The 70th week revisited.

Comment by Vic:

This is a re-post. Feel free to comment on the 70th week subject as you feel lead by the Lord. God bless.

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Dan 9:24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

At the end of the 70 weeks transgression has to be finish and there has to be an end of sin. Prophecy and vision will also end. Clearly this cannot happen at the Lord’s return as there will still be sin in the millennium Kingdom. (Thanks to Mr Baldy for pointing this out). The 70th week may only end at the end of the millennium Kingdom when everything is made new and sin and death will be no more.

 Dan 9:25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Princeshall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

This count for a total of 69 weeks from the commandment to restore Jerusalem unto the Messiah who shall come.

 Dan 9:26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

After 62 weeks, the Messiah shall be cut of or killed, but not for Himself, but for us. Please note the importance of “AFTER”. It does not say that the Messiah will be cut off at the end of the 62 weeks, but AFTER the 62nd week is complete. Now let’s speculate a bit. Let’s say Jesus was born in the 64th week. Let’s say he lived his first 30 years in the 5 year weeks ending at the 69th week. When He started His ministry with His baptism, it marked the beginning of the 70thweek.

 His ministry lasted for 3.5 years, and then He was cut off/crucified.

 Now read the following verse in the light of the above mentioned.

 Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Can the covenant spoken of be the promised New Covenant between man and God, sealed by the Blood of Jesus? Did Jesus cause sacrifice and oblation to cease in the midst of the week? Let the Bible answer:

Heb 10:8-18  Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings andoffering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

So can it be that Jesus fulfilled the first part of Dan 9:27 and we will wait in vain for a stopping of sacrifice in the last days? If we read this Scriptures at face value, it is what is said.

But it does seem that Dan 9:27 has a dual fulfilment. Jesus Himself pointed to the second half of this verse:

Mat 24:15-16  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the  prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

 Mar 13:14  But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20-21  And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

So it seems like the clock of the 70th week was stopped when Messiah was cut off and made an end to sacrific0e after 3.5 years. Now the big sign for us to watch is the AoD that will start the last 3.5 years in the  prophetic 70th week clock again. It was always strange to me why Jesus never mentioned rebuild temples, 7 year peace treaties that got broken or a stopping of sacrifice as signs to watch. Maybe they were never meant as signs, but are teachings in error. We are in a very late hour prophetically, and many Christians do not want to listen to the warnings as they are looking for rebuild temples, 7 year peace treaties and stopping of sacrifice. The end may overcome them like a flood because they are looking for things that will never happen.  

Now I know many will say that according to Paul, the Antichrist will sit in the temple of God and for that the temple needs to be rebuilt. Here is the verse in question:

2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple (G3485) of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The word for temple in this verse is the following from Strong’s:

 G3485

Ναός   naos  nah-os’

From a primary word ναίω naiō (to dwell); a faneshrinetemple: – shrine, temple.

The word used for the temple in Jerusalem throughout the New Testament is the following from Strong’s:

 G2411

ἱερόν  hieron  hee-er-on’

Neuter of G2413; a sacred place, that is, the entire precincts (whereas G3485denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere): – temple.

Here is what Paul says about the Christian:

 1Co 3:16-17  Know ye not that ye are the temple (G3485) of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

The word for temple used by Paul is the same word used for the temple the antichrist will exalt himself in. Clearly then the antichrist will not sit in the Jerusalem temple (G2411), but will rather look to defile the real temple of God, the true Christian (G3485).

Now were does the 7 year ENP fit into all of this? Well, I still see it as an important marker for pointing us to the antichrist and the time we live in. The ENP did not start the 70th week. I do believe that Dan 9:27 has a duel fulfilment that points us to a 7 year treaty by the man of sin. He will only show his true colours when he gets power to continue for 42 months. 42 months is all that remain in the 70th week. Before the time he will remain hidden. I also think that we will only know for sure at the AoD event, when Israel is surrounded by the armies and he pitches his tents in Israel.

I am no scholar and I am open to correction. These are only my humble understanding of the Scriptures.

Wickus

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220 thoughts on “The 70th week revisited.

  1. Thank you Vic Wickus for re-starting this thread.

    I would like to re-open up this discussion by commenting on the discussion between Connie (Welcome to this most wonderful web-site Connie!); and Shorty – who have both made some very interesting comments concerning the 70th week, to say the least.

    It appears as if Shorty is saying that Christ has fulfilled 3.5 years of the 70th week, and 3.5 years remain. I don’t know if this is true or not, and I would like to have some Scriptural support to back up this theory. I have seen none.

    I also would love it if anyone can prove, (without assumptions please) that a 3rd Temple is required when the 70th week begins. I am also challenging anyone to prove that the confirmation of the Covenant with Many actually begins the 70th week.

    Thank you all…

    Baldy

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  2. Dankie Boetie 🙂

    Wow I can’t believe I missed this post before and am so blessed you have re-posted.

    I know that since the Lord confirmed these things ( what I shared in that personal e-mail with you in March 2010 ) it’s like the Lord is sending a ” strong delusion “on those that love ” not” His word but chose the doctrines of men over it.

    Vic it’s like this. As a EX- JW we can never go back to the ” Jesus is Michael ” or there is no ” heaven or hell” lie. It’s the unction of the Holy Spirit that assures our heart ‘s by the and blessing of ” knowing”. He being the One to instill this truth into our hearts and that’s why true worshippers worship Him in spirit and truth 🙂

    I love these two verses and can hold fast on these as He has ALWAYS proven to be faithful when asked for wisdom and understanding.

    1Jo 2:20 — But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

    1Jo 2:27 — But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    It’s fascinating how we tend to allow ourselves to be influenced by men’s ” teachings” as many base their end time eschatology and events around the oh so deceptive ” left behind” series and the innumerable collection of books and seminars that generate a vast amount of revenue. That right there should be a red flag to any discerning believer. Not to even touch the concern for the masonic undertones with a ten foot pole .

    It’s sad actually to witness just how much out thought process has been ” polluted ” by the very same process you and I came out of Vic. Wow none of us are exempt from being ” deceived….none! There is none as deceived as one being self -deceived right!

    God will choose their delusions – men deceived and BEING deceived in these days of great apostasy and doctrines of demons 😦 wow who would ever have thought,,,,wait Christ warned us that many will be offended and betray one another as the days are marked by great deception and falsehood .

    Isa 66:4 — I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

    Please forgive my ramblings,,,it’s past 5 am -time to hit the sack-Body clock out of sync 🙂

    “Many shall come in my name . . .” – Jesus Christ.

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  3. Hi Mr. B,
    you said..
    ” I don’t know if this is true or not, and I would like to have some Scriptural support to back up this theory. I have seen none.”

    First, just to quickly comment on the words of the sentence’s here quoted.

    1. You admit that you do not Know if Christ did or did not fulfill the first half of the 70th week. Admitting the lack of certain knowledge is a wise and very helpful practice.

    2. “I would like”, is an indication that you will invite, and not greatly resist such support or evidence; in other words, as you would invite and not greatly resist a friend.

    3. Support is kin to evidence, it is not absolute proof, but instead, lends to prove.

    4. “I have seen none”, is not entirely accurate when you really understand the distinction between the substance of evidence and proof.

    I believe these four points to be true, are they not?

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  4. my friend mr Baldy, it is very good for this discussion to continue, because I have still a lot to learn
    would you be so kind to send my your emailadres, so I can contact you if I have questions?

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  5. Has anyone looked into PPSimmons support of the trumpet judgements? He states we have already witnessed 1-5. The 3rd one being the one he first discovered. Wormwood translates to Chernobyl in some language I forget. Then he describes how the third trumpet fits that accident. Pretty believable and amazing from the way he tells it The first and second trumpets being the two parts of WWII – Euro and Pacific wars. I just heard it and I am beginning to investigate.

    I am assuming most of you have heard of PPSimmons.

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  6. Hi Agie95,
    It could very well be a type of fulfillment if prophecy is layered in nature…..I believe it is layered and multidimensional.

    consider this idea if you would…..

    These ideas are understood by comprehending the general yet intricate dynamics of the layering, compounding, and revealing of prophecy. When we take time to step back from our own personal Perspective and view prophecy from a much greater vantage point we can see things we’ve never seen before.
    We are not physically able to See beyond three dimensions, but God can, and when the Prophets Speak For God, they are not limited to a 123456789 law of progression of time, distance and physical space. They are Speaking For God from an Eternal realm where there are no such confined limitations as the physical first second or third dimensional observance.

    “God has only one meaning and fulfillment of prophecy”, that’s part of the general argument we hear. But I’m convinced otherwise and, vast amounts of evidence exists to support the layered and multiple fulfillment of God’s Voice to us.

    something to think about

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  7. in all honesty and no flattery intended, i think shorttribber is speaking deeper truth than most. really, there imo seems to be higher vision and wise insight, that is set apart from the views of most or all of anyone i have ever listened to w/ regards to prophecy. it ressonates in my mind and spirit and i am impressed and inclined to agree with his explanations. for now, anyhow. lets keep on ……. thanks tribber and everyone, i’m interested and listening. i read all 6 comments so far but i need to read what vic wrote to start this thing, as i darted to the comments right away

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  8. catapiller……………………………………………………….butterfly!, with death comes new life! The best is yet to come!! you can’t touch it yet, ah, but it can touch you!!! waiting on the Lord,…..what a thing to BELIEVE!!!! to be filled with Hope while despair disipates. night time fears,disappear. THANK YOU LORD, YOU MADE IT RIGHT, a reality centered in Christ. amen,…above all else, ABOVE ALL ELSE

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  9. It seems to me that part of the key lies within the verse — “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy PEOPLE and UPON THY HOLY CITY.” I would not describe Christ’s 3 and 1/2 ministry as punishment upon the people and the holy city.

    So a better explanation would be:

    The end of the 69 weeks brings you to the birth of the Messiah (which could be another reason why the Jews should have been looking for the birth of the Messiah but missed it.)

    “And after threescore and two week shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall DESTROY THE CITY AND THE SANCTUARY..”

    The destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad could’ve easily been part of the 70th week.

    *******

    Now concerning the Antichrist in the temple: If the #G3485 temple (From a primary word ναίω naiō (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple: – shrine, temple) means the body as a dwelling place for God, i don’t see any reason why it couldn’t also be a temple for the antichrist……not a physical body (although it could be) but a building, perhaps a moslem temple….. **especially the Al Aqsa Mosque**.

    Al Aqsa Mosque. I’m not saying, nor am I looking specifically for a Muslim AC. I think it just happens to be where he will sit.

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  10. Lord honor the search that is taking place here, let there be Light, give us understanding and Peace of mind along w/ vitality to press on towards reliance upon you and you alone. Any of this seems entirely possible Looking for a city,..it sure makes me wonder

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  11. Here ya go Looking……

    But when will we all SEE the abomination STANDING above where the holy of holies once was for what it is?

    When the Loser is cast out of heaven(literally)Rev12 and possesses the antichrist (Loser Jr.) then he (Loser Jr.)may………..give cause to……………establish that abomination as his holy of holies.

    And that may just happen IMO….and…..then…..it…..WILL………..be…SEEN…for what it is and the readers…..WILL……understand.

    For……..written on it (Dome of the Rock)are these abominable words……..”God has no son, God needs no son”……..translations vary a little but carry near exact meaning.

    SEEING……..SEEING………SEEING is the key to our understanding of the AOD…. PAST, PRESENT …. and FUTURE

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  12. Vic Wickus,

    I want to again thank you for posting this thread. I have been amazed at your insight as I have read your commentary, over and over again. What really sticks out to me is how you have mentioned that there might be a “dual fulfillment” in Daniel 9:27. Let me please add that you have nicely put all those verses together, and it really makes sense. I must admit that I didn’t see it like that the first time you had posted it.

    Shorty, you are correct in your questions to me. Let me say however that because I have mentioned that I have seen no verses that would indicate that Christ has fulfilled 3.5 years of the 70th week, does not mean that it is not true – it could be just a lack of understanding on my part.

    Dear Mathieu, my brother in Christ…..let me say to you that I have been dealing with chronic back pain, and I know that you emailed me some time ago – and I have not had the opportunity to respond. I believe it had to do with self-defense. I do apologize. My email is still the same: Rukbaldy@yahoo.com – I can’t seem to get away from that one (lol); but I prefer to use: mister_baldy@yahoo.com, as this is the one I use for all my Biblical correspondence.

    I must say that after reading the comments by Hisown, and using her comments in conjunction with this very nice presentation that Vic Wickus has so beautifully put together – I’m simply going to have to just completely empty myself of what I’ve been taught, and start over. As Colleen (Hisown) has mentioned, there is so much deception out there, that we must be very careful.

    In closing, again Vic Wickus….very very good comments. Sometimes when I have read things I don’t always get a clear picture at first, or as it relates to Biblical topics – sometimes God opens up my understanding, then it becomes clear. I’ve been praying for Wisdom. I’ve never been dogmatic about any particular view as it relates to End Time eschatology, but there are a few things that appear to be pretty solid. And that is the Church will experience persecution; there is a 3.5 year time period that is mentioned in which the coming Antichrist will reign; and the Church will be caught up in the air to meet Christ. As for the things that are not clearly understood – at least in my mind; I’m going back to the drawing board, and pray for wisdom and understanding.

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  13. Brother Tony, now I have to re-read my post to understand what you are talking about. 🙂 I have written this post almost a year ago and I have just re-posted just to start a new 70th week discussion.

    Praying for you Brother.

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  14. Hi Mr. B,
    That was a very good and genuine post…..Now then, you mentioned the following….

    “Shorty, you are correct in your questions to me. Let me say however that because I have mentioned that I have seen no verses that would indicate that Christ has fulfilled 3.5 years of the 70th week, does not mean that it is not true – it could be just a lack of understanding on my part.”

    I will post a few more links and a few verses to help you out over the next few days as time permits ok?

    Blessings to ya….and the whole family here 🙂

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  15. Good post Wickus, lots to think about. I have also seen this idea that Jesus’ ministry may have been for 3.5 years and correlates to the first half of the final 7. ASs Mr. B says it would be good to get some clarity on this, if it is a possibility.
    One point that I have also pondered is the “end of sins” which I always assumed means the that all of mankind is not living righteously in Gods Kingdom, either on earth or in heaven.

    I have also seen that the idea of Jesus ruling with an iron sceptre to mean that during the millennial kingdom a strong hand is needed because the nations are still wayward.

    I considered further possibilities after reading your post – the end of sins could be a reference to the crucifixion – maybe possibly, not really convinced, nevertheless, “It is finished”.

    Ruling with an iron sceptre may be needed even after an end of sins has been made, perhaps the nations still need a real re-education and an iron sceptre is needed to guide the sheep, perhaps its just a picture of strength to rule. Just chewing on these things..

    Havent been around much going through a bit of a tough time, in process of leaving our current church as I meet with a new pastor to try and convince him that following emergent church ideas is not a good thing. Tough battle, I have withdrawn my family from attendance.

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  16. Amen James, wow what a powerful statement on the “end of sins ” – It is finished!!

    Simple truth, I love that!

    Psa 25:14 — The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

    Eph 4:13 — Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    I don’t believe there is any scriptural ( verse and chapter ) “proof” that Christ fulfilled the first three and a hlf yrs of the 70th week ,OR that the 69th week stopped at His death, but this I do know, the Lord hides these things from the wise and prudent and reveals them unto babes. For such is the Kingdom of God.I love what He has shown me and I’m sticking to it ! laugh 🙂

    Blessed are our ears , for they hear (ed by sheep) 🙂

    And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it j is given unto you kto know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 lFor whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, nBy hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17 For verily I say unto you,That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

    James ( most ) of us here have had to make that very difficult move you mention and promise to pray for you and your loved ones my brother. We have to OBEY when He calls us out and I praise God for your courage and stand, that blessed me today:)

    Gal 1:10 — For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

    The Lord is calling us BACK to Him and to lay aside those things that have polluted our minds and silenced that soft gentle prompting of the Holy Spirit who DESIRES to show us God’s truth,,,not man’s 🙂 The word of God is made manifest in us – those that DESIRE Him and His truth alone.

    Prov 2 having almost a “prerequisite ” for understanding and finding the knowledge of God.

    1) Receiving His words.

    2) Inclining your ear to wisdom.

    3) Applying that wisdom.

    4) Asking /seeking Him .

    5) Crying out for His truth.

    6) Asking for His understanding.

    7) Desiring wisdom more than earthly treasures.

    Proverbs 2:1-5
    King James Version (KJV)
    2 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
    2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
    3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
    4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
    5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of
    God.

    I love that the Lord sees the HEART of man and knows how we long for those deep and secret things he has promised to show His own .

    Dan 2:22 — He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.

    I remember when I first came to this understanding I was asked ” do you think you are better than all the “scholars ” out there sweetie 🙂

    I love being a ” fool” for Christ 🙂 don’t you guys!!

