But not the 7 years. It’s mentioned in one place, but all other places are 3.5. For example, in every place in Revelation, it’s 3.5, and even in Daniel 12, it’s 3.5 years post abomination.
2. Regarding the scripture “let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.” Am I wrong, or is Judea primarily under Palestinian control and populated mostly with Palestinians right now? If the abomination were upon us, what that tells me is that the Palestinians better run, because the Jews and their allies are about to attack them in a huge way. In order for that to happen, I suppose they’d have to do something to the Jerusalem temple mount. In any case, this scripture seems to me (if it were interpreted as happening at this point in time) to be about Jews attacking Palestinians, instead of the other way around.
That said, I am aware of one scholar who wrote a book on the Psalm 83 war, and he seems fairly certain that Judea will be back under Israeli control by the time the abomination happens. If that is so, there would have to be a huge middle east war with a crushing defeat by Israel first. Then of course there would eventually be a large international backlash.
Watch and wait, I guess.
LikeLike
Howdy Diane,
you’ve asked……
“Regarding the scripture “let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.” Am I wrong, or is Judea primarily under Palestinian control and populated mostly with Palestinians right now? If the abomination were upon us, what that tells me is that the Palestinians better run, because the Jews and their allies are about to attack them in a huge way.”
Seems that ancient Judea would include the entire Mountainous part of Southern Israel is what Jesus referenced, not just a thin sliver of the Gaza strip. Geography has never really been one of my stronger subjects……..so i’m just adding my two cents on it.
and you’ve asked….
” If the Tribulation is 7 years, how come it is always referred to as 3.5 years in every place in the Bible except for Daniel? As far as I can tell, Daniel is the only scripture that mentions some kind of 7 year time frame for a tribulation, and I think that’s unusual–mainly because prophecies about important events (and I’d say the trib qualifies as important) are always addressed in many, many locations from various angles. But not the 7 years. It’s mentioned in one place”
Actually Diane, it’s not mentioned there in Daniel either. It is Assumed by the Modern Masses of Christians to be Referring To a Seven year trib…..but that’s, as I said, only an errant Assumption imo.
There are many reasons why folks assume that…….and the Reasons are valid to a degree, but I feel the Reasons and evidence is much stronger against that idea.
Here’s another interesting link to Understand the Literary Structure of Dan 9:25-27
http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=56734
LikeLike
I may just be slow, but I don’t see the chiastic structure of that part of Daniel 9.
I think that some of Daniel 9 refers to Christ, but honestly have a very hard time not seeing the subject of the later parts of the passage as the prince of the people to come (the AC).
A couple questions I have though –
It seems everyone assumes the 2nd coming of Christ is said to take place the end of the “70th week” – for the life of me I can’t see where that’s spelled out.
My second question-
what if the 70th week, marked by the covenant with many is just a way of marking off a period for Israel – a period where they are at first waiting for he Messiah, and then a second period where their hearts are hardened against him? So then the end of the 70th week would not be the second coming but the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10?
What I’m suggesting –
Isn’t it possible that he 70th week does not include any of the tribulation (time of Jacob’s trouble) or God’s wrath? If it were so then the covenant could come immediately before those things and the turning of Israel to the Lord would come early in the progression towards the return of our Lord. It would also keep with the ministry of both the two witnesses an the 144000 – as being God’s final two prophets, and his 144000 evangelists out of the virgin men of Israel.
If that were he case – couldn’t Baldy still be right – the current ENP fulfills the prophecy for the covenant with many and the stopping of the daily just needs to happen sometime between now and December (which from multiple other readings I’ve done doesn’t require a temple since it’s not very specific about what daily it is).
LikeLike
“No, Mr. Baldy, that’s not it………….We, as the Unclean Pig, placed on The Sinless Lamb…..WE are the Abominable thing, Placed on Our Holy Sinless Glorious Savior and God…….Our Sin was the Abominable Thing.”
Shorty, I have understood exactly what you are trying to convey – I just happen to disagree with how you have put it forth – in that it can cause some very unreasonable understanding when trying to explain your theory.
