The relevance of Isa 9:10 and apostasy.

James 1:12 asked an interesting question on the previous post that I think needs a post on its own. If you have not read it yet, please read this and bless us with your comments. I do understand the concerns some of you have about the Harbinger book, the writer of the book and the popularity of the message. This post is purely done out of the viewpoint that the message may be a final warning to the church/USA and is not seen as a call to revival.

Here’s James (Edited for better reading):

Are any of you familiar with the Isaiah 9:10 parallels with the events of 9/11 and the financial crisis?

In life I generally steer clear of what is popular out of not wanting to follow the crowd or be deceived. One of the reasons I like to post in places like this is so I can also receive guidance and listen to other viewpoints that may catch something I have missed – so I’m open to your input!

Can I suggest you take a look at the following links on the Harbinger message.

This first one is a link to the sermons as taught by Rabbi Jonathan Cahn They conatin all the information. The other 2 are the discussions on FP that give some quicker answers as the sermons are about 40 mins each, if you have time for them I highly recommend watching them all:

Rabbi Cahn’s sermons

Fulfilled Prophecy Discussion One

Fulfilled Prophecy Discussion Two

OK so I thought I would propose my question/theory now…

I’m going to move off the assumption that the Isaiah 9:10 message is a genuine warning from God to the US. So just to stake out the relevant facts:

The warning is to alert the church of America’s spiritual decline.

The timing of the stock market crashes are meant to draw attention to the 7th year of Israel’s economic cycle and specifically its day of debt forgiveness or shmita.

The word shmita was meant to be understood by the term “release” because the stock market drop in September 2008 was an event of divine intervention, God Himself put His identifying number 777 points fall, 7% of the market value wiped off the NYSE and I think this happened at the 7th hour of trading (this is one fact I have yet to verify), blowing a $700 billion whole in America’s banking system – not too subtle!

This action though was in response to the decline of America’s spiritual health a financial mirroring of the decline of the US.

The US having had its foundations in God and scripture upon which it wealth and global success rested particularly since the end of the Second World War as the leading nation, is now seeing position eroded. The foundation of this whole world system because it relied on the US is in peril.

We see the Eurozone crisis spring up because of this issue. It has pressed the EU into moving closer to either destruction or full union like a single nation/empire.

So finally we get to the point!

There is a connection now between the spiritual decline or falling away of the United States and the possible rise of Europe’s beast system on the world stage, teeth and all.

Is it possible then that this Isaiah 9:10 moment, this releasing, dropping or falling away of the economy is a key signpost in showing us that the last days apostacy is actually occurring?

Just to use Wikipedia’s definition if I can?!

“Apostasy in Christianity refers to the rejection of Christianity by someone who formerly was a Christian. The term apostasy comes from the Greek word apostasia (“ἀποστασία”) meaning defection, departure, revolt or rebellion. It has been described as “a willful falling away from, or rebellion against, Christian truth. Apostasy is the rejection of Christ by one who has been a Christian….”[2] “Apostasy is a theological category describing those who have voluntarily and consciously abandoned their faith in the God of the covenant, who manifests himself most completely in Jesus Christ.”[3] “Apostasy is the antonym of conversion; it is deconversion.”[1]”

It is perhaps one of those time will tell things, but given the shaking of the Med through the Islamic uprising and more the stability enjoyed under the US at its peak seems very much to be fading fast.

Comment by Vic:

Yes, it is possible.


58 thoughts on “The relevance of Isa 9:10 and apostasy.

  1. I think we all agree that apostasy is rampant today in our world. Many that call themselves, “Christian” are clearly not. My discomfort with Cahn’s teaching is that it doesn’t fit well with the careful examination of scripture we are commanded to do as it relates to the historical context, the broader meaning of the surrounding passage, the clear subject of the rest of the passage which is Israel.