    1Cr 1:27 — But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

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  17. Mr B.,

    Absolute proof is just not attainable regarding 3.5 years of Christ’s ministry going into the 70th week, I will concede that, however we must then look to reasonable evidence.
    Historical evidence is nearly unanimous that Christ did minster between a 3 and 4 year period of time.
    So then, we can look to a 3.5 year span of time as reasonable.
    We can of course look to what is already written and being debated in Daniel as another evidence depending of course on our understanding of verses 24-27.
    Then we have the following….again….I feel this is a very sound,real and reasonable evidence………from the mouth of Christ himself……observe..
    Here’s another interesting example to show a split in the Confirmation with many……..beginning with the Anointing of Christ and the start of His public ministry

    Luke 4
    18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he………. hath anointed……… me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
    19 To preach the ………..acceptable………. year of the Lord.
    20 And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and ……….sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
    21 And he began to say unto them, ……….This day………. is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
    22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph’s son?
    23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.
    24 And he said, Verily I say unto you,……………. No prophet is accepted ……………in his own country.
    25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up ………..three years and six months,……………… when great famine was throughout all the land;
    26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto ……….Sarepta,…….. [a city] of Sidon, unto a woman [that was] a widow.
    27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving ………….Naaman……….. the Syrian.

    Mal 3
    1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the ……..messenger of the covenant,……….. whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

    2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:

    3 And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

    Why does Christ mention the three and a half years the heavens were ….shut up? A reference to the timespan of His first appearing.
    Why does Christ mention Sarepta? it was a city known for it’s refiner’s of silver
    Why does Christ mention Naaman? It means agreement or agreeable and also (pleasing or pleasant)…….this is what is done when covenant is made….Naaman also agreed to not offer to Idols any longer but only sacrifice to the true God.

    see the connection?

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  18. Oh I love that Mr Shorty,,,,widows and lepers! Wow I just got it! I LOVE IT!!

    I ( think ) I hold onto the view you espouse too and came to that back in 2010 and shared that with Vic and a few others in a private e-mail. I believe Nonymouse tried express that on FP and asked some pretty difficult questions but did not get much of a response ( I miss her ) , she noted :

    “The “Pilgrim’s” Bible, has footnotes that hold that Christ fulfilled the 1st half of Daniel’s 70th week, with His 3 1/2 year ministry.”

    There seems to be a overwhelming desire in the body of Christ to dig deeper into Daniel 9 and lay aside any pre-conceived thoughts and ideologies , seeking the Lord to reveal that to us by His precious Holy Spirit.

    ( From e-mail discussion – 2010 )

    I personally believe that :-

    Christ Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant.

    And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel. Heb 12 :24

    For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. -Rom 11:27

    This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; Heb 10:16

    We are the Temple – Naos- 1 Peter 2 : 5 –

    Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

    If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are 1 Cor 3 : 17

    What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1 Cor 6: 19

    In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: Eph 2 : 21

    Does the 42 month tribulation period kick off when Jerusalem is surrounded. The Jews flee – this ? – http://www.presstv.ir/detail/157971.html ( Scripture confirmation in Dec ‘ 07 ? – ) I will send the – Mark 13 : 14 , Luke 21 : 20 appointed- time scripture confirmations e-mail to ********as he requested our discussion )

    Satan inhabits the man of sin- ( after he is cast out – once and for all – ) ( he still has access to the throne- accusing us daily )- And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. -Job 1

    Till no more place found for him- see his arrogance – in Isaiah 14 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: ( he is sitting on the throne in the apostate church already and has deceived them as he did when he caused the sons of God to rebel against the Lord.)

    There will be the the trampling of Jerusalem for 42 months.

    The protection of the Jews in the desert from Satan for 1260 days.

    The beast ruling / making war with the saints for the 42 month period.

    Christ’s second VISIBLE return and the setting up of His 1000 yr earthy reign.

    Satan bound for that period. Let loose for a little while to test the nations once again. –

    And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    Judgment –

    And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    New heaven and new earth.- And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

    Eternity.

    I do not believe anyone of us are ” preterist” in our eschatology thinking or that we adhere to the amillennialism or postmillennialism view…..

    Anyone is welcome to disagree ( as Connie says ) and if there is any error in my understanding then God has promised to reveal it! Speaking of which were are you Connie?

    Phl 3:15 — Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

    I love that!

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  19. Hi Hisown,

    “The “Pilgrim’s” Bible, has footnotes that hold that Christ fulfilled the 1st half of Daniel’s 70th week, with His 3 1/2 year ministry.”

    I have two of those Bibles now….:)…..Praise the Lord, both printed in 1608…I won one of them off ebay just yesterday!!!!! weeeeeedogies!!!!

    here it is 🙂

    http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages/showimage.aspx?gid=459024&image=597543712&images=597543712,597543754,597543783,597543820,597543892,597543960,597544013,597544125,597544168,597544257,597544320,597544367,597546258,597546338,597546411,597546474,597546535,597546637,597546670,597546728,597546784,597546819,597546856,597547195&formats=0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0&format=0

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  20. Coll, thank you for your words it means a lot to have this kind of support, really great.
    Agree with everything you said. This 3.5 years thing it comes off the page so simply now I remember defending the antichrist 7 year covenant against this idea.

    This church we have been going to was a sort of compromise with my wife and just needing to get us and the children to church regularly but things just aren’t right when their “Social Action” group gets to take the meetings and having met with the new pastor I am realising just how entrenched this post-modern thinking is.
    He lent me a book by Shane Claiborne, I took it reluctantly and as I suspected it was thinly disguised garbage. Anyway I’m going to meet up with him again as he finds my viewpoint interesting, I am just taking a stand for scripture and have come to the conclusion that a sola scriptura approach is the best way now. I mentioned that I used to only read Christian books that are over at least 50 years old as a rule of thumb but now just gravitating towards scripture alone which met with the response “how can you engage with current comment?” well there’s a million answers to that one! Not least of all The Living Word itself.

    Well I’m going to try and approach this one in love, being firm with the truth and uncompromising but I feel weak in some ways as I tend to always want to be friendly and diplomatic when sometimes the situation needs some tough talk. If you can Colleen would you pray that I am tough when I need to be? There are people struggling with all sorts of problems in the congregation and I can’t tolerate this anymore, powerless humanism! Ugh.

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  21. i love your heart james for the Lord and His Truth to be your bottom line. typical watered down stuff to make such a statement (mr. pastor)-amazing how people can think of the Bible as out of touch when God has always had his Finger on the pulse of everything! we know He holds everything together (including us good times or bad!). colossians chp 2 addresses exactly your concerns over “laodicea” james. may the Lord make you wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove brother.

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  22. Awesome discussion guys,,, I am blessed to see the standing up for truth, even in the midst of the apostasy taking place before our very eyes,,,,,please be refreshed in your spirits if you have the time to listen to the amazing testimony of a former occultist turned watchdog for the Lord named Johanna Michaelson as she describes in her exposé ,” The beautiful side of evil,” how we are to always stay on guard for the truth,even as many try lead even the very elect away from the truth!

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  23. James my brother, I wept as I read your words,,,,,, ” Shane Claiborne” ?

    The ” mystical ” practices that the ” church is embracing is so grieving to my spirit that I find it difficult to even begin to express these in words 😦

    The new ” thinking” is generated towards the ” 30 something” crowd and guess what..it’s working! Can you imagine where we will be in a few years from now if this is what is being fed to the kids of these parents…..I can’t handle the emotion of sadness I feel for where this is all leading too.

    My hubby and I watched a excellent expose on how deceptive these practises are and will post the link once it is approved 🙂

    I felt a heavy burden to pray for you today and did so,,,,,,please know that the Lord hears our pleas and is pleased when we bear each others burdens in prayer and comfort with the SAME comfort has comforted us with.

    Please know that I love you guys and thank Him daily for you all 🙂

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  24. Tribber, i want that there Bible. i’ll trade you for my copy of the dead sea scroll that i found in a cave over yonder!, on papyrus dude!! / all kiddin’ aside …WOW, 1608! Beautiful, good find!!! what a treasure, i can’t get over the looks of that ancient manuscript. thats a blessing come your way. thanks for sharin’ the pics,..it blows me away,really. Onward christian soldiers, gimme that ole-time religion, its good enough for me! This is all about the pearl of Great Price,…..i’ve got shivers running up my spine, and goosebumps. In the jingle- jangle mornings Lord, i’ll come followin’ you! Keep us posted tribber, tell us more about it,please. From the micro-cosmic creatures to the macro-cosmic flames,…His Love reveals the same,…MAGNIFICANCE, marvel after marvel, a wonder to behold,…BEHOLD YOUR GOD! Love to all, Hi Wickis/ Vic, n thanks for your prayers, as in THANKS! i pray for you too and all the nice people who are on this site contributing. We All Choose JESUS, amen!,……it all took place on the cross. The Centrality of the Cross, the crux of it all. / Open my eyes, that i might cry n fell the pain that you endured,….and let the tears that flow, bring water to my soul, that i might grow, closer, to you Allmighty Lord. Help us to further embrace it, to see more clearly, to love more dearly and to follow you more nearly, day by day,………with full realization of moment by moment, NEWNESS OF LIFE, in CHRIST, amen, AMEN,…..hi Shelby…where are you, miss you………………………

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  25. i’m gonna git that bible from you tribber! You really rock mister,…your love for Gods word with all consuming passion, using your TALENTS so well puts my sorry butt to shame. but i’m surrenderin’ to the Lord daily and praying and listening and learning. Thank you, brother. its me, tony …still typin’ wiff one finger, and still lovin’ EVERYONE,….esp. my doggie, SAM!, he’s the real mcCoy!, heart-throbbin’ love of my life. all we do every day is love,love,love each other to pieces. we put our faces in each others face, and we roll down big hills,just tumbling over each other,…..its a crazie love, so good! i thank the Lord for this truely WONDERFUL FRIEND. He came into my life during my year of JUBILEE, 3.5 years ago when i turned 50, and restored my youth, indeed. He took n confirmed a covenant wit me!!!

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  26. Hey again Hisown,

    “The “Pilgrim’s” Bible, has footnotes that hold that Christ fulfilled the 1st half of Daniel’s 70th week, with His 3 1/2 year ministry.”

    Did you know that All the reference Bibles printed up until about the 1850’s have very similar notes that reflect the same opinion on Daniel 9:27?

    Thanx primarily to Darby and the strict dispensationalist ideas promoted by him, Schofield, and Dallas Theological Seminary and the plethora of teachings that followed later, the masses now believe, IMO, a big lie.

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  27. Mr Short, is it possible to mail me a scanned copy of that footnote? I would love to put it on site. Here in dark Africa there is no way to get hold of a Bible like that. 🙂

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  28. Thanks Wickus for re-posting this, its immensely valuable! I’ve been re-reading Isaiah 61, well worth it in light of this.

    “For I, the Lord, love justice,
    I hate robbery [g]in the burnt offering;
    And I will faithfully give them their recompense
    And make an everlasting covenant with them.”

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  29. Coll, thankyou too for your prayers, your support is a huge encouragement and means more than you know. With regards to Claiborne et al and being in the 30 something crowd I’m not buying it i can tell you – looking forward to your link if it gets through!

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  30. Here ya go Vic

    http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/geneva-study-bible/

    I’ll post how it reads online and what the notes say here if that’s ok…

    Thus he could not content himself with any vehemency of words: for he was so led with a fervent zeal, considering Gods promise made to the city in respect of his Church, and for the advancement of Gods glory.

    9:24 Seventy p weeks are determined upon q thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the r transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    (p) He alludes to Jeremiahs prophecy, who prophesied that their captivity would be seventy years: but now Gods mercy would exceed his judgment seven times as much, which would be 490 years, even until the coming of Christ, and so then it would continue forever.
    (q) Meaning Daniels nation, over whom he was careful.
    (r) To show mercy and to put sin out of remembrance.

    9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from s the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven t weeks, and u threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    (s) That is, from the time that Cyrus gave them permission to depart.
    (t) These weeks make forty-nine years, of which forty-six are referred to the time of the building of the temple, and three to the laying of the foundation.
    (u) Counting from the sixth year of Darius, who gave the second commandment for the building of the temple are sixty-two weeks, which make 434 years, which comprehend the time from the building of the temple until the baptism of Christ.

    9:26 And after threescore and two x weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but y not for himself: and the people of the z prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    (x) In this week of the seventy, will Christ come and preach and suffer death.
    (y) He will seem to have no beauty, nor to be of any estimation; ( Isaiah 53:2 ).
    (z) Meaning Titus, Vespasianss son, who would come and destroy both the temple, and the people, without any hope of recovery.

    9:27 And he a shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to b cease, c and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
    (a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.
    (b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.
    (c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

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  31. At Shorty,

    Again Shorty, and others who are studying End Time Prophecy……

    If you are saying that Christ fulfilled the first half or 3.5 years of the total 70 weeks of the time that is allotted – and you further provide Daniel 9:27 as your proof; then the latter half of Daniel 9:27 makes no sense, “IF” you are saying that the “he” mentioned is Christ.

    Please let me explain……..

    If you are saying that Christ ended the sacrifice by His death on the Cross – thus fulfilling the need for blood sacrifices, and grain offerings – I guess then I can see your point. But, reading the rest of the Scripture that you have provided with this “Pilgrims’ Bible” explanation – then how can you continue to say that the “he” in the remaining verses is Christ, when it goes on to say that “on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate” ?

    I must say, that the more I read Vic Wickus’ explanation of how he has originally posted the 70th week, the more I am inclined to believe that it has a “dual meaning”. I say this because when I read Daniel 12:11-12 – there is somewhat of different meaning than that of Daniel 9:27, and in reading Matthew 24:15 it requires the “understanding” to interpret this particular Prophecy.

    Please understand me, as I attempt to explain a “possible” “dual meaning”. (Vic Wickus please correct me on any different interpretation that you may have meant) First, we must understand that the Prophecy presented in Daniel 9:24-27 mentions both Messiah, and Antichrist.

    My explanation is as follows – with questions (As I don’t know):

    Daniel 9:27 could mean that it is the Antichrist who confirms a covenant with many for a 7 year period. However, it could be Christ who puts an end to sacrifice and offering with His death at the Cross. The further mentioning of: “on the wing of abominations who causes the desolation” is again the coming Antichrist, (it has to be) as it is the abomination itself that causes the desolation.

    I say this because in reading Daniel 12:11 it states that: “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.” (Note that is goes beyond any 3.5 year period as well – if we were to consider that the first 3.5 years have already been fulfilled.)

    Notice that Daniel 12:11 states that “daily sacrifice” is taken away. Question is what is “daily sacrifice”? This appears to be somewhat different from the “sacrifice & offering” mentioned in Daniel 9:27. Is this “daily sacrifice” something that occurs at the Wailing Wall? I mean what’s going on that makes it “daily”? This appears to be a significant difference than just a cessation of sacrifices, and not to mention offerings?

    Also…..Jesus Himself refers to the AOD mentioned by the Prophet Daniel. (Matthew 24:15) Is Jesus referring to Daniel 9:27, or Daniel 12:11? Are the two chapters mentioning two different events having the same, or similar meaning, but at different phases?

    And before we have those who want to bring up what Paul has mentioned about the coming Antichrist “taking his seat in the temple” as being the AOD; lets first understand that Jesus mentions that the AOD is something that “stands” in the holy place. Not “taking a seat in the Temple” – as most who try to explain away the Pretrib Rapture doctrine do. And in my very humble opinion they attempt to add credence to their theory, by erroneously adding this particular verse of Scripture. By the way, (this is mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:4) – describing what the coming Antichrist will do. Daniel 12:11 further states that the AOD is “set up”. Again, this is a BIG difference from the coming Antichrist “taking his seat” in the temple. Isn’t something that is “set up” also referred to as “standing”? Just asking…….

    Based on Scripture, I personally see no evidence that what Jesus has described as the AOD, in Matthew 24, as the coming Antichrist taking a seat, or his seat in the temple – further “showing” himself as God, can be united – unless this is some End Time “hologram” type event showing him seated in the Holy Place by way of video, that has to be stood, erected, or will “stand”.

    Wow folks………this indeed requires “understanding”.

    In closing….does Daniel 9:27 have a dual meaning?

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  32. Think about this…. The Antichrist could also be many… Meaning there have already been several Antichrists, and could it be a movement that is infultrating the church, and also the temple setting itself up in the Holy… I wander if to some extent this hasn’t already been fullfilled….

    Berryblueberry

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  33. Hi Mr. B,
    I only have time now to address this one for now……
    you said.
    “If you are saying that Christ fulfilled the first half or 3.5 years of the total 70 weeks of the time that is allotted – and you further provide Daniel 9:27 as your proof; then the latter half of Daniel 9:27 makes no sense, “IF” you are saying that the “he” mentioned is Christ.”

    It only seems to be in conflict…..the next part I’m going to post is somewhat difficult to follow but just follow it slowly thru and you’ll understand.

    This is the beginnignof the Daniel 9:27 thread i provided a link for earlier, I’m not sure if you had a chance to read it…..again, it takes time, you will not comprehend it if you read it though quickly….you must make word comparisons and strongs concordence number comparisons as you go.

    Here it is…….go very slowly and let it sink in.

    “Not again”! you may say………….we’ve been under that old barn hunt’n eggs forever and for the most part we all come out with the same ole eggs……….true but not in every case.

    I want to focus on something completely different about it……only one portion of it mainly.

    here is the best word for word i could find from Hebrew directly into English of the section for discussion.

    and upon as wings (3671)abominations(8251)desolation/astonishment (8074) even until (5704) end (3617) and that decreed (2782) shall outpour (5413) on the desolator (8074)

    It is quite well known that this is a very obscure portion of scripture and has been translated or rather I should say interpreted many different ways.

    But why really in light of this passage?
    ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
    Mathew 23
    36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that ………….killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee(abomination8251), how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her]…………….. wings………(as wings3671)……………, and ye ………..would not!…………(abomination8074)

    38 Behold(astonishment8074), your house is…… left unto you (and that decreed2782)……..(even until5704)desolate.

    39 For I say unto you,(decreed2782)……… Ye shall not see me henceforth, ………..till……….(even until5704) ye shall say, Blessed [is]………. he that cometh(shall outpour[5413] on the [8074]desolator) in the name of the Lord.