“WE” are NOT the “Abominable thing” – but our SIN is – so let’s not mix words, as you have done in an attempt to tie it in with your theory. Nor has the continuous sin that we commit caused desolation. Absolutely NONE of us can stop sinning, and this is why Christ died for us, and took on the sin we cannot undo for ourselves. God so loved the World, and gave His Son for us, because He loves us, not our sin. The act in which Antiochus Epiphanes committed was an abomination, that certainly caused desolation. There is no comparison.
The effort in which you are trying to put forth in that you believe is commendable, but your theory lacks a sound basis, and has very serious flaws. At the end of the day, you are still saying that the death in which Jesus did voluntarily; lowering Himself in submission to the will of God the Father; is comparable to that of the mockery in which a filthy pig was slain to represent a sacrificial offering. Again, let’s not mix words as to confuse those who are trying to understand.
There will be a future AOD – of that we can be sure of. When asked by His disciples Christ mentioned the AOD as something that will be seen; in that it (whatever it is) will be “seen standing in the Holy Place”; it would be future, and required “understanding”. This in my very humble opinion absolutely cannot be compared to the sacrificial; volunteered; and by the WILL of God death on the cross by our Lord and Savior. Again, Christ further mentioned this as a “future” act as it related to His Return, in contrast to His death on the Cross. So that is something else for you to consider.
In closing, there is nothing that Scripture doesn’t provide as far as understanding that there is yet a future 7 year period that remains. The Covenant with Many that the coming Antichrist “confirms” somehow works in connection with the 3.5 year reign that he will accomplish – and it will be as Scripture mentions; a 3.5 year reign, his reign will not be cut “short”.
LikeLike
Well, as I said before, I understand you rejection of the things I’ve mentioned…..I’ve also acknowledged that common system you own is reasonable to a degree.
When I said “We” I did clarify that I was referring to “Our Sin” in other words of OUR Carnal Man/Carnal Nature.
There is also, as I said before, no reason to suggest that this idea about a Shadow or Another Type of AOD (Our Sin Placed ON our Just and Holy Savior) , establishes or de-establishes Shorttrib………..it does not.
We will all find out eventually……..but IF things occur as I’ve mentioned……you’ll then know to expect a much shorter Trib…..and that’s a good thing.
Bless ya
LikeLike
Amen to your words Shorty.
I want to say this from the heart: Even though we may disagree – absolutely none of us have it 100% correct. I commend your efforts, and you willingness to stand up to the scrutiny that most want to say, but don’t have the heart, or understanding to say. And this is not to point a finger at anyone – but it is an effort to bring forth TRUTH, and/or the understanding thereof.
The very words that I type on this, and other forums should be challenged. I want someone to tell me when I’m wrong – or can provide evidence based on Scripture that what I am trying to convey may be wrong. I wholeheartedly welcome it, as I am very often times wrong. I just want the truth to be brought forth – and all so that it edifies the Body of Christ, and brings Glory to His Name!
God bless you brother!
LikeLike
“I just want the truth to be brought forth – and all so that it edifies the Body of Christ, and brings Glory to His Name!
God bless you brother!”
these are the things we both own……absolutely 🙂
LikeLike
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. 1 Corinthians 13:12
Agreed – we all speculate, and we do our best to try to interpret scripture with scripture, but the weakest link is between the eyes that read scripture and the fingers on keyboards that relay our best attempt (even as diligent and carefully researched as they are) that are yet incomplete.
We know there is prophecy fulfilled, so much about the coming of the Lord, so much that he said about the destruction of the temple and the scattering of Israel throughout the world, and so much about the regathering of a remnant to the land – we simply hope and wait knowing the rest will come to pass, even if we can only guess at how. I trust that the Holy Spirit will reveal that which we need to know when he determines we need to know it. I think among those here who have over the years shown themselves to love the Lord and seek to know him through his word that our disagreements will cease as the truth is made plain to us by the same spirit that caused it to be written so many centuries ago.
LikeLike
it’ll shine when it shines!