    The passage that Cahn cites – certainly IS relevant to today. It is clear from the text that God deals with those that would turn from him and depend on themselves. My concern with the Cahn book is that his is being hailed by some that are doing just that. Instead of turning to God and seeking his will for each one of us, many will be deceived into following some unstable person’s crazy end-times program (not referring to Cahn here, but someone who would misuse his work to manipulate the gullible).

    If, as I believe and many of here believe, we are at the very threshold of the fulfillment of many end-times prophecies we should be keeping careful watch on those prophecies (as I think many here have been) and be very careful about being distracted by prophetic interpretations that may not apply to the United States at all (as in direct application, not application by principle which I think IS appropriate).

    I think we as faithful brothers and sisters should be sharing the Gospel and telling others that the US is CERTAINLY under judgement. Not all of its founder were solid christians though many were, and there had been a long tradition of seeking God’s counsel through his word in many of our nation’s most difficult hours. That time I believe passed probably more than 40 years ago, and I am in agreement that this nation has been under judgement, a judgement of abandonment by God (the nation not individuals) since then. We have seen the rise in sexual promiscuity, the fall of marriage, the destruction of the family, and now in the second wave the rise of abominable relationships, a replacement of the holy with the profane in marriage, and a command by the culture to call sin good.

    If we accept that the principle of Isaiah 9:10 applies to us today, which I do – we should also accept that God’s wrath (not the final wrath on the earth, but wrath nonetheless) is being poured out on those nations that once sought after him, but reject him today.

    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
    Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
    For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
    And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

    (Romans 1:18-32 ESV)

    I hope no one is offended by my desire to be very cautious in how we handle the scripture, and to exercise an enormous amount of discernment in what we label as prophecy (especially end-times prophecy) that has been fulfilled.


  2. Hi James 1:12 and others,

    Sorry it has taken me so long to respond, but I have literally been on my back with pain. Please pray for me.

    Now, continuing on the comments from the ENP(I) theory……

    James 1:12 you ask this:

    Is it possible then that this Isaiah 9:10 moment, this releasing, dropping or falling away of the economy is a key signpost in showing us that the last days apostasy is actually occurring?

    James 1:12 – I’m going to be real frank, and honest and flat out say that this Rabbi Jonathan Cahn sounds like he’s full of BOLOGNA. This guy is no different from any other modern day soothsayer dooms day “False Prophet” who is trying to pray on the innocents of those who are looking for the truth. If 9/11 is the 1st Harbinger – then what was Pearl Harbor all about?

    I put this guy in the same category of Joel Richardson, Waild Shoebat, and need I even mention Sid Roth? This is all about selling books. I guess we can use Scripture to form an idea about anything we want in order to deceive – which in my opinon, is what this guy is doing. This modern day sensationalism really scares me. Talk about deception!

    I’m sorry, I’m really not trying to hurt any one’s feelings, but it’s obvious to me that this guy is praying on the innocents of people who are looking for answers – especially in such a time that we live, that is continually giving us “road signs” that we are indeed living in the Last Days. He knows that President Obama is disliked by many, and he uses this to his advantage. When you have a sensationalist like Sid Roth, it should really raise a red flag in Believers when you unite what is suppose to be “Truth” – in that he has Rabbi Jonathan Cahn on his show – go figure.

    In closing, I don’t buy it. Let’s just stick to Scripture – having the Holy Spirit as our guide to rightly divide the Word of God – and not the sensational ideas of man, who uses the calamities of man to support his theory in order to sell books.

    Be careful people!

    I apologize to any I may have offended, but this is from the heart, and only my opinion.


  3. Agie- I don’t mean to be difficult, but if you carefully read the scripture I closed my post with it appears to disagree with you that what God allows is an illustration of his wrath. Those that denied him he has given up to what is mentioned in the text – the text clearly connects that giving up to his wrath. The wrath is being illustrated internally – they became futile in their thinking, their foolish hearts were darkened, God gave them up to impurity – that is the action that God is taking against those that reject who he is, the rest are the natural consequences of that abandonment. I am the first to admit though that this is not the total of God’s wrath- we all know at some point yet in the future it will be exhibited in active, world-stopping, stunning ways through the trumpets perhaps and definitely the bowls of Revelation.