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  34. There is a correction i need to make on the last post Mr. B,
    The word and number comparisons are difficult enough without my having put a wrong number in one part.

    In the above quotation, in Math. 23:37, at the end, after the words “and ye would not!”,
    the number for “abomination” should be 8251.

    So it should read like the following…….

    and ye ………..would not!…………(abomination8251)

    sorry about

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  35. Here is the next section for your reading Mr. B.
    from D927T@FP (Daniel 9:27 thread at Fulfilled Prophecy).

    Now i know that who the “He” is makes or breaks what all believe about 9:27……but I just want to ask what justification there has been to add so many interpretive extra words into what was never part of the known Hebrew text……..
    Jesus decreed the desolation……they who killed the prophets are the desolators and abominators along with all unbelievers and their future head, the Loser antichrist.
    Did the desolators gather under His wings or did they place abomination/astonishment upon His outstretched wings?

    Did they place a blasphemous crown upon His head….did they place nails in his outstretched wings……was not the abominations of the entire world placed on Him?

    Sure He allowed so willingly………….but………..it was still placed upon Him.

    He was rejected and slain and abomination upon His wings…………..because they would not be gathered to Him.

    And still they reject Him………..until their gathering………even until the END.

    Now below are only three examples of all the ADDED words and ADDED translators bias that has contributed to so much error regarding the original meaning of Daniel 9:27.

    New International Version
    He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

    New American Standard Bible – updated edition
    “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

    New Living translation
    The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him.”

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  36. hello shortribber. i would like to send you a link that i have some questions about so wanted to run it by you but need an email address. it is talking about a timeframe that is pretty much in keeping with your understanding so was wondering what you’d make of it. would post it here but wanted your take on it beforehand ok? thanks.

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  37. well i was pretty sure you would not post it and certainly am unable to know of another way myself so i’ll post the link here and when you have opportunity you can comment if you feel that you want to. whatever you have time for shortribber. thanks. it’s called daniel unsealed—very interesting and follows along lines that i have been looking into myself.http://119ministries.com/daniel-unsealed/ —-wondering feedback from anyone else to for that matter….

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  38. Hi Andre,
    I do remember now going to that sight and listening to sections of it before….can’t remember when, few months back i think.
    It does seem to me that there is a great degree of truth being expressed there.

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  39. thanks for getting back to me shorttribber. was wondering your take on it and the timeframe it is referring to. (the aod is very close according to this presentation). and of course anyone else with a thought on it would be helpful too because i think it opens up discussion. it is pretty straightforward and presented well but as we must do-and as these folks emphasized–we must test everything by the Word of God as The Final Authority. i did make sure that it’s statement of faith is the Biblical Gospel before i proceeded.

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  40. so……shorttribber or anyone else who has seen it and who may have a response–what do you think of the video posted proposing that the aod could begin shortly after purim (2013) and detailing the 1260 days and 1290 days in a pattern? some definite food for thought in my estimation at least. i know i had to watch the whole thing to see it take shape…….maybe there is something here—or maybe not–but nonetheless we watch.

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  41. Where do I look in the menu to find that particular video or portion of the video Andre?….my time runs me a little short, LOL, no pun intended in connection with my user name.

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  42. Hi again Mr. B,
    I hope you were able to soak in the section i posted in answer to your first basic question.

    Now I’l pastin another section to answer this…..2nd question

    “The further mentioning of: “on the wing of abominations who causes the desolation” is again the coming Antichrist, (it has to be) as it is the abomination itself that causes the desolation.”

    Answer::::::Jesus decreed the desolation……they who killed the prophets are the desolators and abominators along with all unbelievers and their future head, the Loser antichrist.

    Let’s look now at another portion I’ll post here that I posted last night at FP regarding the same issue……

    watching wrote:
    Here is how this verse was written in the Septuagint.

    9:27 καὶ δυναμώσει διαθήκην πολλοῖς ἑβδομὰς μία καὶ ἐν τῷ ἡμίσει τῆς ἑβδομάδος ἀρθήσεταί μου θυσία καὶ σπονδή καὶ ἐπὶ τὸ ἱερὸν βδέλυγμα τῶν ἐρημώσεων καὶ ἕως συντελείας καιροῦ συντέλεια δοθήσεται ἐπὶ τὴν ἐρήμωσιν

    And here is how this verse translates in the English:

    And he strengthens the convenant/testament with many week one and in the half of the week is lifted/taken up my sacrifice and drink offering and upon the holy place abomination of desolation and until the time of the end/completion the end/completion will given upon the desolate/desolation.

    Ok, very interesting, and sure, I do count the Septuagint as being very reliable, as you said, why else would Jesus and Paul quote from it as they did.

    Now then… just take a See at what words replace the word “cease”. No need for further sacrifice now…why….the Law of Blood Sacrifice was “lifted”. And Christ was/is the Living Word, the Living Spirit of the Law, and Grace was “Lifted UP” above the Law of a temporary Sacrifice and Covering of sin and in doing so Lifted and Caused to Cease the written Law and Blood Sacrifice.

    Jesus said “if I be lifted up”, He spoke not only of a literal lifting up on the Cross, but also what he did would be received as His sacrifice being Holy and lifted Up above the written Law of sin and death and would “draw all”, unto him to the newness and Spirit of the Law, and that Spirit of the Law is Grace and Mercy.

    Where ever Jesus went as a man in the flesh, THAT is where the “HOLY PLACE” was. There was not a place Holier than where He was present.

    And the MOST HOLY PLACE was the Cross where the Abomination of this world was PLACED ON HIM…..there and then.

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  43. hello again mr. short! if you look at the video (daniel unsealed) and begin at the 34 minute mark you will see what i’m referring to. it blows my mind. from there on to the end of it especially you can see some details that explain quite a bit if it is really saying what i think it is. actually it made me go back and watch the whole thing again when i saw that part because it looked like it was falling into place like puzzle pieces. not hard to grasp or tortured to make the math work! i do not insist that this is absolute but it gives me pause to dismiss it offhandedly. i just know others who are much more keen in their insights with the Word could help me understand more. i do not insist that i have to know everything anyway-clearly the Lord reserves the right to leave to mystery whatever He sees fit to but there are many things He would love for us to know as He has made provision for much to be understood-we are not in darkness who walk in the Light so won’t be caught unaware–Jesus did say let the reader understand so that is what i am attempting to do as i know many here are of that heart and mind too. time is at a premium and we do not want to be distracted by the unnecessary and unhelpful. i pray that the Lord will open my mind to hear Him speak through His Word and let go of any remaining preconceived things i have in my mind–lies sure take a root in the fleshly mind so i want the Light by the Spirit of God to unfold the Truth to me.

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  44. So we are told to “keep the Law” by adhering to the Torah then only will we understand?

    Hang on a second here guys is this not ” Judaism” ? parts of he Hebrew roots movement where the gentiles are now Jews ? that Christ’s death on the cross did not end the Mosaic Covenant and we are ” constrained ” to keep the ” law”?

    Wow I watched a few min of two clips and both the guys remind me of the elders in the JW organization. They even comb their hair the same way and dress like each other. Their monotone speech and their lack of joy is somewhat sad and oh so legalistic.

    The Lord gave me this verse back in SA and a sticking to it 🙂

    Galatians 6:12-14
    12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

    13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

    14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

    (James 2:10) For whoever shall Keep the whole Law; and yet ‘Offend’ in One point; he is Guilty of ALL.

    (Galatians 2:16) knowing that a man is “NOT” justified by works of the Law, but through Faith in Jesus Christ; even we believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be Justified by the faith in Christ, and NOT by works of the Law. For ALL flesh will “NOT” be justified by works of law.

    (Titus 3:5) NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us; through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

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  45. I don’t agree with that at all Hisown, I mean, I’m in agreement with you…..i only looked at the prophecy items and not to the Judaism aspect of it…..that is a caution flag.

    Remember though, It’s not we ourselves that will come together in the unity of the faith, it will be God’s doing alone.

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  46. Andre, I found this 119 video very interesting. Thank you for posting it. I am not bothered by it’s reference to torah, I don’t see Christians abandoning Torah as it is a rich store of wisdom. But we are freer in many ways than the Jews who trust in Torah and so will be judged by it. The wisdom of Christ fills in the skeleton of Torah to give us a far more complete understanding than could be afforded by law alone. Nevertheless, leaving that, one has to also acknowledge some “leaps” of faith in coming to their conclusions, the chief of which seems to be that Christ is referring to a reconstituted church as the temple rather than to a structure. I have no problem understanding that as a possible interpretation, but I am not convinced it is an iron clad one. But one must acknowledge the exquisite preciseness of the timelines, is it would seem, way beyond coincidence,…and verging on
    breathtaking. Actually it made me laugh,…only God could pull that off. Wow He is awesome. Anyways much to thing upon Andre’. Thanks again.

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  47. thanks for responding folks. i very much agree nkosazana. just because some are coming from the messianic background (flavor) does not mean they do not believe in saved by Grace through Faith alone. i looked and saw that is their statement of belief (Jesus said if you love Me you will keep My commandments) but that does not mean it is a legalistic thing (it’s a Love thing just like Jesus said amen?) i hope (for their sakes) that is their understanding too but i’m just keeping it simple here just going by what is presented not trying to read more into it. i did not think this joyless or any other extreme-just straightforward-but do your own homework in prayer and study which i appreciated. test everything is the right challenge in the face of so many seeming dotted i’s and crossed t’s that did look pretty impressive but more time will unfold what Scripture says so we’ll see if it works out on more than paper……..their eschatology is not jw. i did not gather so much though about the church and the temple part because i thought more the meaning was Jesus when He Reigns will be establishing that ez 40-48 scenario Himself. and of course i really do not know and do not know many that really address that portion effectively. Jesus did say do not swear by the temple–maybe because He knows only He can really make that meaningful when He is here–i do not know quite how all that goes either frankly—but i am giving them the benefit of the doubt while i just wait for more from the Lord. it is not a legalism thrust in the message in my opinion and the eschatology is absolutely fascinating. made me sit up and take notice! what is going on currently in the world may be almost to the boiling over point and much can come together prophetically very quickly–maybe 2013 will see the great tribulation begin……………………………………

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  48. “what is going on currently in the world may be almost to the boiling over point and much can come together prophetically very quickly–maybe 2013 will see the great tribulation begin”

    yep

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  49. Hi Mr. B and all,
    Have a look at this…..

    Seems to me that after all the historic and most accurate translations we have being the Masoretic, Septuagint, Geneva, and King James texts and manuscripts, the best arrangement of Daniel 9:27 B possibly could be written….and this is only my humble and trembling before God opinion.

    ……and upon, as wings, is placed, abomination,astonishment, and horror causing desolation, and he that decrees desolation shall make desolate and pour out that decreed until the consummation of the desolate.

    Her is a list of how the word “wing/wings” (Strongs #3671) is used.

    Exodus 19:4 KJV
    Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself.
    Read Exodus 19 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
    Exodus 25:20 KJV
    And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
    Read Exodus 25 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
    Exodus 37:9 KJV
    And the cherubims spread out their wings on high, and covered with their wings over the mercy seat, with their faces one to another; even to the mercy seatward were the faces of the cherubims.
    Read Exodus 37 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
    Leviticus 1:17 KJV
    And he shall cleave it with the wings thereof, but shall not divide it asunder : and the priest shall burn it upon the altar, upon the wood that is upon the fire: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.
    Read Leviticus 1 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
    Deuteronomy 32:11 KJV
    As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings:
    Read Deuteronomy 32 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
    Ruth 2:12 KJV
    The LORD recompense thy work, and a full reward be given thee of the LORD God of Israel, under whose wings thou art come to trust .
    Read Ruth 2 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
    2 Samuel 22:11 KJV
    And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly : and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.
    Read 2 Samuel 22 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
    1 Kings 6:27 KJV
    And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house.
    Read 1 Kings 6 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
    1 Kings 8:6 KJV
    And the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD unto his place, into the oracle of the house, to the most holy place, even under the wings of the cherubims.
    Read 1 Kings 8 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
    1 Kings 8:7 KJV
    For the cherubims spread forth their two wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubims covered the ark and the staves thereof above.
    Book of the Bible | Most relevant search result
    Exodus 19:4 KJVYe have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself.Read Exodus 19 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view Exodus 25:20 KJVAnd the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.Read Exodus 25 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view Exodus 37:9 KJVAnd the cherubims spread out their wings on high, and covered with their wings over the mercy seat, with their faces one to another; even to the mercy seatward were the faces of the cherubims. Read Exodus 37 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view Leviticus 1:17 KJVAnd he shall cleave it with the wings thereof, but shall not divide it asunder : and the priest shall burn it upon the altar, upon the wood that is upon the fire: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD. Read Leviticus 1 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view Deuteronomy 32:11 KJVAs an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: Read Deuteronomy 32 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view Ruth 2:12 KJVThe LORD recompense thy work, and a full reward be given thee of the LORD God of Israel, under whose wings thou art come to trust .Read Ruth 2 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view 2 Samuel 22:11 KJVAnd he rode upon a cherub, and did fly : and he was seen upon the wings of the wind. Read 2 Samuel 22 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view 1 Kings 6:27 KJVAnd he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house. Read 1 Kings 6 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view 1 Kings 8:6 KJVAnd the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD unto his place, into the oracle of the house, to the most holy place, even under the wings of the cherubims. Read 1 Kings 8 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view 1 Kings 8:7 KJVFor the cherubims spread forth their two wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubims covered the ark and the staves thereof above. Read 1 Kings 8 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
    1 Chronicles 28:18 KJV
    And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight; and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out their wings, and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD.
    Read 1 Chronicles 28 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
    2 Chronicles 3:11 KJV
    And the wings of the cherubims were twenty cubits long: one wing of the one cherub was five cubits, reaching to the wall of the house: and the other wing was likewise five cubits, reaching to the wing of the other cherub.
    Read 2 Chronicles 3 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
    2 Chronicles 3:13 KJV
    The wings of these cherubims spread themselves forth twenty cubits: and they stood on their feet, and their faces were inward.
    Read 2 Chronicles 3 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
    2 Chronicles 5:7 KJV
    And the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD unto his place, to the oracle of the house, into the most holy place, even under the wings of the cherubims:
    Read 2 Chronicles 5 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
    2 Chronicles 5:8 KJV
    For the cherubims spread forth their wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubims covered the ark and the staves thereof above.
    Read 2 Chronicles 5 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
    Job 39:13 KJV
    Gavest thou the goodly wings unto the peacocks ? or wings and feathers unto the ostrich?
    Read Job 39 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
    Job 39:26 KJV
    Doth the hawk fly by thy wisdom, and stretch her wings toward the south?
    Read Job 39 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
    Psalm 17:8 KJV
    Keep me as the apple of the eye , hide me under the shadow of thy wings,
    Read Psalm 17 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
    Psalm 18:10 KJV
    And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly : yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
    Read Psalm 18 | View in parallel | Compare Translations| Interlinear view
    Psalm 36:7 KJV
    How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.

    Ya think the Abomination MAY have been…….IS…….WILL BE……….PLACED…. ON ……the ……. MOST HOLY PLACE ?

    SEE Folks?…………………can we…….SEE IT YET?

    Remember where that abominable Dome ………was/is…..PLACED? Right where the Ark of the Covenant sat?

    That has on it WRITTEN……”God has no SON! God needs no SON!

    Let the READER………………….understand.

    Please let us understand Lord,please open eyes to See.

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  50. Shorttribber, just read your post , letting it sink in will consider this seriously, amazing bible passage research thankyou.

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  51. thanks shorttribber. to co-inside i have been reading in the last few weeks about the foundation stone on temple mount. there is some controversy about exact location (some reseachers have said the place of the dome of the spirits location). from temple mount.org. info-the hebrews believed it is the rock that God formed the whole earth around. (the navel of the world). God tethered Himself to earth right there where He Gave His Son no matter what the devil says that God has no Son-denying Jesus Christ came in the flesh-the abominable lie. the man of sin will want to do his counterfeit best to openly refute that alright……let the reader understand–yes! everything will happen around and on that certain piece of ground of the ancient past – the has been – the is – the will be. it will see more abomination yet before all is said and done……………………………………..i tell you what—God sure knows how to write a story!

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  52. 1Cr 2:2 — For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

    I’m sorry guys, the Holy Spirit would not release me of the burden I felt over the link posted and after seeking the Lord on WHY the red flag, I did a little digging.

    Please know Andre that this is not directed at you my beloved sis 🙂

    On the page posted I found a man by the name of ” Bill Cloud” and what he was referring too as the ” THIRD DAY” . I had to use the ” search this site ” option and still couldn’t find the article I was searching for until I found it at another source.( The clip didn’t stream on the link you provided Andre and that is why I was led to search it elsewhere.) Praise God I found my” why” on the “red flag alert” from the Holy Spirit and am released from the burden 🙂

    Guys, please what is going on here, if we are not careful we too are going to fall from our own steadfastness !! The reason I was saying these men reminded of the JW elders was the TONE they used, not what their doctrine was 🙂 ye know the , ” sheep know His voice” kinda tone 🙂

    Please take the time to prayerfully read this article though and take note of the buzz words – ” Manifest Son’s Of Glory, revival , restoration, great revelation, something hidden is about to be uncovered, prophets and apostles, global dominion “…..etc etc.