LikeLike
….or like Shelby says,”blessins”. I don’t know if i’ve ever heard anyone say anythin’ that sweet in all my life,…..kinda like when Andrea says, “nuff said”. Oh my Goodness, i looove southern
LikeLike
…or when tribber starts in ta talkin’ bout all them chickens underneath that ole’ barn,…now thats funny as heck! rock on Rick ole’ boy! one a these here days we’re gonna take n cetch all a them birds!
LikeLike
keep on rockin’ in the free world,..hey btw did you all hear that black man [representative ] from Virginia in his campaign for office speak out about freedom and guvmint keepin’ out of all our business! this ole boy can say it! i will go git the link to his awesome speech and be right back
LikeLike
http://www.jacksonforlg.com/the-speech-that-rocked-virginia/…….all you got ta do is spell virginia correctly???,…i’ll be right back wiff the proper spellin’,…fear not
LikeLike
enjoy and be inspired
LikeLike
Diane,
If I may say so, modern day Judea is in an area, more commonly known today as the West Bank. It is currently under Israeli control and was area captured during the six day war in 1967. Hope this helps.
Curt
LikeLike
Thanks all for the replies. Shorttribber, I’m inclined to agree with you about the 7 years in Daniel 7. The chiastic structure is interesting and is not something I’d come across before. I was very interested to read about it. Even supposing there IS a 7 year tribulation, scripture seems pretty clear that the “great” portion of it starts when the beast stops the “daily” (whatever that is), and then begins a 3.5 year reign until the end. I guess we won’t really know until we know. Interestingly, this also coincides with the time in which the beast throws the harlot off its back, which seems to be a metaphor for the destruction of Mystery Babylon. Prior to that, Mystery Babylon literally has the beast under her control, therefore she must be a world power immediately prior to the time the beast comes to power. That opens up all kinds of interesting speculations.
Shorttribber and Curt–yes, I had always thought Judea was mostly located in the West Bank. Although they did capture that area in 1967, it is under a dual government structure, and the rest of the world doesn’t officially recognize that part of Israel as Israel (hence all the arguments over settlement building). Yes, there are Jewish settlements there, but it is populated primarily by Palestinians, and the Palestinians do exercise their own governmental powers there. (So maybe the scripture is warning the people in Jewish settlements in the West Bank to run for the mountains.) And of course this week in the news, we now we have the EU’s decision to cut off Israeli support in that area, and a peace negotiation underway with the goal of removing all Israeli influence from the area permanently. It will be interesting to see what develops.
LikeLike
Amen Curt, and this is WHY we’re all sitting on the edge of our seats. Especially noting the
Luk 21:20 abomination that makes desolate 😦
— And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
It’s the Jews that flee and that seems to be our ” heads up ” for entering into the 42 month trib , or will that accompany Satan’s final casting out as well ?
I believe they go hand in hand.
Will post a few questions later today 😉
LikeLike
This is to Diane,..i thought mystery babylon gets destroyed at the pretty near end. ? i read it in revelation, i thought it was plain as day,…although i can’t say, at this moment exactly where in so far as chapter/verses,…..i’ll go back n look again. i keep thinking romes vatican is mystery babylon and that America is Babylon the Great., or perhaps the EU as revived Rome being Babylon the Great. Its wierd how the pope wears a keepa, [ one of them little round jewish caps ] on his head. Doc Marquis and folks like John Muncey all have done well documented research to show the Nimrod….connect to ….Vatican Rome, thru the passing along of the mystery religions winding along like a serpent thru time to eventually settle in wearing a c-h-r-i-s-t-i-a-n veneer.
LikeLike
@Tony–well, I cannot say for sure, but I get the impression that Babylon falls twice in Revelation, so it’s interesting that you mentioned two different Babylons. She falls off the beast when he throws her off his back, and then there is a fall near the end as well. I am wondering if this could be a dual prophecy, and if so, perhaps that’s why the scripture always reads, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great.” Why two “fallens?” Does it fall twice? Interesting to speculate on.
LikeLike
Another thing I thought was interesting is that on my last read through Revelation, I noticed that the number 666 did not appear to be tied to the Antichrist beast. Instead it appeared to be the number of the false prophet beast. I was amazed how many years I’d had that wrong.