  4. Well James, I find the Shemitah effect fascinating. I find it fascinating that 9/11 caused the second biggest stock market crash on 17 Sept 2001. I find it fascinating that exactly, to the day, 7 Hebrew lunar years later on 29 Sept 2008, the Dow had the biggest crash ever with 777 points. Coincidence?

    Sorry, but there are too many dots connecting here. I can not write it of as junk.


  5. OK guys thanks for your responses so far, it’s always worth tackling these things carefully. No hurt feelings, this is the reason I posted – to get some different ideas heard and perhaps a challenge to these claims. I certainly share those concerns about Rabbi Cahn and his selling the Harbinger book, it does not sit well to have a message like this and then make money from the apparent warning.

    Justasheep I think your right that we can see the apostacy clearly these days and in fact if e took the Isaiah 9:10 thing away and continued to watch faithfully as we are there won’t necessarily be any major surprises.

    Wickus has hit the nail on the head for me, it’s the actual events themselves, particularly the timing of the collapse on the two shmita’s/Schemitahs (Its becoming clear to me that my spelling of schmita may be open to interpretation!) that is so compelling.

    In other news I have read a very interesting interview by German finance minister Schauble entitled the German End Game, I’ll post on FP when I dig it up again.


  6. justasheep, I did not see it as being difficult. I asked a question. Now, I have re-read the verses and read chapters 2, and 3. I will take back my statement above and say that you had it right.

    By the way, I read the Harbinger several months ago and thought no matter the intention of Cahn, the message was/is clear from God. America is being warned. It is absolutely amazing how all those events were tied together.


  7. i have to agree with vic, james and agie. no matter the means people chose for getting the message out-it is nonetheless the message that should not be discounted because God has allowed this out for His Purpose. i can only imagine that in order to get the message in front of people it would be expensive to publish a book and get airtime to present it—-but—–if people are wrongfully profiting off of God (what’s new about that?) then i trust He has exactly the way to deal with that. i think God knows how to separate wheat from tares in this arena too so i have decided to leave that part up to Him. cahn seems to urge the right thing from what i have understood–repentance according to 2 chron 7:14 . with that said i believe—if—is the operative word. cahn stressed the if of the verse too on the video i saw (3x). we can see that america in general has thus far opted out on heeding the repentance message that 9-11 and beyond graphically proclaimed but certainly individuals can make up their own minds as to how to respond. the Spirit assists Truth beautifully-wherever it is found. too much in that book connecting the Biblical pattern of shemita etc to the modern response of God’s warning to discount in my estimation. it spoke to me-loudly-and i know others that are glad for the book speaking to them too. this is a great discussion to be having amen? will catch up with this discussion when i can because i too am interested in what everyone is thinking. God bless everyone here.


  8. I can remember that one of Herb Peters last interviews was with The Prophecy Club, a vessel that he and most if us will agree with is not the best out there. He did it after lots if prayer. Sometimes I wonder how many people having heard about Herb the first time from that interview would have shut him up as bologna because he used Prophecy Club and had a book for sale.


  9. Guys I don’t think Rob, Mr B and myself are refuting the scripture warning’s or the profund precision and timing of this all…our concern is the AGENDA behind it.

    1) It reeks of the NAR.

    2) Calling for a REVIVAL.

    3) Asking $ for the Lord’s work ( can you see Jeremiah doing that ?)

    4) I don’t see much grieving or lamenting going on .

    We all agree that we are in the great apostasy and times are so very deceptive we are commanded to adhere to the precious Holy Spirit in these times and not in man 🙂

    Mr B I will pray for you.