    Wait these are those that will KILL us thinking they are doing a service to God, yea know the ones ones that REFUSE to SUBMIT to this GOLBAL SPIRITUAL AWAKENING!

    I’m deeply grieved in my spirit that this is being prompted here under the guise of a ” time -line”…and how subtle this came into the midst of us, wow my heart can’t take the ” these men crept in unawares ” slip. Where are the watchmen sounding the alarm over this ?

    Here is a small copy/paste and pray that the Lord will open the eyes of those that have eyes to see.

    Basically, the “Manifest Sons of God” doctrine teaches that the Body of Christ will attain global dominion through the perfecting of the saints under the guidance of latter-day prophets and apostles. The teaching explains that this “perfecting” will be during a time of great revival, unlike anything the world has yet seen. The revival will come as a result of the Church being led by these apostles and prophets in defeating demonic spirits through spiritual warfare, prayer and fasting. The spiritual warfare is conducted through intense worship and praise, identifying strongholds, rebuking demonic powers and binding territorial spirits. This, they believe, will lead to an end-time harvest of untold millions won to Christ.

    The Revealing of the Sons of God

    By: Bill Cloud

    http://scatteredseedministries.org/GuestCommentary/The%20Revealing%20of%20the%20Sons%20of%20God.htm

    Gal 4:16 — Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

    I will be found in my prayer closet!

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  53. Hi Shorty,

    I must say that you have provided A LOT!

    After reading what you have provided, you correctly say: it is the “He” is what makes or breaks what all believe about Daniel 9:27.

    Now, in mentioning that, I have to respectfully disagree with your interpretation. Yes, there are some parallels mentioned in the 3.5 year period – which is often spoke of, but as yet, I am not convinced that Christ already fulfilled 3.5 years of the final week. There is a gap – absolutely no doubt about that. The question then becomes is the remaining time a 3.5 year time frame, or is it a remaining week?

    In the natural, or plain reading of Daniel 9:27, most translations have the covenant with many being “a” covenant that shall be confirmed or strengthened, implying that it is a covenant that is already in place. So the question becomes (at least to me) that if the “he” mentioned is Christ – then why would our Lord have to “confirm” or “strengthen” any covenant – which is an agreement, to anyone? Meaning, why wouldn’t He be consistant with Scripture, in that He would “Fulfill” the covenant? (As you have mentioned in the Scripture you have provided in Luke 4:21)

    I don’t know if I can buy your interpretation concerning the AOD as well, as you mention this:

    “Did they place a blasphemous crown upon His head….did they place nails in his outstretched wings……was not the abominations of the entire world placed on Him?
    Sure He allowed so willingly………….but………..it was still placed upon Him.”

    And this:

    “Where ever Jesus went as a man in the flesh, THAT is where the “HOLY PLACE” was. There was not a place Holier than where He was present.
    And the MOST HOLY PLACE was the Cross where the Abomination of this world was PLACED ON HIM…..there and then”

    Please correct me if I a wrong Shorty, but you seem to be saying that the AOD occurred at the Cross and will again occur at some future point, which appears to be where Jesus was crucified? And you have identified the Cross as the “MOST HOLY PLACE” ? Interesting……..

    You also make this statement:

    “Absolute proof is just not attainable regarding 3.5 years of Christ’s ministry going into the 70th week, I will concede that, however we must then look to reasonable evidence.”

    I love your candor Shorty, and I agree, which has led me to re-evaluate things as they relate to End time Prophecy, and take it from a more literal aspect. I guess we can all spiritualize, or make allegorical views of Scripture to make our various theories work – which admittedly I have been guilty of myself. I will not think to rule out other views such as you have provided – without just cause. I am grateful for you, as you have obviously put a lot of time and efforts into your studies. I appreciate all those who have a love for Gods word – especially End time Prophecy.

    In closing, and I am certainly not dogmatic about my views. But after reading all that you have provided, I still believe that Scripture indicates that there will be a future 7 year period in which the coming Antichrist will be the one who does the “confirming” of a covenant that has been previously put in place. And in reading Daniel 12:11; I am now convinced that it, used in conjunction with Daniel 9:27, does not two separate sacrificial meanings. There appears to be a continuous time period in which the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the AOD is set up of 1,290 days – this of course goes beyond the 3.5 year period, and appears to work in conjunction with the week that the confirmation or strengthening of the covenant with many is in place.

    If you say that there only remains a 3.5 year period, then I would like to know how you explain Daniel 12:11-13, as well as the other questions that I have proposed? This particular Scripture alone has been an Achilles Heel for many.

    I hope that I haven’t sound mean spirited towards you, or have sounded insensitive to your incredible work. Thanks Shorty!

    Baldy

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  54. Hi Mr. B,
    Here is some answers to correct a few misunderstandings you have.

    You said
    “So the question becomes (at least to me) that if the “he” mentioned is Christ – then why would our Lord have to “confirm” or “strengthen” any covenant – which is an agreement, to anyone? Meaning, why wouldn’t He be consistant with Scripture, in that He would “Fulfill” the covenant?

    The Covenant “already in place” was the Abrahamic Covenant, and Christ “Confirmed it”……BY…..Making the New Covenant.
    Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
    17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was……. confirmed…… before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
    18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

    Christ’s “Confirmation” of the Abrahamic Covenant by the making of the New Covenant is in Perfect Agreement with Absolute Truth. I can not imagine how anyone Disagree.

    the second misunderstanding of what I said was this now,
    you said…
    ‘Please correct me if I a wrong Shorty, but you seem to be saying that the AOD occurred at the Cross and will again occur at some future point, which appears to be where Jesus was crucified? And you have identified the Cross as the “MOST HOLY PLACE” ?

    No, no….the future AOD will not occur there. Let me explain first of all WHAT the Holiest of Holies was and REPRESENTED or was a TYPE and SHADOW………………..OF.
    The Ark of the Covenant was Representative and a Shadowing Type of the and Actual, Real, and Presence WITH God. So, the undeniable truth that the “Actual”, “Real”, and PRESENT God, was, When and Where Christ was Physically PRESENT.
    Now, I’m not saying at all that the future AOD will be WHERE Christ was crucified, no,no.
    The Holiest of Holies in the Real and Spiritual sense is in Our Hearts as believers. But the Holiest of Holies on THIS EARTH…..Physically is still the Temple Mount where the Ark of the Covenant rested in the Holy of Holies of the Temple. Right WHERE that Ugly Abominable Dome sits TODAY!

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  55. As far as Daniel 12 Goes, Chap 12 speaks ONLY of the Daily and Chap 9 speaks of the Atoning Sacrifice, huge, Very Huge difference.
    The prophecy was sealed by Daniel Mr. Baldy, and by using Similar phrases and times is how he “sealed” it …..IMO.
    The last 30 days of Daniel and even the 45 days that are attached at the end will be IMO when the Wrath of God is Poured Out on the Desolate.

    So, Daniel 12 is no “Achilles Heel” to my position, it only strengthens it.

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  56. Shorty,

    What you have not done in your presentation is present how Christ actually confirmed the Abrahamic Covenant. If you are attempting to apply Daniel 9:27 to this, and Christ’s subsequent death on the Cross then I would have to disagree. The plain reading of Daniel 9:24-27 clearly identifies two individuals – being Christ, and the desolator.

    As far as your interpretation of Daniel 9 and 12 concerning the sacrifices – I guess this depends on which translation you are using. This all goes back on how one interprets as the “he” which is mentioned.

    I am in no disagreement with you that Christ is the “Confirmation” of the Abrahamic Covenant, in that He “Fulfilled” the law, this is far different than “confirming” a 7 year covenant. In Matthew 5:17, Christ states that He did not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets, but to FULFILL. Christ’s confirmation of the Abrahamic Covenant is eternal. It seems to me, that there has been a misapplication of Scripture when using Daniel 9:27 to describe the “he”, by applying it to Christ’s death on the cross – which by the way is mentioned in Daniel 9:26 – with the “he” who is responsible for a 7 year confirming process which has an end. Christ’s Kingdom will have no end.

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  57. Mr. B,
    The translation does not matter really, the “sacrifice” was added in the text in Daniel 12….it was NEVER part of the original Hebrew, that does matter.

    As far as the Eternal New Covenant in Christ….I’ll paste this below..

    The “Everlasting Covenant is everlasting, not seven years long”, that’s the objection I’ve heard repeatedly. Yes it is, and I am aware of that but just because the covenant itself is everlasting does not mean the CONFIRMATION of the EVERLASTING COVENANT must be everlasting also.
    This short example should help explain the difference between the confirmation and the covenant itself…….
    How long does it take to shake hands or sign a document? If we CONFIRM an agreement via handshake or signature it will only take a limited amount of time, but what we AGREE ON (COVENANT) ON may last many, many years, or for the remainder of our lives.

    *********Now here i will repost the entire section on the Confirmation of the Covenant********

    Christ confirmed HIS portion of THE covenant while on earth, and for the joy that was set before Him, ENDURED the cross (Heb 12:2), He is the AUTHOR and the FINISHER of the FAITH. Faith IS words CONFIRMED by ACTION. Christ our Lord is the WORD OF GOD CONFIRMED by ACTION.
    The TESTIMONY of Jesus (the New Covenant) is God’s WORD CONFIRMED by His ACTION. We (Jew and Gentile) alike are beneficiaries of Christ’s three and a half years of PERSONAL ACTION on earth, a CONFIRMATION He AUTHORED and a CONFIRMATION He will FINISH through US during OUR three and a half years of ACTION. ACTION that will GLORIFY the AUTHOR because we will overcome by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB and by the WORD of OUR (HIS and OUR) TESTIMONY.
    HE will FINISH the CONFIRMATION of THE COVENANT by the ACTION of HIS BODY and we WILL possess the KINGDOM.

    He will FINISH the CONFIRMATION of the “COVENANT WITH MANY” (Mark14:24)
    24And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many
    The “Everlasting Covenant is everlasting, not seven years long”, that’s the objection I’ve heard repeatedly. Yes it is, and I am aware of that but just because the covenant itself is everlasting does not mean the CONFIRMATION of the EVERLASTING COVENANT must be everlasting also.
    This short example should help explain the difference between the confirmation and the covenant itself…….
    How long does it take to shake hands or sign a document? If we CONFIRM an agreement via handshake or signature it will only take a limited amount of time, but what we AGREE ON (COVENANT) ON may last many, many years, or for the remainder of our lives.
    I hope that will satisfy the objection and now we can move on.
    When the great tribulation begins, Christ will again take ACTION through His Body (the Church) to CONFIRM that He is the AUTHOR and the FINISHER of the FAITH. At that time (Daniel 12:1) We will learn the difference between FAITH in Christ and the FAITH…..OF…….Christ.
    The faith OF Christ is of this kind, I WILL NOT SIN and I WILL DO the WILL of HIM Who sent Me. A week or so back I was about to start typing this and I heard via another prophecy forum about some strange new doctrine (of devils) that we will all little by little gradually change our vile bodies into glorious incorruptible bodies, stop sinning and live happily ever after in our brand new godbodies. Well it caused me to pause and delay writing “the confirmation” because I became concerned people would somehow connect what I’m sharing here to that New Age (old age) vomit.
    The I WILL not sin ACTION that will be made possible by Christ that I fully expect to occur before He appears will be HIS DOING, not ours and it is marvelous in our eyes. Some of what I expect to transpire during the CP “confirmation period” does not effect the timing or in anyway affect the validity of STPW “shorttrib/prewrath”, or should it be just STP…..I don’t know.
    PROOF of the POWER of God, that is what will occur during the CP…………PROOF of God’s PROMISES. The ACTION of God and the overwhelming POWER and PRESENTS of God in our members. He will CONFIRM us unto the END. The separation from the true and the false, the wheat and the tares, the sheep and the goats, the wise from the unwise will CONFIRM us and PROVE us.
    The separation will PROVE the Word of God and power of His Christ to the ungodly and those who sleep in the night………………..go ye out to meet Him soon and do not slumber. Ready your lamps and fill up your vessels with oil……..A light on a hill can not be hid….stand on Mt. Zion with your lamps full. The Hill of the Lord is as the hill of Bashan, an High Hill as the hill of Bashan.
    The kingdom of God was literally present in Israel at the moment of Christ’s baptism when His ministry began, immediately after his baptism he was driven by the Spirit into the wilderness and went into a synagogue on the Sabbath day and read from the book of Isaiah and “sat down”. Christ began at that moment to fulfill this passage(Mal 3:3) The FIRST Parousia is what Israel and the earth was experiencing during Christs personal ministry during the FIRST 3.5 years of Daniels 70th week.
    The SECOND Parousia is what Israel and all the world will be experiencing during the LAST 3.5 years of Daniel’s 70th week. The FIRST half of the “Confirmation of The Covenant with MANY” was a WORK of FAITH by Christ to fulfill (in part) the PROMISE (Covenant) of God to Abraham. The Mosaic Covenant followed AFTER the Abrahamic Covenant and is thereby SUBSERVIENT to it. The Mosaic Covenant SERVED to show us what sin is and what blessing is. The Mosaic Covenant is what could be considered a portion of the Abrahamic Covenant because it taught us death to ourselves and OUR WORKS to life in Christ and HIS WORK.
    When the AOD occurs the second Parosia of Christ BEGINS………and culminates at His Physical coming in the clouds at the Seventh trump after 3.5 years plus maybe a few unknown number of days of the last 75 days spoken of at the end of Daniel 12. Christ will again “sit” and Judge during that LAST 3.5 years of His CONFIRMATION of the COVENANT. He will again “sit” as a refiner, as a separator of the sheep and the goats when He comes (parousia) in his KINGDOM. He will separate the false swearers from truth tellers and the wheat from the chaff, He will sweep the floor of His House. He will try the hearts of men when He is present (parousia) at His Kingdom. He will measure HIS TEMPLE with the measuring staff and plumline of TRUTH, HE will measure with His two witnesses Joshua and Zerubabel……..those WHO HAVE and SHARE the SAVLATION TESTIMONY(Joshua) of Jesus and who were BORN in BABEL(Zerubabel).
    When the AOD occurs and antichrist the Loser is cast to earth, Daniel 12: 10 and 11, the Kingdom of God and the power of His Christ will fill His two witnesses Johsua and Zerubabel (144,000 and the Church) and the Last Half of the CONFIRMATION with MANY will commence. The “Spirit of prophecy” and the “knowing of the Spirit of Truth” will bring the Body of Christ, the Bride, into perfection and readiness to receive the Son and we WILL BE a “chaste virgin”, a “bride without spot or wrinkle or any such thing”.
    Christ will CONFIRM HIS WORD and HIS PROMISE and the world will know who are His and who are not. We will RECEIVE from Christ the FAITH…………OF………CHRIST. WE will do as He did and love not our lives to the death. Just as Christ WOULD NOT sin………..we WILL NOT because GOD will WORK in us and He WILL…..CONFIRM us until the end.

    1Cor 1:
    6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
    7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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  58. Mr. Baldy,
    I was not going to enter this fray again, as I do not agree with the theory presented here either and debating it had merely become wrangling, which the Lord has told us not to enter into, but I thought I would just offer some insight into the 1290 and 1335 days (found down at the end of this).

    I am not sure of whether the covenant that is confirmed is one or both of the following: the one that antichrist initiates or the confirmation of the covenant mentioned that God would grant 490 more years of His direct dealing with them as a nation to bring them into righteousness (not Abraham’s covenant). I used to only believe the first, but find the second idea, that the covenant referred to is the seventy weeks, and it is being reconfirmed that He will give them the full 70 weeks by giving them that last missing week after the 2000 year break between the 69th and 70th week being just as valid.

    I believe that the 70th week is yet to start, and unlike others here, I believe there will be another real temple, the one John is told to measure along with the altar in Rev. 11:1-2, while he is told to not measure the courtyard area as it and the city will be trampled by the Gentiles (I think only a small temple building and the altar will go up next to the Dome of the Rock based on Ezekiel chap. 8-9, which is why the courtyard is trampled and not part of the temple complex) until the forty-two months of antichrist’s reign is complete, which is when all Israel will be saved (when Christ returns and the fullness of the Gentiles comes in). I also do not see the antichrist as sitting in the temple, as in the hearts of men, as if the temple is the Christian’s body and antichrist is sitting in their hearts, they – by logical deduction of this interpretation – have ousted Christ and replaced him with antichrist in their hearts, which I do not believe is what is meant. If they rejected him, he would not be sitting in their hearts, would he? To sit in their hearts means they have put him there. And I believe that the AOD is a real event at the temple, as while Luke might mention armies surrounding the city, which is what some here say is the thing which tells people to flee, Matthew and Mark do not mention the armies at all, and yet the people in Judea are supposed to see something from these two narratives that tells them to run to the mountains. That cannot be an invisible happening in the hearts of men. It has to be a physical event and since the armies are not mentioned in either gospel, it cannot be the armies.

    Also as in Daniel 12:11, as it says that from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away there will be 1260 days, and Dan.11:31 says that he will come to Jerusalem and take away the daily sacrifice (this is first of all a description of what Antiochus Epiphanes did, and second it is the foreshadow of what antichrist will do – it is one of the passages to which Christ referred us in Matthew 24), it is clear to me that the temple he sits in in Thess. is a real temple that has been offering real sacrifices that he stops, as that is what is described in Daniel, but that is my opinion based on a literal reading of all the Scriptures. I realize that most here will not agree with me and that is fine, so please don’t anyone feel the need to take me to argument over this. I’m not going to respond and wrangle. We all are entitled to our own opinions. I have studied this in depth for the last three decades, having had to abandon everything I was ever taught. So while I am open-minded, I find too many flaws in the arguments presented here to let them change my mind.