LikeLike
Hi Diane, do you mean its the false prophet who causes all to receive a mark to do commerce,…i thought that was the AC, you know, the Beast? Ah but you did say, false prophet beast. i am currently confused,…back to the ole drawing board. / As for rev 17 and rev chapt. 18, one appears to be spiritual and the other commercial components of BABYLON. ..?….
LikeLike
This one last observation and comparison should be addressed ok?
In light of this following statement of Mr. Baldy…….
“There will be a future AOD – of that we can be sure of. When asked by His disciples Christ mentioned the AOD as something that will be seen; in that it (whatever it is) will be “seen standing in the Holy Place”; it would be future, and required “understanding”.”
Now, keeping in mind that Jesus mentioned Absolutely Nothing about any Future Third Temple…………EVER……..Not Ever, in his ministry, and Not EVER in ANY PORTION of the Olivet Discourse.
Between the two following texts, which one PLAINLY Describes what Jesus said “when ye shall See the AOD STAND in the Holy Place”.
Dan 9
27 …………………(first portion of the text removed to eliminate preconceived ides about ANY timeframe association or person)……………………. and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Dan 12
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the Abomination that maketh Desolate SET UP, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
It’s always argued that these two texts refer to the Same Thing……but it is Not So.
The 12:11 ref is to the “Daily” Only….the word “Sacrifice” was added by the translators and was never part of the Original Hebrew Text.
The 9:27 ref of “Sacrifice and Oblation” is referring to the ATTONEMENT Sacrifice….and the WORD Sacrifice WAS in the Original Hebrew Text.
You may SPECULATE that the Wording is So Similar that they MUST be referring to the SAME Thing….but….you Only make an Errant Assumption based on (ONE)Preconceived Notions, and (TWO) the ACTUAL Original Words are VERY Different.
So then…..why would make these verses so Similar? To Confuse Us?
No my Beloved brothers and sisters……….Here’s WHY….”for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.”
Would you ALL forever Remember the following Very Important Observation and Point.
Look how close in Proximity the Sealing Up is Mentioned ALONG WITH the Words, “the Wise shall UNDERSTAND”, (as in, let him that Reads Understand)…………Can You SEE and Understand…..that the Similarity in Words between 9:27 and 12:11 Was INTENDED by God…………………..TO SEAL UP the Vision TILL…………the END……Until THAT TIME…the LAST 3.5 Begins.
Here again are these Verses together in closing…..as I said…..note how closely these three verses Work Together to Seal Up the vision.
Dan 12
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
LikeLike
edited this part….
“So then…..why would …..GOD……..make these verses so Similar? To Confuse Us?”
LikeLike
Dave Hunt’s book [ bless his soul ] “The woman who rides the beast”, points to the Catholic Church,ie Vatican City[ i repeat,…CITY ] as Mystery Harlot Babylon soooo well. Its a big thick book, but an easy,INTERESTING, read. However i think its in Zacheriah where they mention The Land of Shinar in connection with Mystery Babylon and the prophecy of a basket with something in it- geeze i wish i could tell you the details off the top of my head- but i need to refresh my memory on it- but it is incredibly fascinating to delve into and wonder what it means. the land of Shinar, the basket, and i believe theres mention of a metallic disk……….., does anyone know , better than i, what i’m struggling to refer to ? help!!!
LikeLike
sounds like your shedding new light here Tribber , pointing out the differences btwn the original and what words were added later on to…..mislead us. Something to consider and rethink about…..
LikeLike
@ Tony, well, I was bored one day, so I outlined Revelation and made a chart of all the beasts that are mentioned. There is the beast from the abyss that kills the two witnesses, the beast from the sea, the beast from the sea, the beast from the earth, and the scarlet beast with the woman sitting on it. Okay, so what do we know about all these beasts?
The beast from the sea:
-stood on the sand of the seashore
-has ten horns with ten diadems
-7 heads with blasphemous names
-resembles a leopard, a bear, and a lion
-derives authority from the dragon
-1 head is slain but is healed
-mouth speaks blasphemies
-has authority for 42 months
-will overcome the saints and every tribe and nation.