  10. Now I am going to make some people angry, but I can not agree with some comments made.

    1) The video message that James linked to has no mention or even suggest anything to link it to the New Apostolic Reformation. I have not found any evidence that links the message with NAR. If I am wrong, please show me.

    2) To give such a stern warning like the Harbinger and not call a nation to repentance is wrong. I have heard Cahn himself say that just like Jeremiah called Israel to repentance without success, so it will be for the US/world. I have not heard him say that the church must prepare the world for the return of Christ as the popular NAR teaching says.

    3) Cahn’s message is available for free for everyone to watch, download and share. The book does not say anything more and is merely a written account of what can be accessed for free. The Harbinger message is freely available. Nobody has to buy his book to hear the message. And if the selling of books is a sign of a false teacher, shame on Charles Bunyan, Watchman Nee, Andrew Murray and all the Christian writers in our bookshelves who gained out of the selling of their books.

    4) I don’t think there will be much grieving going on, the same as when Jeremiah warned Israel. I sincerely doubt that this message was given as a call for repentance or revival. I see this as a final warning of what is to come.

    I have done many hours of prayer and internet research as I do not want to be deceived or deceive the readers. I have failed to find any concrete evidence linking this message to any NAR movements. I did find some NAR people endorsing it, but if the NAR endorse the Bible, I am not going to throw the Bible away. I did not find concrete proof that Cahn is part of the NAR. I have also found that most ministries and local churches are asking for money and that the asking for money in itself is not a sign of a false teacher. The withholding of so called spiritual truths to make money is evil. The Harbinger message is free. I have also come to the conclusion that we must evaluate the message, not the messenger. The messenger is a human who can stumble. One example of a book written by sinful stumbling men is the Bible. And before someone says I am lifting the Harbinger to the same level as Scripture, I am not. I am just trying to make a point.

    Mr Baldy, I usually have lots of respect for your comments, but In all honesty I think you did not even watch the videos. I am sure that if you have listened to them, you could have had your doubts, but you would not have just thrown out the baby with the bath water in such an aggressive manner. And I do not understand how you linked Pearl Harbor with 9/11 and Isa 9:10. Nobody is saying a disaster is a harbinger. There is a clear message in the video/book.

    I am also praying for your pain. May the Lord touch you.


  11. Okay guys please help me out here then. Am I misunderstanding what he is saying then?

    I watch the first clip and he is calling for revival in America – his prayer from the point 54: 18 seems to indicate that we should be READY for this ( revival ?) also the ( NAR ) buzz words…”may we take our place, taking up our mantle” remind me much of the Elijah List people .

    As time permits I will listen to the others and also need to seek the Lord for spiritual discernment.

    Boetie yes my concern is his association with people like Sid Roth and can’t seem to get this nagging red flag I have in my spirit. I pray that the Lord will rebuke me if I’m in error.


  12. Sus, same here. I do not want to be in error, you know that. This following is in short what he says in the prayer:

    “We pray for America Lord. We pray for revival and that we may be ready when it comes.”

    What he says is not wrong as it can not be wrong to pray for a nation to return to the Lord. BUT if he does have a hidden agenda and does follow the NAR false revival, then it is wrong. But now the question remains; if this message is from the Lord, must we through the message out because the messenger prays for revival? I sincerely doubt that Cahn is not a Christian.

    Guys, please don’t take this the wring way, but I sometimes feel like unplugging the internet, switch of the radio and just read the Bible. It seems like there are no good preachers out there anymore. Were is the time when one could just listen to a sermon without dissecting all the words and motives of the preacher? It is a sad world we are living in.


  13. I have to be upfront and let you all know I haven’t read the book yet (though I have no particular trouble with someone publishing a book and making a living or supporting a ministry by selling books), I’ve read a number of interviews with Cahn, and tried to listen to him speak on a few different recordings – including some of what was linked above. There is a LOT to listen to though. I’ve done my best to get a sense of what he is writing about and the claims he makes. I will say honestly – I can’t reject his desire to bring a warning to America, this country (and every other) needs it.
    In my search for info on this book, I did find this review that was reposted at, a site I have found to be be very sound and insightful with respect to discernment.