    As to the 1290 and 1335 days, the countdown for all three the 1260, 1290, and 1335 all start at the same day, the AOD. The 2 witnesses prophesy for 1260 days also starting at that same time. The two witnesses death occurs at the time the sixth trumpet is finished. How do we know this? Because the fifth trumpet is the 1st woe, the sixth trumpet is the second woe, (Rev. 9:12) and the last (7th) trumpet is the third woe. Notice in Rev. 11:14 that when the 2 witnesses die we are told that the second woe is over and the third woe will come quickly. That means that they die just before the last trumpet or third woe sounds, so the last trump occurs after the 1260 days are over. At that point, the vials, which are the seventh trumpet and God’s wrath (Rev. 11:18) occur in the 30 days after the 1260 bringing us to the 1290th day when we are basically told it will all end (Dan.12:8 “what shall be THE END of these things?” vs. 11 – “And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.”) The reason for the blessing on the 1335th day IMO is that this is the day the sheep and goat judgment of those who somehow have survived the entire seven years is over and those who make it into the kingdom are blessed, as not only do they make it in, but the millennial temple will be sanctified and restored for sacrifices to again begin and the millennium will commence. This will coincide with Hanukkah making it a holiday that is fulfilled twice, just as were all the feasts days God gave Israel. Once in a foreshadowed way, and once in a perfect way. It will also be as other events that weren’t feast days that happened twice, such as the first and second destruction of the temples fell on the same exact day, and Antiochus’s abomination of desolation is the foreshadow of antichrist’s abomination of desolation.

    At least you have another opinion here to consider.

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  59. Shorty,

    Thank you for your time. I will respectfully have to agree to disagree with your assessment that Christ fulfilled 3.5 years of the 70th week.

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  60. Hi Connie,

    I want to thank you for your comments.

    You really do bring up some excellent points. As a matter of fact, your points are the very reason why I have to empty myself of any preconceived ideas concerning the 70th week, and get back to the basics, in that I believe that we have to take Scripture at a more literal view when understanding the End Times. Although I am unsure whether or not there will be a literal 3rd Temple, Scripture seems to imply that there will be.

    In viewing the ENP(I) theory, I believe that I have added perhaps a sensational view in applying what is occurring today in order to make the theory work. I want to be clear that I have not given up on it, but I do have to “check” myself, in order to keep things in it’s proper perspective. Most of us here were (are) looking at it hard, as it is the only 7 year “confirmation” process in which a man literally rose from 10 Nations; is associated with the number 666, and set the motion in place.

    As far as some here who may believe that the “armies surrounding Jerusalem” – and the fact that there may be no literal 3rd Temple…..well, I don’t think that any of them, to include myself were ever dogmatic about those points, and I’m sure that you have hurt no one’s feelings by disagreeing. It is good to disagree, especially when it is respectfully done, with very valid points being presented. We were (those of us who have not let the ENP(I) theory go) just simply attempting to apply what appears to be the fulfillment of prophecy in modern terms, to what is in Scripture – and I will continue to do that until it can totally be ruled out.

    I will look into your theory concerning Daniel 12:11-13, as again, you make some very valid points. It is one of the more valid explanations that I have seen concerning this mystery.

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  61. hi Hisown and everyone. just know that i take not one thing personally. i am thankful for anything people here offer for an opinion as it is helpful to have several counselors (according to the proverbs) so i am open-not hard formed on an opinion (mine or otherwise) 🙂 i know some of the names of folks that are bad teachers but certainly not all. i know there is a fleshly mindset that thinks it does God a favor to bring in the kingdom–that is deluded—because it is not by might , nor by power, but by My Spirit says the Lord (from zechariah). whatever can be gleaned from the video or frankly whatever should be dismissed i leave to the Lord to show me and the discernment the Lord gives others is welcomed in my mind. we are getting so close to more and more Light coming to us as prophectically things take real shape–that will prove and disprove anything we are looking into at this site-so like all of you i wait. let the Word of God Itself speak and my heart hear is my prayer. (staying tuned with you…………….) God bless His Body as we seek the Truth to follow amidst the barrage of lies in this age of the anti-christ spirit.

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  62. Connie well done. Thanks for your contributions. I agree that date keeping will get way lots easier when we have the AOD. Then and only then can we truly know the lay of the land. Still I must say how good it is to fellowship in this place with other Christians who truly simply want to understand what God is saying to each of us…not to win, or to triumph,..just to understand. And God will “lead his dear children along”. Nkosazana

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  63. Titus 2
    The Teaching of Sound Doctrine
    1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
    2 that the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
    3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behavior as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
    4 that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
    5 to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
    6 Young men likewise exhort to be soberminded.
    7 In all things showing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine showing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
    8 sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

    I so wish I could have studied prophecy for the “last 30 yrs”…wow that’s impressive, I was still wet behind the ears 30 yrs ago . I praise God for the past 19 yrs of being born again and no matter if I spend 6 hrs a day in His word, I still haven’t scratched the surface of wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 🙂 Rom 11:33

    Phl 3:12 — Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect:

    Why all the disagreements if we all drink from the same spirit ?

    I recall as a JW my preacher dad would mock the ” born-again( ers) that they could never agree on anything and sadly after I became saved this was the first test of my faith as I witnessed the ” disharmony ” and the un-Christlike behaviour and lack of love among many, not to mention the unforgivingness ,,,,why is that? wait that’s rhetorical.

    Shorty if I may, do you believe that the ” loser” being cast ( Rev 9 ) and the AOD event run hand in hand and kickstarts last 42 mon trib ? From what I see (?) in your comments you seem to believe we are on the brink of them both? If you say yay, then know I’m with ya 🙂

    Also ( in a prior discussion ) there was a beautiful point being made about Elijah being sent to the house of Zarephath ( the widow ) now this being more precious to me than ever as I was widowed at the very young and vulnerable age of 29 yrs old and had known the ” reproach ” of my widowhood which has now been taken away – praise God !

    I also love the analogy of the ” leaper” humm much like this -1Cr 4:13 — Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

    Why would the Lord send Elijah to her ( if it were not for a dual reason for us to understand later in the appointed time ) as you noted the city ( Sidon ) where she lived and the name thereof meaning “REFINERY”.

    So we have John the Baptist a fulfillment of Elijah, preaching the same message of REPENTANCE and the coming of the Kingdom of God that will be proclaimed 1260 days by the house of Judah and the house of Israel- the two witnesses?

    Interesting is that Sidon has another resident , the harlot Jezebel, most intriguing and almost a foreshadowing of the harlot in Revelation and the ” tormentor’s ” of the elect ?

    The Lord has allowed many Jezebel’s into my life (and Ahab’s) and now praise His name for them as they were chosen by Him not only to persecute and hate me without cause but to give me the beautiful opportunity to glorify the Lord God as I witness His awesome justice and righteous indignation . It sure is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to those that trouble His own amen and amen.

    What’s that again about offences? Oh yeah it must needs be 🙂 all part of the refining process I guess – I love that!

    Mat 18:7 — Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

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  64. Hi Hisown,

    “Shorty if I may, do you believe that the ” loser” being cast ( Rev 9 ) and the AOD event run hand in hand and kickstarts last 42 mon trib ? From what I see (?) in your comments you seem to believe we are on the brink of them both? If you say yay, then know I’m with ya”

    Absolutely correct.

    I’m glad you’ve noticed the beauty of those other references from Luke, and a nice addition , your comment about spirit of Jezebel.

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  65. Ahh Shorty yes Rev 12 sorry and Isaiah 14 🙂 war in heaven right . It’s like we are feeling ( arggh I don’t like using that word ) the ” affects” here in the ” groanings we have in our spirit.

    Rev 9: 1 and 11
    And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

    Rev 9:11 — And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

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  66. Thank you Nkosazana. I didn’t realize that some people still thought that a possibility. There have been several 7 year agreements in the past few decades and each time people get very excited, but they never pan out. A great many of the prophecy scholars and teachers have since moved away from thinking the EU is the 10 horn federation of the AC, especially in light of the division of the world into 10 regions a few decades ago. Others look to an Islamic countries league based on Daniel 7. Guess we’ll have to wait and see.

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  67. Connie, concerning the ENP(I); honestly, if one were to rule this theory out without considering that it is still in effect would simply be a bit hasty, and a bit unwise, in my very humble opinion. Likewise, it would be unwise to rule out that there is a possibility that Christ has fulfilled 3.5 years of the 70th week. I just happen to disagree with Shorty’s assessment of how he has presented it, in that I don’t believe that Christ is the “he” in Daniel 9:27.

    Prophecy is a very difficult subject. There are several things that still boggle my mind. They are:

    1) Why has Christ Himself when speaking of the End Times referred the readers to the Prophet Daniel – further mention the AOD; then require that the reader have understanding?(Matthew 24:15)

    2) Why does Paul make mention that the coming Antichrist will be revealed prior to the gathering of Believers to Christ; and identify this man as one who will display himself as God in the “Temple” – is there, or will there be a “literal” Temple?

    3) Why is the coming Antichrist given 3.5 years to reign, which is subsequently the same time period that Christ Ministered on Earth; the time that the two witnesses prophesy; and the time that the “woman” is nourished in the wilderness – is the 3.5 year period so significant that is bears special mentioning?

    4) Why is it that when Christ read the prophecy of Isaiah 61 – stating that He had fulfilled Scripture on that Day; closing He the Book before the entire prophecy was completed in verse 2 – is this indicative that His 3.5 year Ministry was about to begin?

    5) What is the meaning of the 1,260 days; 1,290 days; and 1,335 Days mentioned in the Book of Daniel; and it’s relation to the 70th week?

    In closing, I’m not ruling anything out as far as any “road sign” that may be significant to the Coming of our Lord. I really believe with all my heart that the next event that we will know with certainty is what Christ has pointed to Himself….and that is the AOD. Other events may or may not be seen.

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  68. I guess I have trouble seeing how an agreement that was in effect in 2007 could be the covenant if 5 years have already passed, but then I can’t quite reconcile some other things being presented here either. As said before, I cling to a literal, chronological understanding of all of it, so I come to different conclusions than others. You (and everyone else here) are of course entitled to interpret it any way you believe is correct. I guess everyone just needs to keep studying until they can reconcile all the Scriptures together so that no verses are “difficult”.

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  69. “In closing, I’m not ruling anything out as far as any “road sign” that may be significant to the Coming of our Lord. I really believe with all my heart that the next event that we will know with certainty is what Christ has pointed to Himself….and that is the AOD. Other events may or may not be seen.”—-i think this in particular that you said mr. baldy hits the nail on the head. that event will answer very many of the questions we are presently asking. (and i think it will be soon—sooner than many think………)

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  70. Amen Andre no wonder the ” foolish virgins” miss the whole event till the very end…but then again it’s too late by then anyways.I could never figure that one out till lately.

    “Midst”..I love that word,,,so mysterious and oh so misunderstood 🙂

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  71. it is certain that our redemption draweth nigh! the thought is quite overwhelming at times for the sheer wonder of it all. as i keep a watch for my Bridegroom i am thankful for the kindred spirit of others longing for Him too (why i so love this site and all of you). it is a true blessing to me to keep company with hearts who want to be about our Father’s business. i had the privilege of leading a dear lady to Christ yesterday after church. watching the Holy Spirit grip her heart with His Conviction and show her the Savior’s Forgiveness was utterly precious. oh to see that Miracle over and over and over again before we are called Home. may we all stay tender to the Lord’s leading to be available to the need around us-our lamps filled with the Oil of the Holy Spirit and our hearts ready to share the Good News–the Very Best we know—–Jesus………..

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  72. I guess that there is varying opinions on exactly how or what starts the AOD. One thing that I am certain of, and that is the fact that we are in the Last Days. The AOD appears to happen without warning, and sudden destruction seems to follow, which causes those in Judea to flee to the mountains – leaving everything they own, except the clothes on their backs.

    So if anyone thinks that there will be a temple in place, (and I’m not ruling it out); but one must consider that prior to the AOD – which comes by surprise; that the “beginning of sorrows” precede it. They are: wars, rumors of wars; nation against nation; famines, pestilences, and earthquakes all over the place.

    I believe that the AOD, the next event, will catch many by surprise.

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  73. just want to sound this out if i may—–the statements and questions you pose really cause me to wonder that too mr baldy–what will give israel the “political capital” to be able to stake their claim to temple mount once again and who will grant it? (new found “respect” in the defeat from God to their enemy neighbors?) and will they actually get to build it or set up a makeshift version of it first once they get “his” permission? (and think that person the “one” they can trust but then find out they are betrayed?) i think in rev 11 the dividing up (the measuring rod reference) of temple mount is to placate the “politically correct” crowd with the anti-christ calling those shots. the “abominable” practice of carving up temple mount to the “gods” of this world seems to me like something mr politically correct himself (solana is called the “squarer of circles”) would get out his ruler and do doesn’t it?….and would stand there in that Holy Place of God to stick his finger in God’s eye before the whole world?———-just thinking out loud everyone————-just don’t know do we?—-but it appears in my feeble understanding-that things happening now (war in the air) could be leading directly to that next event to kick off the massive tribulation that the Bible says is coming-yes i’m afraid-catching many by surprise…………………….God will show us who are watching—-He has promised.

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  74. wow, you people have neurons- a -firing in the brains! and in the spirits.too!!! i have been looking at what appears to be a deep look at the debate between pre-trib and pre-wrath positions. Its interesting,….i didn’t realize that it could get this interesting!

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  75. Yes Tony……wow, I feel that I am addressing myself, as my name is Tony too (lol)…but nevertheless, things at this point are very interesting.

    To Andre’ : You raise a very interesting point concerning Israel, and having the “political capital” in order to stake a claim on the Temple Mount. Someone here, I believe it was either Jackie (I don’t know what name she uses here, if any); or Colleen (Hisown) sent an email addressing this very issue. I wish that I sitll had it, as it relates to the point you have just made. However, I don’t know if the coming Antichrist will have a relationship with Israel as most expect. If the ENP(I) is the real deal, then it only includes Israel…perhaps this same understanding could apply to any future 7 year deals made with “Many” – meaning: That it is only including Israel as a condition of a “Neighborhood” type policy, or Covenant with Many, because of war and economic conditions World Wide.

    I firmly believe that the thing that we have to be careful with in our watch, is just as Jesus mentioned – and that is not to be “DECEIVED”. This whole Antichrist, Israeli relationship type: “Covenant with Many” is a thing of mystery in and of itself. We know from Scripture that the coming Antichrist will come to Israel. How he carries out his mission, as far as his relationship and/or promises to them remains subjective. I question why he would move to Israel in the first place – unless, it is a condition of some form of peace and stability – and that by way of the fact that WAR has, or either will be occurring. I pesonally believe that we have that condition now, as the Muslim Brotherhood is causing total unrest in the entire region. A condition(s) such as this could bring about the AOD.

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  76. “Remember though, It’s not we ourselves that will come together in the unity of the faith, it will be God’s doing alone”—this is a statement by shorttribber from earlier in this post. it seems as though there are so many twists and turns throughout the journey into the prophectic understanding we are all in pursuit of. there have been truths half-truths and some outright lies along the way as we have been watching & buried in some unlikely places and truth found among some people “unlike” us yet in this same pursuit too amen? and God has His Reasons to allow it to come to us with all that tangle…………..i think it is so that we must rely upon Him as the Final Word on any given subject that is brought to the forefront for our discerning to grow us in Grace. when we all have the “lockdown” in and have “cornered the market” on Truth we will be—in heaven! yay! we know it is up to us individually to discern from the Lord but in His Grace He has provided us each other (even as we at times disagree). reminds me of Jesus walking through those judean hills with that ragtag bunch of disciples and He was the “glue” (except for judas who chose to be unstuck) holding together a group of unlikelys because He is the One able to Unify just like shorttribber said. we are careful with many things-and should be-but i for one am glad to be among all of you as we learn more about Grace with and from one another than even the prophecies we seek to understand. sometimes it is not how much or how little ya know but what ya did with what ya do know. so thank you all for letting me tag along-and speak freely and learn here with you—this is another wonderful place to work out our salvation and it is by faith here cause i ain’t seen hide nor hair of any one a ya’s yet! (in heaven i bet mr baldy will have a head full of flowing hair but i’ll still know he’s our baldy!) i love you folks in the Love of Jesus Our Lord. (i miss vic but one day we won’t have to miss anybody either-Praise God!!!)

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  77. Mr. Baldy you said you believe the next event is the AOD. It seems like the Ezekiel/Damascus war is very imminent. Is that so off topic you aren’t considering that, or do you really expect the AOD before that war? I assumed, perhaps without good validation other than world events, that it is the Ezekiel war that will change the hearts of Israel enough to bring them to a point of wanting perhaps to have a daily sacrifice?
    Just wonder if you would clarify. AOD the next event? Nkosazana

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  78. even more than what you know,…..is who ya know, thats Jesus and his bloody sacrafice, for us! love to all, baldy[tony]!, andree’ and tribber, etc.,….. what, is vic gone? whats the talk about missing him?