Okay, so the beast from the sea is clearly the antichrist.
Now there is the beast from the earth:
-has two horns like a lamb but speaks like a dragon (appears harmless, but isn’t really)
-exercises the authority of the sea beast
– makes people worship the sea beast (so clearly the false prophet)
-does miracles like calling down fire from heaven
-deceives by signs
-gives breath to the image of the sea beast
-distributes the mark of the beast
Okay, so this is all in the paragraph about the earth beast in Rev. 13:
11Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon.12He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.13He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.14And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.15And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.16And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,17and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.18Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.
Therefore, the false prophet is the one distributing the mark. This whole paragraph is about the beast from the earth, so I conclude that 666 is the number of the Earth beast, who is clearly the false prophet, although I understand there are reasons for other interpretations. However, in this paragraph, the author uses “first beast” to make it clear that he’s talking about the sea beast/antichrist, not the earth beast. In verse 18, he does not say “calculate the number of the FIRST beast.” Rather, he just says “beast,” which leads me to believe he’s continuing discussion about the beast in the current section, which is actually the false prophet.
Meanwhile, let’s look at the Scarlet beast. The woman, who is the great city, which rules the kings of the earth, sits on it. The beast she’s sitting on has 7 heads and 10 horns. (Sounds like the Sea beast, right? And we know the sea beast is the antichrist.) The scarlet beast hates the woman and wants to make her naked and desolate and burn her with fire. The scarlet beast eventually throws the woman off its back and comes into full power and rejoices.
Revelation 17:16: And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”
Okay, so here we have the image of a world power (the great city that reigns over the kings of the earth) that is keeping the beast under control until it burns her with fire and eats her flesh. Then the ten horns on the beast are free to give the beast their power so the beast can rule.
So, given all this information, my hypothesis is that the scarlet beast is the spirit of the antichrist which cannot come into power until the harlot is overthrown. Once the harlot is overthrown, the scarlet beast becomes known as the beast from the sea (it has the same 7 heads and ten horns). It is supported by the beast from the earth, who is the false prophet who distributes the mark. Finally, the beast from the abyss, I believe, is satan himself, who we know indwells the sea beast/antichrist at some point and is responsible for killing the two witnesses.
Thus, there are four different beasts mentioned, but three of them are various forms of the antichrist and one of them is the false prophet.
That’s my working hypothesis.
This is just me speculating. But that’s how I understand it.
LikeLike
Sorry, I see I wrote “beast from the sea” twice in the first paragraph. Sleepy today!”
LikeLike
i hope i’m gonna be turned into one of “the wise” who will be, in the know, understanding whats going on, and i trust that i shall be, and that we ALL shall be, as truth descends upon us and ascends within us! Thanks for sharing again , your wise counsel
LikeLike
Interesting Diane…….I’ve never done much study regarding the Beasts and Kingdoms……i’m kinda lost like a golf ball in a wheat field on those subjects.
LikeLike
Wow, Diane, you got to all that while you were bored! Good job,…now let me go over all that again! your nice and precise, and it makes me want to call him false profit, the dude with the money mark with his evil money mark plan. AMAZING, how could i have missed that?! and most others i know, have overlooked that ?! Thanks for sharin’
LikeLike
Hi Diane,
I wanted to share some ideas that have been discussed here over the past few years that might add some things to think about with your post above. No one here is claiming to have an exclusive corner on interpreting prophecy, but some things to consider based on our reading scripture as carefully as we can.
The first beast – the beast from the sea in Revelation. It is possibly not a man at all but a kingdom, the final kingdom of man. For comparison between the Beast from the Sea and another beast – see Daniel 7:23 – 24
The second beast – the beast from the earth, possibly the antichrist, the man of sin of Daniel AND also the “false prophet” that’s become so popular in end-times literature. And yes – I agree the number of the beast refers to antichrist/man of sin – and makes far more sin if the AC/false prophet are one and the same person aka the little horn.
The red beast- now makes a lot more sense in light of the 10 kings of Daniel and if the woman is riding on it right?