    The author there doesn’t condemn the book or what Cahn is teaching, but makes some worthwhile observations about Cahn’s approach to biblical interpretation and allusions to the United States in prophecy. I would encourage you to take 10 minutes to read his comments and prayerfully consider how we should respond to these types of prophetic claims.


  14. Vic – re your comment about unplugging and reading your Bible. I can’t argue with that at all, I think it would be profitable for all of us. Regarding there being no good pastors, it sometimes seems that way since there are so many wolves out there. That is why I am thankful for my brother and sisters in Christ at my local church, on this site, and some of the other writers out there who invest much of their lives in researching and writing about discerning truth from error (those bloggers in their parents basements that many of the seeker-driven mega-church pastors like to complain about). We have to remember though that all pastors, even if not wolves are still just men and they will err eventually, inevitably. I love my pastor- his heart for the Lord is contagious and his preaching is sound, often challenging and most importantly focused on teaching us directly from scripture. I know a day will come that I need to extend that man grace for some error that he’s taught or sin that infiltrates our church. I think the key is how we respond to it – biblically, and to put ourselves at risk with genuine believers knowing we can get hurt now and then, but knowing that’s how Christ builds his church. This is why it’s so important that we unplug regularly to study the scriptures (I’m saying this as much to me, as I need to hear it) and spend time alone with the Lord, so that we know when we can keep our tent pitched within a fellowship of believers and know when the Lord is leading us somewhere else.

    On a side note – I’m going to do my best to stay unplugged this weekend while I’m on a men’s retreat with our church. It’s killing me that it was timed for this weekend since it’s at the same time as the Eurozone summit. Keep me in your prayers that I’ll have some fruitful time alone with the Lord and he’ll use this weekend to direct my steps.


  15. i hear hearts here with very right concerns but wonder if we are not letting the whole deception thing (real for sure) distract from the truth that is nonetheless out there and for free as vic pointed out. message and messenger are 2 separate things. balaam spoke True Prophecy yet he himself proved false as we read in God’s Word. same thing here?…..(i am not sure either way but am sure of the warning given so why try to in any way prevent it? God can stop it if He so chooses). noah was an end time witness-abraham brought up the 50 (down to 10) before the Lord before God judged sodom and gomorrah. was abraham’s heart wrong for the request? is it wrong for this warning and call to go out for repentance then?) vic it is right to point out jeremiah the prophet who saw no hearers and obeyers before exile but God made sure the warning and call to repentance went out afterall. God can guard hearts and minds to know what is real and what is false–we pray and warn and then leave the issue to Him that He can protect his Message to bring hearts to it however few or many there are–the Lord knows those that are His as i read in 2 tim this morning. personally i think some discernment ministries–who have their place certainly-begin sometimes to take their message and elevate it too high at the expense of what God is doing to call out people from out of ministries that do not have it all correct in doctrine perhaps but still need to hear from Him. we need to be careful alright. God’s does a much better job of sorting (wheat from tares) out then any one of us. (and yes mr baldy you have our prayers). thanks vic for posting this. it is needful.


  16. Vic Wickus,

    You stated this:

    “Mr Baldy, I usually have lots of respect for your comments, but In all honesty I think you did not even watch the videos. I am sure that if you have listened to them, you could have had your doubts, but you would not have just thrown out the baby with the bath water in such an aggressive manner.”

    I’m glad that you have your opinion, as I have mind. I did watch the videos. This man is full of it, and I’m sorry that you don’t see it. I don’t care if his message is free, because in the end it is not. Someone has had to spend some sort of time and effort in order to put forth this message that he is carrying out. It’s like anything else that comes across as being “free” – there is a cost. After all Freedom isn’t free.

    If you can’t understand why I am so aggressive with what I deem to be false prophets – then you have not come to know me over the past few years. I will not apologize for it. Again, this is my opinion about this man’s message.