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  79. just that he (vic) does not have opportunity to post much tony so he’s missed is all. yes Who ya know–Jesus—but i was referring to knowing about prophecy in particular. i may not know a whole lot of the details (i do know what are some of the highlights to look for). many things are coming together on the economic, political, religious, and war fronts so i think it is all paving the way for that big bang when the great tribulation finale starts (soon) but i do not want to go on assumption-sticking with what Scripture proves True. others here help me understand more but they are doing the same–waiting to see Scripture interpret what we are really looking at. and to me just as important is being gracious and appreciative along the way–people here have been very kind. i hope that came across………..

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  80. Just considering the temple mount at the moment. I believe the temple mount and what happens there represents the hearts of the people of Israel and at the moment they reject Christ. A mosque is there as testimony to this with the words “God has no Son. God needs no son.” alledgedly written inside. This abomination will perhaps be removed only when the Jews return fully, so maybe a temple goes up afterwards but until they return to Him perhaps it remains. If that’s true we will have to wait until after Gog Magog invasion for that to be resolved. Just thoughts…..

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  81. Repentance/Teshuva in the month of Elul may give a clue as to the timing of this.

    “The month of Elul is a time of repentance in preparation for the High Holidays of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. Tradition teaches that the month of Elul is a particularly propitious time for repentance. This mood of repentance builds through the month of Elul to the period of Selichot, to Rosh Hashanah, and finally to Yom Kippur.

    The name of the month (spelled Alef-Lamed-Vav-Lamed) is said to be an acronym of “Ani l’dodi v’dodi li,” “I am my Beloved’s and my Beloved is mine,” a quote from Song of Songs 6:3, where the Beloved is G-d and the “I” is the Jewish people. In Aramaic (the vernacular of the Jewish people at the time that the month names were adopted), the word “Elul” means “search,” which is appropriate, because this is a time of year when we search our hearts. “

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  82. prophecy is hard to get a grip on, and yet we go after it, hoping to catch with our hands, that slick ole’ trout. / In Christ we abide, watching and waiting., patiently enduring with joy and hope, being of good cheer along the way. its all about JESUS as we all know so well. be of good cheer my friends in Christ.

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  83. Andre’ you come across, imo, as one of Gods salt of the earth people. a really nice person. i wish i could express myself in the manner that you so naturally do. blessings in Christ Jesus to you always….. i throughly understand your gratitude to the fellow bloggers on this site. oh boy, i can just hear ole’ tribber now, “who you callin’ a blogger there feller?!!” / i,m jokin’ as usual, bye folks

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  84. remember, the victory has already been won over the powers of evil, even though the struggle is still to be enacted in history.

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  85. God forsook israel,…Jesus said, He will never leave or forsake the church,………interesting. israel will survive it, its part of the plan i guess. God knows what He’s doing and in the whole entire vast configuration of things,…all is well, according to His plans n purposes. God forsook israel, for a while, that is.

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  86. God forsook Israel? am I reading you correct Tony ?

    If God could replace Israel, in spite of His unconditional, everlasting promises, then He could replace the Church.

    Tony I promise to pray more fervently for you 🙂

    It is written-

    Rom 11:21 — For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

    Rom 11:18 — Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

    Rom 11:19 — Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

    Rom 11:20 — Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

    Rom 11:22 — Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

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  87. Hosea 2:2 “Plead with your mother, plead: for SHE IS NOT MY WIFE, NEITHER AM I HER HUSBAND: let her therefore put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts;”

    Hosea 2:13-20 “And I will visit upon her the days of Baalim, wherein she burned incense to them, and she decked herself with her earrings and her jewels, and she went after her lovers, and forgat me, saith the LORD. Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and BRING HER INTO THE WILDERNESS (Rev. 12:14), and speak comfortably unto her. And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt. And it shall be at THAT DAY, (Day of the Lord) saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi (husband); and shalt call me no more Baali. For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name. And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely. And I WILL BETROTH THE TO ME FOR EVER; yea, I WILL BETROTH THEE UNTO ME IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. I WILL EVEN BETROTH THEE UNTO ME IN FAITHFULNESS: and thou shalt know the LORD.”

    Israel is presently divorced from God. He has said so Himself. She is presently not His wife by her choice, nor does He consider Himself her husband as a result. God will betroth Himself to her again when the fulness of the Gentiles has come in and all Israel will be saved. God did not spare the natural branches, He divorced Israel. So we too must take care for if He divorced her, what can He do to the branches that have been grafted in if they do not produce? Two thousand years of lost souls in Israel before He brings her back into a marriage. I would call that being forsaken for a while.

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  88. Isaiah 54:
    6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.

    7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

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  89. Luke 13:34,35
    Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

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  90. i love all of the Scripture passages yall are quoting! can’t you just hear the broken hearted longing of God in these words? jerusalem, jerusalem……..God said her name (she-israel who is yet estranged from her God and husband) shall be……(isaiah chp 62) hephzibah-My delight-and her land-beulah-married. these hebrew names are fraught with Promise from God-not one Word of His shall return to Him void! thanks for the precious reminders this morning………………………

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  91. To Nkosazana, You wrote:

    “Mr. Baldy you said you believe the next event is the AOD. It seems like the Ezekiel/Damascus war is very imminent. Is that so off topic you aren’t considering that, or do you really expect the AOD before that war? I assumed, perhaps without good validation other than world events, that it is the Ezekiel war that will change the hearts of Israel enough to bring them to a point of wanting perhaps to have a daily sacrifice?
    Just wonder if you would clarify. AOD the next event?”

    To answer your question(s), let me first say that I’ve never been dogmatic about any view that I have presented, and I have been wrong. I just like to put things out there for discussion, and/or dialogue, so that information comes forth from us all, that may edify the Body of Christ. I do pray that I’ve been helpful with at least bringing some insight for consideration.

    Now, to be honest with you, the whole Ezekiel Gog/Magog war seems to be consistant with the Battle of Armageddon (at least in my very humble opinion – meaning it won’t precede the 70th week). Damascus seems to be a part of those End Time “birth pangs” that will usher in the 70th week. I don’t particularly think that it will be one specific war that will usher in the coming Antichrist – as wars are decreed until the End – (of this Age) that is. The destruction of Damascus won’t be a single “atomic bomb” or “nuclear war” event, but possibly civil unrest, and multiple war-like excursions that lead up to it’s ultimate inhabitation – such as we see happening now in Syria. What is currently happening in Syria, could be what the Bible has prophesied, in that it is leading up to that point of total destruction.

    So yes, in keeping in accordance with Scripture, and coming from the very words that Jesus Himself spoke – I truly believe that the next event will be the AOD. In saying that, the AOD will go virtually unnoticed (again in my very humble opinion) until the Body of Christ has figured it out enough to realize that we are indeed in the 70th week.

    The AOD is the “warning” sign that Christ gives us, that places us in the final 3.5 years…not wars; false prophets; earthquakes; lawlessness; pestilences….etc, as these are the “birth pangs”, and have been present, and have continued throughout the time He departed the Earth in physical form the first time.

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  92. “For Israel “hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel. Jer 51:5

    Hisown, thank you for your interception. God’s keeps His promises as we are told, “Let God be true and ever man a liar.” Romans 3:4
    Was Jesus forsaken on the cross too
    Matt 27:45-46 having become sin in order to overcome sin? Or did Jesus at that moment become the ultimate and FINAL sacrifice for ALL mankind Heb10::5-6;… not forsaken? Neither has Israel been forsaken and God’s ways are not our ways.

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  93. the forsakeness that took place on calvary was not personally directed towards Jesus Himself by no means,… but perhaps towards the entire sins of the whole world that He willingly took upon Himself,…imo or in my understanding so faralso in my understanding, so far, it seems ous that God forsook Israel , for a time, a while,…… lets see here?, tony,…define forsake, lets define our terms. forsake in my understanding, is to let go of,

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  94. Nobody has said Israel is forsaken forever. But divorce is divorce and God has turned His back on her in punishment several times leaving her to reap the consequences of her sin. Israel does not even exist as a complete nation if you consider that the only ones back in the land are Judah and Benjamin, with some Levites thrown in. Only God knows where the rest of the 10 tribes are. They have been in punishment for a very long time in the Gentile nations. They will all be brought back to be God’s beloved forever in the fulness of time.

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  95. Understanding Theology often requires that we understand things from it’s simplest point, as it relates to End Time eschatology.

    Until one can come up in her/his own mind – through fasting, prayer, and diligent study of the Word of God; what, or is their a distinction between Israel and the Church, then this will be a counterproductive debate on whether or not Israel is the Body of Christ, or there is a separation of Israel and the Church.

    If we study Scripture….I believe that we have both.

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  96. “Forsake” from the root word Shabak is also translated “kept” “spared” or “reserved”.
    Eloi = My God/Lama=why/the root word for Shabak|shabakthoni which is usually translated “forsake” is also “kept”, “spared” “reserved” even “entangle” My God, My God, why have you spared, kept, reserved me.”

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  97. Might I inquire as to where you got this word Shabak from? In my dictionaries and concordance the closest I could come was the word Shalach which means to send away, cast out, leave, push away, send out/away and some other similar synonyms. I could not find any reference to a word such as the one you give in either the Hebrew or Greek for any use of the word forsaken or forsake in the Bible. What version of the Bible are you using might I ask? The Greek word for “forsaken” in the gospels used when Christ asked God why He had forsaken Him was the word “egkataleipo” which means “to leave behind, let remain, or desert.”

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  98. Forgot to include this. The word Sabachthani means “thou has left me.” It is a cry of distress in Chaldean. Found your Shebak after all. It is spelled differently in mine. But my dictionary says it means to leave, let alone or quit. It means to remain, but in the sense of allowing to remain where something already is. Nowhere do I find your definitions of kept or reserved, especially in the sense you have implied. Could you provide your reference?

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  99. Mr Baldy, I do not believe there is a distinction between Israel and the church anymore. In the past? Yes.

    Any person who has put their faith in Jesus is a Jew:

    Romans 2:28-29 – For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

    We are one body – Ephesians 3:6 – to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

    Jeremiah speaking of one people – Jeremiah 31:31-34 – Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

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  100. Connie, thank you for asking, I will do my best to keep it short and simple.

    The root of the Aramaic word, sabachthani is the word shabak, which means to spare, to reserve, or to keep. I am reading from the Aramaic/Syriac Peshitta Bible (written circa 2AD). The translation of the word “forsake” has changed in the King James and even the earlier 1611 Geneva Bible defines “forsake” to be that of the literal English translated definition, as we know it. I don’t believe that “forsaken” means what you say it does in the context and content of this particular writing; no offense and thank you.

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  101. Thank-you EnforcingHisgrace for showing so much grace and love. I really appreciate your comments and the insight you have brought to the table. Mr B I agree 100% on the AOD comment you made and am so thankful for that.

    One last point that is heavy on my heart.

    I find it very disconcerting the curtness that is raising it’s ugly head here.Like what is this ?

    Time to hit the knees.

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  102. You are most assuredly entitled to your own opinion on the matter, but I respectfully think I will go by the Word of God’s definition of the word sabachthani. He says in the mouth of two witnesses a matter is established. Matthew and Mark I am sure both spoke Aramaic or at least were familiar enough with it to know what Christ said. They actually translated the phrase for us so that we do not have to resort to looking up the definition. They understood it to mean forsaken in the sense of deserted, because that is what they wrote in the original manuscripts, and they heard Him say it. They used the word “egkataleipo” in their translation of that Aramaic phrase, which is the word “forsaken” which as I said earlier means to leave behind or desert in the Greek.

    As the sins of the world were laid upon Christ at that moment, and God cannot tolerate sin in His presence, it makes sense to me that God literally turned His back on Christ at that moment and Christ suffered the punishment that all those who reject Christ’s salvation must endure. Separation from God. As God, and Christ in His divine form (I believe His divinity lived alongside his humanity in His human form), do not live in linear time the way we do, (although Christ’s human body did) for God to turn His back for even a moment would have been an eternity to Christ the Divine. As there is no such thing as linear time to God – all time is in one moment which is why He can see the past and future all at the same time – Christ probably felt an eternal separation from the Father (which is the punishment of those sins He took upon Himself) as one moment in God’s existence is eternity, even though it also occurred in linear time for a brief moment for His body. If He did not suffer the punishment for us, which is eternal separation from God if we reject Him, then how on earth did He pay for our sins? The price had to be paid. It was not just blood shed, it was also the punishment paid.

    When Christ said I will never leave you nor forsake you, he used the same word “egkataleipo”. He will not leave us or desert us. We however can forsake Him just as Israel forsook God.

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  103. Connie if I may respectfully ask you,,,why do you not adress people on their names?
    Oh shall I say you only adress those ( by name – Mr Baldy and Nkosazana. ) when they agree with you? this is a place of agape love and sweet fellowship.I find you arrogance and pride highly troubling.
    I won’t bother to post the scriptures that adress this sin, ye should know them by now right:)
    May the Lord have His way and pray that we will reveal the intentions of the hearts here.
    I will be found in my prayer closet and promise to pray for us as a group.

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  104. I believe the full meaing is given in psalm 22.
    This is what Jesus was pointing to to those who were listening, and would have recited the whole psalm.

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  105. Hisown1

    I was unaware that I was the only one guilty of not addressing all of my posts to a single person in particular. I figured the information could be read by all. Mea culpa. I thought the context would serve to answer the question as to what subject I was addressing. I am a teacher and used to delivering my information lecture style. I apologize if you find that arrogant and prideful. I am not one of flowery embellishment in my speech. I tend to get right to the point. It isn’t meant to be disrespectful, it is simply my journalistic manner of addressing subject matters.

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  106. Hisown1
    One last thought. I may disagree with people’s ideas here, but that is merely disagreeing with ideas. Never have I, no matter how sweetly done, attacked a person’s Christian character.

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  107. To Agie95,

    You addressed me with this statement:

    “Mr Baldy, I do not believe there is a distinction between Israel and the church anymore.”

    Let me say this, you make a very convincing argument with Scripture, as you have provided:
    Romans 2:28-29; Ephesians 3:6; and Jeremiah 31:31-34. Let me say too that I have also read and studied these particular passages of Scripture. I don’t believe in “Replacement Theology” – which could also be applied to this particular discussion; but is really a debate all of it’s own.

    Please consider this: It has been a FACT that people equate the Nation of Israel with Jews, or those who will be saved (Church or Body of Christ), as Scripture mentions – when this is not true. There are unbelieving Jews, as well as Gentiles. The Church is a Body of Believers – Both Jew & Gentile.

    So the mistake is when those who associate Israel as the Church; instead of the “remnant” of Israel that will be saved – together with the Gentiles who will become saved, making up the Body of Christ. I believe that you have supplied “some” Scripture in what you have previously posted – it’s just that we have different interpretations. I would also include: Ephesians 2:11-13, and verse 19 – before what you have supplied in Ephesians 3:6, and read it all together. Then please read: Romans 9:6-8; and Romans 11:1-7. I believe that you will find there is a definite distinction between Remnant Israel and the Nation of Israel.

    In closing, let me add that this refusal to differential between Remnant Israel; the Nation of Israel, and it’s relationship to the Body of Christ, has often come from Reformed Theology – which teachings will tell you that Christ didn’t die for all.

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  108. It has nothing to do w replacement theology. Its inclusion theology…we have been grafted in at the fatness of the root of Israel. Simple spiritual truth.

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  109. Shelby, you are really missing the point. I won’t go into a debate, but I will say that if you had really read my comments, then you would see that I make the point about the Gentiles and Jews being the Body of Christ.

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  110. where did enforcingHisgrace’ post go that was under mr baldys n above mine thanking you mr baldy for pointing out the dangers of replacement theology? It vanished

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  111. Shelby, the post did not vanish, I asked Wickus if he would be so kind to remove it, but for all intents and purposes and because I did express to Mr. Baldy what you are referring to, Vic if you are able to re-insert, I’d appreciate it. Thank you.

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  112. For anyone.
    “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.” What do you all think the delusion is that will make them believe the lie that AC is God? Just the miracles or do you think there will be anything more?

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  113. i have wondered this too connie–maybe he is the one who will provide the “peace and safety” the world is looking for by coming up with a “solution” to the mid-east crisis/and or the world economic mess. perhaps he will be the one to divide up temple mount (rev 11) to appease the big 3-islam, judaism, and apostate christianity. also thought of the shrewd steward in Scripture (from luke 16) Jesus gives the parable about–the one who went and erased debt by just collecting part of it without the interest on debts to get money moving again. seemed smart and to his advantage–so i wonder if ac won’t operate something like that too and win the godless world’s trust. just speculating but these are the hot topics the world is screaming about the way it looks to me. for what it’s worth………..

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  114. perhaps something connected to killing christians and thinking that they are doing a service to and for God,…you know the verse folks,,,,,,,,STRONG DELUSION

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  115. another thought about the lie they will come to beLIEve, is the idea that they will become Gods themselves, like the serpent told eve n adam,….like the serpent continues to tell people thru New Age teachings, evolving thru the use of psycho-technologies

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  116. kinda like we are on the verge of making a quantum leap… into higher consciousness. Dr. Francis Schaeffer called it, “escape from REASON’, but Constance Cumbey tells it ever so well w/ her incredibly brilliant research! I admire her……………..

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  117. THE LIE IS THAT GODS PEOPLE ARE THE ENEMY,…satans view will infiltrate thier minds in the form of a crystal clear flash of intuition / revelation so certain

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  118. so,…the delusion is that they are on their way to cosmic consciousness GOD-hood and we who adhere to the superstition of the archaic bible book, ARE IN THEIR WAY, and the call to have us culled from the ac is the ticket to worship him

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  119. to balance the wonder of it all w/ the terror, is the art of a warrior. Our Father gives us the balance, and then some…….