Something to think about – the second beast causes the world to worship the image of the first beast- to worship the government. It is possible that the antichrists deception is to cause the world to worship the kingdom he has set up, as if a human government could save them from whatever the dangers of the day are – war, starvation, poverty, crime whatever. He does his best to have the people put their hope of salvation into a man made thing (refer back to the tower of Babel for a far earlier example of this.
I have an idea about who Babylon is and who the whore of Babylon is. There are certainly two falls in the text the falling of Babylon the great and the rape of the whore of Babylon by the kings of the earth. First, Babylon the great- what was Babylon in history – the first great human made kingdom (starting in Genesis 10 with Nimrod son of Cush), the first wealthy financial and military power on the earth. The final fall of Babylon the great represents the collapse of the world financial system (the Babylon system, look at your money and the symbols used in banks and banking if you don’t think it’s Babylon). This also makes sense that the merchants would mourn. This also makes sense as to why there would be a Mark of the beast in order to trade – since a new beast centered economic system will rise up in the last days to replace the one destroyed, that will be totally under the control of the Antichrist.
Now the Second Babylon, the whore- it is all human created religion (all false religion). Kings and emperors throughout history have sought to control religion and used it to exploit and ensure the obedience of the masses. We can see that man-made religion started as far back as Babylon the first kingdom because we can see throughout the old testament the many people groups that came out of Genesis 11 and also mentioned in the next few chapters are idolatrous peoples who worshipped a variety of false Gods. Look at any man-made religion, the Catholic church, Islam, Hinduism, Mormonism, Talmudic Judaism – all of them seek one thing to control behavior and are frequently aligned with kings and kingdoms to provide legitimacy and consolidation of power and succession of power. The first man-made religion if you examine your Bible – came about in Babylon. The global powers today are working very hard to get these many religious systems to work together. We can see the tension between these false religions and the world governments most clearly today in Islam – where governments seek to partner with Islam while it seeks to dominate them and terrorize their people around the world. Other man-created religions are doing this/have done this but its not always as clear to point to (the many evils committed by the Catholic church are one example in history that is known to many here). My belief is that the antichrist will come to power in collaboration with these many false religions that at some point the relationship between the antichrist and his kingdom will break down – and the one that fornicated with the world will be destroyed as “all religions” are declared an intolerable evil that must be eradicated. This “all religions are evil” declaration will also give free reign to the final kingdom of men to make war on the saints as we know will happen from Rev 13:7 under the leadership of the second beast, the AC.
LikeLike
Rob,
You and I are definitely on the same sheet of music. Great analogy!
LikeLike
mr. baldy maybe you can explain your thoughts in some more detail.. so I can translate and study them? I think you have my emailadress
LikeLike
i don’t see how that could be too far wrong as it makes sound sense in a general way and i think also in a specific way,…….could it be a final “worship mother-earth” RELIGION, that ultimately surfaces? Nice formulation Rob,..WOW
LikeLike
…you know, a secular and a PRACTICAL religion, that is worthy of our alliegence – so that we can continue as a viable species. As in obey govt. rules and regulations,…Agenda 21 , reduce carbon footprint, be willing to make sacrafices[ie.,..give up rights to private property, etc] in the name of our physical survival we must adhere to WORLD GOVERNANCE, worshiping the Gaia Mother Earth like days of old/ mystery pagan/druid religion of old,..as there is nuthin’ new under the sun………….all the old things are returning, but Jesus will make ALL THINGS NEW!
LikeLike
admittedly i have to go back and slowly re-read all you have put forth Rob and also what you put forth Diane and Rick[tribber] and Vic and Baldy and Colleen, Shelby, Andrea……..man you people are what i was lookin’ for,……..and in my minds eye i can see sammy runnin’,…so eager and plumb full of enthusiasmos………….! Keep on keepin’ on brothers n sisters,….sam is still so ALIVE in my heart and in my memories and in my thoughts. As Alive and as real and as exciting as the love of God,…and the Promise of His Return, knowin’ that He’s-a-comin’- for us, to fully restore all that has been lost! There is no waste with God our Loving Father and in our deepest wounds – loves beauty finds a place to take root and grow. Blessen’s,……..now thats how Shelby says it!