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  120. Connie you quoted, and asked:

    “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.” What do you all think the delusion is that will make them believe the lie that AC is God? Just the miracles or do you think there will be anything more?

    If I may……….

    In reading 2 Thessalonians 2 – in which you derive the strong delusion comment, I don’t think that this particular passage of Scripture is indicating that it is “a particular delusion” that will make “them” believe the lie that the AC is God. I believe that it will be the displays of power through the works of Satan, that he does that SERVES the lie – that will be the delusion. The World won’t worship the coming Antichrist as God, but the “Beast System” that he is allowed to control. (explained in my closing).

    Let’s take a look at 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10:

    9)”The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10) and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing.”

    I have never believed that people will believe that the AC is God. This, I believe is a lie in itself, and from my studies, it comes from the whole “Left Behind” series – and those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Nor do I believe that the coming Antichrist will ever say that he is God….but he will however, display or show himself “as” if he is God. If I am wrong, please show me in Scripture……

    Please let me further explain………

    In Reading 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13 – we get a very good description of what the coming Antichrist will do. I believe that we have ONE end time player, and not Two – as many propose. (Meaning the coming Antichrist, and False Prophet). I believe that Revelation 13 speaks of a Beast Empire which is the 1st Beast from the Sea; and the 2nd Beast mentioned coming from the Earth is none other than the coming Antichrist – they are synonymous.

    So in closing, there won’t be this World Wide hypnotic type – “delusional”; mystical event that envelopes the Earth, and causes those who are perishing to accept the coming Antichrist as God. I just don’t see that in Scripture. But my very humble opinion, it will be an Empire that arises, and the coming Antichrist will be in total control of it, put in place through the power of Satan. People of the Earth will want and except a different way of living in order to SURVIVE: (Eat; maintain a job; own property….etc). Remember it will be a time of many wars, famine, pestilences, economic chaos…uprisings, etc. And because of the of lies and wonders (Politics) that Satan will be causing during this time of chaos; using his Antichrist – God will allow this strong “delusion” to deceive the people of the Earth. It will be this 4th and final Empire (One World System; a collective gathering of minds or Politics) and it’s man – “one voice” – and the lies to the people; the make-believe “financial crisis”; GREED – and such, that it will make it necessary to give in to this Governmental System. This will come upon those who choose to live and not die by martyrdom. They will accept the Mark of the Beast.

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  121. Mr B you said :
    “In reading 2 Thessalonians 2 – in which you derive the strong delusion comment, I don’t think that this particular passage of Scripture is indicating that it is “a particular delusion” that will make “them” believe the lie that the AC is God”

    And.

    “I have never believed that people will believe that the AC is God. This, I believe is a lie in itself, and from my studies, it comes from the whole “Left Behind” series – and those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Nor do I believe that the coming Antichrist will ever say that he is God….but he will however, display or show himself “as” if he is God. If I am wrong, please show me in Scripture……”

    Mr B how is it possible that you write what we discuss in the privacy of our homes and in the spiritual diaries we keep? wait it’s because we drink from the same cup of the Lord right 🙂

    I praise God for your boldness and how this bears 100% witness!

    Wow I am in awe again this morning and feel that the heaviness in my spirit has been lifted once again as I witness the power of His word being affirmed 🙂

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  122. Mr. B.
    I’m trying to understand. Correct me if I get this wrong. You believe the first beast is the system or empire which comes out of the abyss. I am guessing you mean this should be taken metaphorically not literally, as I don’t think God casts political systems into the abyss. And the second is the person. So the second does miracles on behalf of the first, (the system) so that the people worship the system. And people are to make an image to this first beast, the system, which was killed by the sword but lived? Again I am thinking you understand this as a metaphor? Would that be correct? And life is given to the image of the first beast (the system) so that it can speak and anyone who does not worship the image is killed. What kind of image of a system or empire would have a mouth? What exactly are you anticipating they will make an image of? Or again do you see all this as a metaphor for something? Or computers or something of that nature as the image?

    What exactly is the unclean spirit coming out of when it comes out of the first beast? And how exactly does the system of the beast get cast alive into the lake of fire along with the second beast (the false prophet)? How is this system alive in such a way that it can be cast into the lake of fire? I’m not getting how anything other than a person (demonic or human) can be cast alive into the lake of fire. I’m just trying to understand how you deal with this last two issues given that you believe the first beast is a system.

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  123. mr. B, perhaps the strong delusion is for them to, finally, 100percent, be allowed to FULLY believe that they do not need God, just like they had been thinking thus far, all along……./….and their dream has now become, their nightmare!……../….. as a man[MAN] thinketh in his heart so he becomes—[so to speak]. You see, NOW they are absolute slaves to the darkness that they have entertained in their minds. Thus the LIE would be that “we do not need god—- and when God allows this falsethought pattern to become wholly and completely embraced, then the love of many waxes COLD, and the evil breaks forth= blood bath/persecution for true believers in Christ.

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  124. Falling away / Apostasy/ strong delusion – Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first,

    And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    Isaiah 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spoke, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

    Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness…

    One demonic delusion being taught today is -“ye are little god’s” !

    1Ti 4:1 — Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    This “apostasy” seems to play a major part in the ” strong delusion lie ” that the Lord sends to those that love NOT His word but seem to embrace the commandments and doctrines of men.

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  125. Tony I love how the Lord knows His own and has promised to lead us to all truth:)

    My ( personal ) concern for “part” of the “strong delusion ” are those that try to pin the tail on Mr Obama 😦 It’s sad to witness just how much time and effort is being put into trying to make it ” believable ” but it just don’t fly with me 🙂 I just love this promise;

    1Jo 2:27 — But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    If O is the AC then I need a ” reality check” – seriously, I’ve lost quite a few pre trib friends over this issue lately and I ain’t even an American fer crying out loud !

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  126. when i said, in my last comment,”as in,’ we are autonomous”, i was referring , obviously, to the people of the lie, saying that, in defiance of God, they could govern themselves as they- Need not God, because they are able to save themselves-[ ie. The STRONG Delusion!] / As for Obama being the ac,….only if God Himself deceides it to be so, HE ALONE would have to allow it . I do think that the spirit of anti-christ is working thru obama and others, and when it rears its head in their actions or in their mo’s, some tend to wanna jump to conclusions! i see that in myself, this quick-fire tendancy to assume such possible scenarios. I say to myself, down boy- curb them hot flashes! i wouldnt want to be dogmatic about such a hunch.

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  127. thanks Colleen for that scripture verse! BOOM! Beautiful!!! 1 Jo2:27…….so very good,…we carry on, loving one another with iron sharpening iron as we connect in Christ.amen, and Praise God

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  128. All that Mr. B made mention of,..the system back from the abyss and the false prophet[person] showing up next in line, made me think of NAZISM and Aldoph Hitler! I-M-A-G-I-N-E the horror

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  129. Connie you are Spot on with what I have been trying to convey…….now, to answer your question(s) ….

    Yes, absolutely I think that the book of Revelation is very symbolic, and it uses metaphors and symbolic language to describe whats going on – not in everything that it describes however, as somethings are literal. The mouth that you mention is none other than the Antichrist himself, this is why I say that the Beast System and the man are synonymous. It will be the Antichrist that will carryout the mission of this Beast System – working behind the power of Satan. The Beast System is the 4th Empire, that is very possibly the European Union, being wounded but not dead, only to rise again, or come Alive in these Last Days. Antichrist will be the one who causes all to receive the “mark”.

    And yes Tony….I think it will be very similar to the time of Adolf Hitler.

    A system can be alive, in that we have a democracy as a system here in the United States that is alive, and we live by it. IT can be cast alive into the Lake of Fire – just as Death and Hades will be. (Revelation 20:14)

    I have been feeling this way about Revelation 13 for some time now. I had these thoughts and have mentioned them before on this forum. I believe that God confirmed this to me when I read an article on the Rapture Ready site by Britt Gillette – and believe it or not it answers the very question that I had been probing.

    Here is the link: http://raptureready.com/featured/gillette/false-prophet.html

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  130. Thank-you Mr Baldy for the link .

    I assume this is written from a pre trib positon but nonetheless it’s a excellent post and yes it does bear witness.

    The following paragraph jolted me up @ 3:30 this morning and that’s when I had my ” ahaha moment” 🙂

    Following a great war in heaven, Satan is thrown to the earth in defeat where he knows that he has little time before Christ returns to establish his Millennial Kingdom. This event occurs at the mid-point of the tribulation:

    “Rejoice, O heavens! And you who live in the heavens, rejoice! But terror will come on the earth and the sea. For the Devil has come down to you in great anger, and he knows that he has little time.” Revelation 12:12 (NLT)

    The mid-point of the tribulation, when Satan comes to reside on earth, is also when the Antichrist commits the “abomination of desolation” spoken of by Jesus and the prophet Daniel.

    I believe this is what Shorty and myself have been trying to express ( plz for give me if i am speaking for you brother ) but humbly believe we are in the ” MIDST” of the 70th week and are waiting for the last 42 months to be ushered in with a demonic ” bang”.

    I’m just trying to put this into perspective and welcome correction.

    A) Michael is RESTRAINING ( keeping the AC from being revealed ) until the appointed -time .

    B) The AOD is associated with Satan being cast out as Michael makes war with him in the heavenliness ( It’s almost as if we are in the midst of this battle as we feel the groaning in our spirits as the Holy Spirit utters the words we can’t in prayer )

    Rom 8:26 — Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

    NOT BY POWER OR BY MIGHT BUT BY HIS SPIRT will we overcome 🙂

    C) The next EVENT is the AOD.( JEWS flee to the mountains first – where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.) and the start of Jacobs trouble .

    The dragon then turns on those that :

    Rev 12:17 — which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    D) The start of Jacobs trouble/ the last of the 42 months of the 70th week.

    E) The Apostasy = the FALLING away is NOT the RAPTURE and part of the ” strong delusion”-

    Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    F) Men being lovers of SELF ( I am ” god” ) having a FORM of religion. Satan sitting on the mount of the congregation as he deceived the one third of the angels ( stars of heaven?)

    Isa 14:13 — For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

    Rev 12:4 — And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

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  131. PraiseGod ,Glory to God ,You alone are worthy Lord. We give Thanks as you honor the search for Truth taking place amongst us here.How truely sweet it is!!

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  132. not to necessarily change the subject, but ,Connie would you care at some pt.to elaborate, for me or us all, on why you say we will need to go to the mount of olives upon fleeing babylon.i’m interested in what your idea rests upon.

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  133. Tony I missed where Connie said that.Would you please quote that, thanks TT 🙂

    Sorry I could not resist…inside joke 🙂

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  134. Okay I’m trying to understand this. So those in ” Judea” that are fleeing are American born-again believers?

    Since arriving in Canada back in 1998 and the Lord showed me “who” Mystery Babylon is I would never have thought ( American’s ) were ” told ” ( ?) to leave for Jerusalem? I thought each man to his OWN country . Hmmm.

    Jer 51:9 — We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed: forsake her, and let us go every one into his own country: for her judgment reacheth unto heaven, and is lifted up even to the skies.

    Been to Israel….wonderful to be there and even though we were “rebuked” for preaching the gospel, it was a huge eye opener for me 🙂

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  135. Hisown1

    Given that it has been shown that I interpret all of this quite differently from the rest of you, I am guessing that we have a totally different take on this. I believe America is Babylon. I also probably put Babylon’s destruction at a different place than the rest of you do. Not sure, but just guessing. I put it after the tribulation, just before the time of the Lord’s return and the rapture.

    My family has been in America for 400 years. I consider America my “own country”. I have no “own country” to run to, nor do Native American Christians. This is our “own country”. Now if others want to run to other nations that they still consider the country from which they have come, after and if they survive the tribulation, that is of course their decision, but if I survive I intend to try to run to Jerusalem to await the Lord’s return unless He gives me other directions. I do not believe there will be much time between the opportunity to flee there and the Lord’s return. The Jews in America will have to go there, as they are supposed to be gathered there at the end out of Babylon. I hope to accompany them, should God see fit to keep me alive. I figure what is going down there no matter how awful won’t be a problem for those whom God intends to keep alive until His return. It is going to be pretty bad all over. The main thing is to get out of Babylon.

    Revelation 18:4-5 “And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.” I do not consider this a warning to Israel or those in Judea. I consider this a warning to Christians in Babylon.

    Jeremiah 51:44-45, 49-50 “And I will punish Bel in Babylon, and I will bring forth out of his mouth that which he hath swallowed up: and the nations shall not flow together any more unto him: yea, the wall of Babylon shall fall. My people, (all of God’s people, not just the Jews) go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD. As Babylon hath caused the slain of Israel to fall, so at Babylon shall fall the slain of all the earth. Ye that have escaped the sword, (the tribulation IMO) go away, stand not still: remember the LORD afar off, and let Jerusalem come into your mind.” If you want to think of it this way, then do so. The Lord has told me personally that this is where I am to go if I survive, as there is no reason to think of Jerusalem, if I have no other place to run and otherwise will have to stay in Babylon and get destroyed along with the wicked.

    Since you do not seem to be In America, I guess it is not an issue for you as Canada is not Babylon. You can stay put.

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  136. Connie,

    I believe the USA is MB yes.

    Canada is not my country, actually NO country is , I counted that all dung when I forsook all for Christ in 1993 , and was asked to take this verse and apply it to my life 🙂

    Mat 19:29 — And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

    I am married to an American and the Lord has clearly shown me to “come out of the midst of her” and yes we may disagree on the ” timing” of her judgment I’m thinking 🙂

    For our citizenship is in heaven; from which also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ:

    I love that !

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  137. Hisown1

    As it seems to be when I have discussion on this site, I am talking of the literal situation while others speak of the spiritual. Speaking spiritually, I have come out of the apostate church so have fled that “Babylon”, and naturally I consider heaven, if I were to die now, followed by New Jerusalem, when the Lord returns, as my eternal home, but while here on earth I have to deal with the realities of life and physically leaving physical Babylon is one of them as I understand it. Hence my answer of the fleeing to my “own country” reference, as being a physical place on this earth, not applying to my situation as outlined above.

    As I already am pretty positive due to things the Lord has shown me that I am to stay here (to either be killed in or endure the tribulation, He has not revealed which to me), I cannot flee Babylon, as I do not have His permission. He has indicated He has something else for me to do, but for how long I do not know. If I live to flee her, it will be after the tribulation is over, so considering heaven my “own country” in this particular situation is not really applicable in the literal sense, as it doesn’t seem to be very effective solution (unless of course I die in the tribulation) to what may be a very real physical problem, physically getting out of Babylon, as I cannot flee to New Jerusalem on my own. Hence the earthly Jerusalem.

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  138. It’s the getting Babylon OUT of us that’s the hardest right 🙂

    Connie I despise patriotism ( I see it as pride and idolatry it’s my personal conviction- remember Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego ) and the reason I quoted that verse . I pray that makes sense . Christ alone get’s my love, loyalty and obedience . He requires that of His own 🙂

    I laugh at my hubby when he says that he prayed for a woman for over 17 yrs that loved God more than him and now that he found her he wonders if that was such a good idea 🙂 I suppose we need to be careful what we pray for right – like praying for patience 🙂

    Counting ALL things as dung carries a ” cost ” and I love it , including ones heritage and all that we hold onto 🙂

    Yes getting out of religious Babylon has been the call to the elect over the past little while and praise the Lord for those that heeded the call 🙂 I love that !

    Yeah I’m trying to figure out how one ” flees to earthly Jerusalem” at the end of the tribulation, wow unless the Lord makes that possible in some divine way I can’t even imagine how that will look. My hubby has a career in the airlines and can already see how the AC/ system will make it almost “impossible” to fly after a certain point. I mean how do you fly to another country with no MOTB? – that’s rhetorical anyways 🙂

    Was reflecting on this verse tonight and just felt like posting it 🙂

    Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

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  139. take me away….to the farthest star in the sky………take me away…from the power of my ambition……….Father, forgive me my sins and deliver me from evil

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  140. he brings down the fire, fromthe skys………..you can tell,he’s doing well, by the look in human eyes,…better not compromise, it won’t be easy

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  141. is america the land of shinar? i don’t think so…///Admittedly, America does strike me as the mystery babylon,however i wouldn’t bet my life on it

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  142. Mr. B… I was thinking along the same lines as you, except then someon asked me who can make war with the beast? It got me probing more and more into the Revelation 13, and Revelation 17, and questioning who is the Beast? And Who can make war with the Beast? Well We can make war with the Beast that being America!!! In fact I got to looking at Daniel 7 closer and I don’t believe that the 4 beasts that rise up are tied to the statue of Daniel 2 I think they are seperate, and I think that the 10 crowns are one in the same as the 7 crowns and the 7 heads… I really think that we are being deceived and have been deceived… problem is that there are so many interpretations out there now, even if I’m right and or your right no one will believe us until it actually happens… 😦 I aslo believe that instead of looking for a revived roman empire, that potentially we should be looking for a revived Babylon.

    Hisown, I think that the United States of America and Canada are the Daughters of Babylon… We are the wings of the 1st Beast that rises in Daniel 7… I’ll lay it all out there and obviously I’m no prophet, but I think we’re also being fooled in to looking for the 7 year period, I think there is only the 3 1/2 year period, I don’t have scripture to back up, because I can’t figure it out, but the only 7 mentioned is the covenant, and then there is always talk of the 3 1/2 year period, we’re missing something there… I think that America gets Judged by God, and we are judged as the Daughter of Babylon, however Mother Babylon is non other than Britain/England/UN, and I can’t help but to think that America is also the first Beast of Revelation 13, and the 2nd Beast of Revelation 13 is Britain/England/UN. I think that Gog gets an evil thought and attacks unsuspecting Daughter of Babylon, which has New York City as the Base for the UN then the UN is then moved to be headquarted in Europe some where… But I think there is a major chain reaction that happens almost instantaneous and probably starts with the destruction of Damascus… Any way good news is God spares his people and I believe we pulled out before the judgement and I believe will be feasting on kings and captains at the wedding banquet 🙂

    I do want to say that I’ve not gone looney… 🙂 However I’ve really been questioning everything that we’ve been taught… I think that Satan has done an exceptional job of deceiving us, and that was the intent. So in my attempts to think outside the box, but remain within in scripture I’ve made some conclusions, however it is a work in progress and I by all means do not have it all figured out…

    Thanks

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  143. Hi BerryBB,
    You wrote…
    “problem is that there are so many interpretations out there now, even if I’m right and or your right no one will believe us until it actually happens…”

    It’s intentional (by God Himself) I think, until the final 3.5 you’re Seeing in scripture. And I’m with you on that….that’s why they call me “Shorty” 🙂

    I have quite a few posts and links way up yonder in this thread I’m sure you’ll find helpful. Just ask away if you have any questions on’m. 🙂

    Are you new here?….if you are, then welcome…..if you’re not( and i’m mistaken) it’s because I’ve only been posting just somewhat lately after being away from the site for a while due to time constraints.

    Bless ya 🙂
    Shorttribber.

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  144. Hi Again Berry,
    I just wanted to re-post this little section from near the beginning of the thread to help in you in your efforts to think “outside the box” 🙂

    It (referring to an earlier comment) could very well be a “type” of fulfillment if prophecy is layered in nature…..I believe it is layered and multidimensional.

    consider this idea if you would…..

    These ideas are understood by comprehending the general yet intricate dynamics of the layering, compounding, and revealing of prophecy. When we take time to step back from our own personal Perspective and view prophecy from a much greater vantage point we can see things we’ve never seen before.
    We are not physically able to See beyond three dimensions, but God can, and when the Prophets Speak For God, they are not limited to a 123456789 law of progression of time, distance and physical space. They are Speaking For God from an Eternal realm where there are no such confined limitations as the physical first second or third dimensional observance.

    “God has only one meaning and fulfillment of prophecy”, that’s part of the general argument we hear. But I’m convinced otherwise and, vast amounts of evidence exists to support the layered and multiple fulfillment of God’s Voice to us.

    something to think about

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  145. This is for everyone to consider,

    “vast amounts of evidence exists to support the layered and multiple fulfillment of God’s Voice to us.”

    Think about what “voice” and the Sound of “voice” is.

    Repetition…..repetitious waves and duplication of what is Said…..what is SAID….and THEN…we Hear it…………………..we…….HEAR……………….IT.

    I thought it should be interesting to look up the meaning of the word “readeth” form Matthew and Mark…..ya know “the the Reader or let they that Readeth”……..Understand.

    I’m not going to post the meaning here, and just for kicks, let ya look it up for yourself in your Strongs 🙂

    Very, very……..very interesting

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  146. Shorty you said : 🙂

    “It’s intentional (by God Himself) I think, until the final 3.5 you’re Seeing in scripture. And I’m with you on that….that’s why they call me “Shorty” ”

    Amen!! I love the Lord’s INTENTIONAL way of HIDING these things and love how Christ says it best :

    Luk 10:21 — In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

    Amen Berry I think we all here have come to see the folly of a ” 7yr trib” time frame and love how the Lord is the One teaching us as He seems to be “undoing” all our pre taught ideologies and doctrines of men 🙂

    Also I agree that there will be no place to hide from the beast :

    And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:

    Love you guys and need you all to know how much I appreciate the past few years of our fellowship and discussions together. We make mention of you all daily in prayer.

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  147. Guys not to derail the thread but I found this clip from Bro Brian’s and wanted to share that as this is the exact same sentiments we experienced going to Israel. We were rebuked harshly for daring to preach the gospel and that from a ” Messianic” believer. A pastor friend can vouch for that. Also a quick prayer request. This same pastor has just asked if hubby and I will join him in Israel in two weeks, I covet your prayers as we lay out the fleece before the Lord if this is His will.

    Florida DNC Boss: Christians Want Jews Slaughtered… http://t.co/EZ6MH4RY

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  148. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say this…..(And it may make some of you mad)

    First of all, I don’t believe in Replacement Theology at ALL, I wan to make that clear.

    I believe that God has a special dealing with the Nation of Israel – (a remnant at least), as they as a people were chosen so that God may be known to all men. They are the ones who should know better – as far as coming to the knowledge of God, but it doesn’t make them better. It only makes them accountable “First”. It really sickens me to see fellow brethren in Christ literally worship Israel, as if they are God Himself, and if we somehow disagree with who they are, or the decisions that they make, then we are against God. Utter nonsense!

    I hear this over and over: Israel is this, don’t go against Israel that… – oh someone spoke badly about the Jews, and the Nation of Israel, as if they are above the complete Body of Christ…..blah, blah, blah……

    God is going to deal with Israel as a Nation – no doubt about it, but for fellow believers in the Body of Christ to think that they have some sort of “special anointing” because they are in Israel really distorts the meaning of Scripture. I’m really tired of it.

    Sorry folks…there are some Jews that will be in hell as well as unbelieving Gentiles.

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  149. To Connie:

    I find it interesting that you have mentioned that you take things “literal” when it comes to Scripture, and you have mentioned that in the same “tone of language” if you will – as coming from an apostate church…….care to elaborate?

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  150. BerryBlueBerry….you know I love your Icon Man!

    It really goes well with your name. And Shorty, for the record ole BerryBlueBerry has been around for a minute. (lol)

    BBB…..yes, I see where you’re going with your theory – and I don’t rule it out. There has to be something to the relevance of the continuous mentioning of the 3.5 year time-frame. As time moves on, and events keep on playing out as they are, I believe, as I’m sure that you do too, that things will become more apparent.

    Right now, with the events that are going on in Syria, I’m not so sure that the prophecy concerning Damascus isn’t being revealed, and will soon come to final fruition.

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  151. Hi all,
    Since we’re talking about Israel, can anyone let me know if I did right or wrong on a purchase of an 1880 Talmud?
    I just won it off ebay, it’s in German, Hebrew and Aramaic…..I can’t read it, but hey it was only 20 bucks,

    Here it is..

    http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages/showimage.aspx?gid=664230&image=602109604&images=602109604,602109617,602109633,602109653,602109672&formats=0,0,0,0,0&format=0

    I’ve heard mixed things about the Talmud……should I keep it or chuck it?

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  152. Mr. B,

    I’m sorry, I guess I don’t quite understand what it is that I didn’t make clear. I said that “spiritually” speaking I came out of the apostate church, meaning that I will not tolerate all the things which have been brought into the churches today. And yes, that also required that I literally leave the church (meaning in the organizational sense as in denominations, buildings, etc.) to divorce myself from it, as my continued presence would have indicated my condoning what was going on. Is that what you meant by my “tone of language?” I know a number of families who have done as my family did, literally walking away from the apostate church (Christendom is apostate across all denominations), and exchanging it for a house/home church. Does that answer your question or were you looking for something else?

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  153. as a historical document it has some value i have heard through a well-versed Bible teacher but as a spiritual guide-as a rule of faith-if you will-not so much…………….it can give some background to times of the Bible and be supplemental in that regard. i have read some excerpts from it and found it helpful. my josephus book is also helpful but everything has to be weighed in light of Scripture as i know you are well aware. God can/will direct your heart to use it or disregard it as this is merely my opinion.

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  154. Thanx Andre’

    I just wanted to make sure it didn’t have a “dark” or esoteric side to it.
    If i can’t read it I’m sure it can’t cause me any confusion doctrinally anyway.
    I just thought it had a nifty binding and antique appeal to put on my bookshelf with all the good stuff.
    Just don’t want anything “dark” or “spiritually ugly” on my shelf ya know.

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  155. “Just don’t want anything “dark” or “spiritually ugly” on my shelf ya know.”

    I’ve been do’n some googl’n around….i don’t think that will be spending any time on my shelves……wow……I think I’m gonna burn it!

    First I think I’ll see how useful it is in the bathroom…..gotta be careful though….pages may be a bit delicate due to age………..hope that’s not to graphic….if it is…i apologize.

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  156. it is clearly from the hyper self-righteous judaism stand point–especially about Jesus Himself. no question about that. there is some limited historical value but one has to determine that use for themselves. like you i know the rule of faith is the Word of God Itself and totally without error (unlike every other writing which is of men). Jesus is the very embodiment of Truth and Grace which the talmud is unable to reconcile………sad since the jews were given the oracles of God and chose their own additions/traditions (by and large) over His Word with the horrible consequences they are still living until the Lord Himself opens their blind eyes to know him as the One that was pierced (in the house of His friends).

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  157. “it is clearly from the hyper self-righteous judaism stand point–especially about Jesus Himself.”

    I didn’t realize it’s moreless the handbook for everything that is “Dark Zionism”…..wow….ugly stuff.

    Shame on me for not knowing!

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  158. God is Light and in Him there is no darkness.Just look at what we know about light, it travels at 186thousand miles per second! i mean hummingbirds flap their wings at 80 wingbeats per second,.. i mean heck,even that is fast!, but, but, but….the speed of Light, WOW! when the bible says that his ways are higher than ours and it speaks of the distinction btwn creature and creator, and i think of me going kinda fast on my motorsickle,and that ole snail ridin’ on the turtles back,thinking he’s haulin butt, why then relativity crosses my mind, and i’m GLAD to be related to GOD in CHRIST JESUS, amen

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  159. i’m about to ACTIVATE my prayer capsule now,…5,4,3,2,1,0,…………..see ya all in the mornin’, good night john-boy, good nite baldy, good nite colllleeeeeen! good nite abigail, carry on sister

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  160. What wonderful thoughts Tony…..ALL…wonderful, glorious thoughts of LIGHT and GLORY WHERE…………….NO DARKNESS……..can exist.

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  161. amen brother! thanks for the pic, i feel as tho its the most beautiful thing i have ever laid eyes on, maybe its because i’ve got the inside scoop! Thank you for it all. God is withus and He will teach each of us to fully TrusT in Him alone in connection w/ His BLOOD sacrafice. teach each, amen

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  162. Hi Connie,

    Absolutely you have answered my question. Your response really makes me ponder the question: Are there any “True Churches” out there today?

    Perhaps that should be a topic of discussion of it’s own, but I have met so many fellow Believers here in San Antonio Texas that are looking for a “True Church”. Not the Mega Churches, that have that “feel good” let me tickle your ears while I request your tithes to fill my pockets type environment. I tell ya, it’s getting crazy.

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  163. Mr. B,
    We need to get together sometime….I’m here in San Antone ya know 🙂

    I know what ya mean about finding a church to…wow….not easy…..Where you going to fellowship?

    I can’t find nuthin 😦

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  164. We cannot equate God’s eternal, infinitely-dimensional frame of reference with our limited one-dimensional perspective. We need escape velocity to go beyond the orbit of our constrained understanding to rise above…in Love, with an eye of compassion,..[seeing our enemies, like unto ourselves]…. and begin to understand the victimization of the fall and its effect on us all. The Holy Spirit provides us the acceleration necessary to accomplish this feat! ALL PRAISE AND HONOR ARE YOURS LORD JESUS…….Tribber, you have nailed it! Your icon reveals it!!! Glory to God, forever. Truely Awesome,I AM Blessed!

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  165. ASK….=….Ask, Seek ,Knock. / Knock and the door will open,…Seek and you will find,…and Ask and it shall be given, amen. Like when i asked about the word used for Forsake in the quote of Jesus when He said, ” I will never leave you nor Forsake you”, and Connie replied with the answer,….egkataleipo! Thanks again Connie,Thanks Lord. i got to go now, my dog, Sam{sam i am} is at the front door asking to come in……………………

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  166. i could not agree more that there are fewer and fewer places to go to worship with true believers. absolutely becoming rare to find people who worship in Spirit and Truth. i see so much man-centeredness in churches that i am sickened and grieved. the Word of God is given a lick and a promise-barely referenced-no charge to believe and obey what it says. we have a faithful few where i attend church. our number has dwindled as people leave–growing colder to God-loving this life more than Him. people we know and love with whom we do not and cannot have a like mind with because my husband and i have put a premium on our relationship with God over worldly pursuits (1peter4:4-thinking us strange that we do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation)…….but the Lord is still giving our hearts the burden to share Jesus with others so we do. very little response we see but the Precious Seed of the Gospel is still to be scattered–nonetheless–Serve the Lord with Joy and Gladness amen!?! i pray to be found faithful and blameless till He comes…my prayer for each of you as well.

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  167. I just stopped in got a visitor brochure to see about times of service and a little info ect.

    The brochure had triangles ( pyramids to me ), superimposed over one another…just happened the Pastor was the one who gave it to me.

    I was about to leave and then turned back around and asked him what the “pyramids” represented to him. He said, “oh, those are triangles, not pyramids. They represent the trinity and the triangle was used quite a lot among early Christians throughout history”.

    You know, i said, I’ve done a fair amount of study along the line of church history and such, and I don’t recall seeing that as a common symbol. Seems, the triangle or pyramid has kind of a dark or negative connotation to it when it’s used so much among freemasons and luminists.

    Am I mistaken folks….anybody remember seeing the use of the pyramid or triangle as a symbol among Authentic and orthodox Christians in antiquity?

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  168. a triangle is a cool thing w/ so much inherent strenght,but thats besides the point.its that pyramid with the missing capstone, that stands out as parallel with evil, symbolizing THE New World Order: satans plan thru fallen man, to usher in the reign of ac. Triangles are just triangles, and to me they are mathematically beautiful, like squaresn circles etc

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  169. Hi Shorty……

    I have attended a few Churches here in San Antonio. I don’t want to bad mouth them, but let me say that I’m NOT your traditional modern day Mega Church type guy. The Mega Churches, in my opinion are the ones that have multiple services, parking is crazy, and the services are all about a “feel good” – lets give the congregation what they want to hear type sermons. The people are generally fake, and its all about how much money one puts into the offering plate; what you do for a living; what type car you drive, home you live in; dress you are wearing….etc

    I love the small Churches. I love to know that the Pastor, which by the way will always be a man for me – is connected with the members of the congregation that God has gave him to lead over. He should know them individually, in my opinion – but not to the point of a cultish behavior.

    If you find one like this, then my family and I would be interested to know.

    Harvest Fellowship was okay – they are now defunct. Cornerstone – John Hagee….well, I’ll keep my opinion to myself. BRCC downtown was a bit too worldly for me with the rock band, and it’s music. If you have the opportunity – and like a small church, check out Grace Community Church on E. Commerce St. They are located in the “Fatty’s Burger”. I’d be interested to know what you think.

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  170. i just watched a youtube video on the AOD, w/ pastor peter gregory,..interesting..he points out that the holy place is mt zion/mtmoriah and that the encompassing armies are the abomination! as in no ac dude standing in some temple. This reminds me of mr.B’s take on it, and it makes sense. peter gregory moves along rather slowly…but its worth the watch,imo

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  171. hi vic, hope all is well, just going to you tube and putting in his name and abomination of desolation works to bring it up easily.God be w/ you mr. Wickis and thanks for putting up w/ me on your website. i had a dream that i was kicked off of noahs ark

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  172. http://www.ktvb.com/news/Two-dead-after-car-rolls-in-Boise-foothills-169105676.html

    This news story from Boise, Idaho is about my great niece, Tiffany 17 years old. She and another young man died early this morning in this horrific accident. One 20 year old survived. Please pray for my family, Tiffany was a baptized believer, in fact I have her baptism picture. We are so grieved by this and there is not much more I can say. Her mother, Beverly needs much prayer from all who pray. Thanks

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  173. Oh sorry, forgot to say I have been following this post, but did not enter into the discussion. I am pretty set on what I think and felt it was not going to be beneficial to post, but please know I have been praying for each and every one of you daily.

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  174. My heart and prayers go out to you and your family Romalynn, you know, and let it be settled, our Lord will make all to work out for the good…He is mighty.

    I set my self in agreement with Your comforting consoling Spirit Lord….please help them Father…….amen.

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  175. coming alongside you and your whole family in prayer roma. amen that God will bring great good from this heartache. may His Peace and Comfort surround you all.

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  176. Beverly , my niece in Idaho
    Thank you to everyone at MVHS who came out to be together as one big family on the football field tonight to grieve our loss, pray and show support for our devastating losses. Two wonderful young people, both saved, went to be with our Heavenly Father last night…. they will be forever missed by so many families, friends, coaches and fellow students. Thank you staff and coaches, parents, the entire volleyball team for your love and support tonight. — with Mady Lewis and Tiffany Walters.

    I have baptism pictures of my lovely great niece, will send to Vic and see if he can post. As we go along each day in our watching and praying, and studying prophecy, I remember that being a saved person is the most important thing of all. Only 17 years old, but a believer who had been baptized when she was younger. Thanks to all for prayers going up the families will certainly need it.

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  177. Deepest condolences to the families of these young people. The pain must be intense. Our prayers are with them. Thank the Lord we need not grieve though, as those who have no hope. We know it will be but a short time of separation.

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