LikeLike
Right Tony, a worship of self and of human accomplishment with the AC being the model of the “Super Man” or über mensch as the German philosophers called him is a likely “religion” pushed under the AC system. It is already evident in atheist and humanist philosophies. It sees practical expression in leadership with the rise of the so-called “technocrat”.
LikeLike
interesting,…as in man doesn’t need god because we are our own god.,…evolving,…becoming,…and Rob when you mentioned the rise of “technocrat”, well hey, God help us. I mean are you talking about transhumanism?. i’m gonna google technocrat
LikeLike
oh, its these technocrats that will push earth worship as we listen to their expertise and fall prey to their control by believing their lies. Al Gore and them, for example., and we could list name many others. I see we are not talking transhumanism, yet!
LikeLike
@Justasheep, oh yes, I definitely agree with you that the beasts are governmental and/or spiritual systems. Scripture makes plain that the horns are the rulers of the kingdoms that make up the beasts in their various incarnations. I suppose I am guilty of falling back on a shorthand way of referring to these organizational entities by their human ruling counterparts. The system and the leader are somewhat synonymous in my mind. I have not fully decided what real life entities correspond to which beast entities, and am doing further research. I do have more thoughts on the subject for later, but I’m about to be without Internet access for a week, so may not have the opportunity to post more.
Shoertribber, I understand what you are saying about “the daily.” There is some very interesting teaching by Rami Danieli floating around on the subject. Also some interesting teaching over at 119ministries, although I disagree with many of the teachings they have posted over there.
Finally, transhumanism is definitely a movement to watch. I am writing a novel around this theme at the moment. You cannot believe the tech that exists right now in the world, particularly in bio nanotech.
Anywa, sorry for typos–I’m mobile. Have a good night all!
LikeLike
just looking at the alex jones channel on youtube video as he is interviewing Katherine Albrite on the subject of the technocratic architechture of the NWO. This is for real and the further you get into the interview the more you get the picture. I’m glad you brought that word “technocrat” up Rob/sheep. Its going to get very bizzare as man with his technological wizardy continues to defy Our Father. / hurry back Diane
LikeLike
Hi Dianne,
Welcome 😉
I haven’t had the time to read { most } of the posts and look forward to doing that as time permits but was hoping to ask a quick question before you leave 😉
What do you believe the mark of the beast is ?
LikeLike
Hi Hisown1–I am not sure. I think that when the beast government rises to power, the world will be recovering from a time of chaos and re-organizing government structures on a global scale. (In my opinion, which is all speculation, this will arise out of the overthrow of the harlot). I hypothesize that the mark will be one of allegiance to a new order that also enables people to engage in electronic commerce in a cashless system.
1. It’s obviously a sign of allegiance, because you get killed if you don’t take it.
2. It’s obviously part of a cashless system because it’s impossible to buy or sell without it (which means cash, by definition, can no longer exist).
I don’t believe student RFID cards like they are using in schools right now are the mark (as in the case of Andrea Hernandez). I don’t believe RFID chips or hologram tattoos in their current form are the mark. I don’t think you can take the mark until the time of the beast or take it without declaring allegiance to the beast system (which will exist in a cashless society) and that time is not here yet (although the technology for it clearly exists).
Whatever this mark is, it will be something unique to this new beast system. It wouldn’t be something that already exists because such a thing would not indicate allegiance to the new system. Therefore, it won’t be an RFID chip or hologram tattoo in any of their current forms.
With all that said, I don’t think anybody needs to freak out about accidentally taking the mark of the beast right now, because the mark is part of a system that clearly does not yet exist. The sea beast / antichrist system is not yet fully in power, so at the moment, there is no such thing as the mark of the beast. If you want to get an RFID chip or a holographic tattoo right now, I think that’s a bad choice, but you’re not going to lose your soul doing it, and nobody’s going to kill you if you choose not to get one.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject.
LikeLike
Apologies to Curt- a couple of his posts about Israel, the EU and the status of the western wall got caught in the spam filter. I am not sure how – but I restored them to this thread.
-sheep
LikeLike