    Thank you all for praying for me and the pain that I am enduring.


  17. Please hear my heart guys….from the very first day I started posting @ at FP ( 2006 ) the message has been one of deep grieving for the USA’s soon judgment…I am in 100% agreement to the MESSAGE but have a red flagg in my spirit of the ” revival” message.

    I promise to make this my last post on the subject. I just receive the daily e-mail from a pastor that has been called OUT and this is what blessed me today and confirmed my concern. ( he has no idea of what is being discussed here ) 🙂

    “God will not continue to pour out His Spirit or send any kind of revival to people who still remain in a religious system that God has judged and called us to come out of. Any real pouring out of God’s Spirit must result in a people being called out; God is not the author of something that requires people to go back to Babylon in order to benefit from it themselves, or to bring Life to it. On the contrary, the very idea of “revival” is frequently used by Churchianity in a desperate attempt to breathe new life into something that is clearly dead. It is dead because it is under the judgment of God. He has not called us to bring it back to life again; on the contrary, His judgment says, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their dead” (Mt.8:22).

    While God has certainly been patient with His people and has even blessed efforts to reform or revive, it has always been with an understanding that He was calling those who had been reformed and revived to come out and be obedient to Him. The prophetic declaration is to “come out of [Babylon], My people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues” (Rev. 18:4).”


  18. To Vic Wickus, and others……

    Please listen carefully to this man’s message – listen to what he is proclaiming. I am in too much pain to dissect and go through all the details of his message, as I usually do when I see a red flag – but when I am feeling better, I PROMISE I will give my opinion. Not that it may matter or mean anything…but I just don’t feel that the Holy Spirit is dealing with this man as he says that He is.



  19. I think what’s bothering me so much about Cahn is that what he is saying is mostly true- its that little bit where breaks the rules of good solid exegesis (which there is a solid biblical basis for this being the way Jesus and the writers of the new testament interpreted scripture, in the scriptures) that is what really bothers me. I can’t help being uncomfortable with him applying scriptures that are plainly about Israel – and calling the US a modern sort of Israel. It’s tiny little things like that and that that little bit of “not true” that makes want to run away from what he’s teaching.


  20. Praying for you Mr. B, must be terrible to be out of action like that. I’d like to hear what you’ve got to say in good time – take it easy.


  21. When Christians Engage In Blood Sport
    By Jan Markell
    Jan Markell

    I need to apologize. I founded and direct an organization that could be called a Christian discernment ministry. We contend for the faith as we are instructed to do in the book of Jude. We’re busy. Doctrine is askew today. False teachers are plentiful. Wolves are slinking around the sheep and devouring them. We try to discern the times, and we even name the names of those who, in our perception, are in error.

    Every such outfit tries to do these things in a balanced way. Well, some do and, come to think of it, too many do not. We try to remember that reputations are at stake. Criticisms can quickly turn into character assassinations. Human nature seems to love to tear down rather than build up, so discernment is a balancing act. To be honest, if self-control isn’t exercised, “discerning” can become a blood sport. Some who tear down seem to build themselves up in their own eyes and the whole process becomes addictive.

    So why am I apologizing? Some in the discernment crowd are having a field day over something that may be God’s final warning to America. It may even be a final warning to individuals to get right with God. It’s a wake-up call to the church. I am referring to Jonathan Cahn’s book “The Harbinger” and the related film produced by Joseph Farah, “The Isaiah 9:10 Judgment.”

    If you haven’t read the book or viewed the DVD, Cahn takes nine warnings to ancient Israel and uses them as a signal to America. Israel was warned. America is being warned. Israel shook a fist at God, and America may follow suit – but some, like Cahn, are trying to stop the train wreck.

    What is it about a warning that stirs controversy? Jonathan Cahn is not marching up and down Main Street wearing a sandwich board that says, “Repent, America.” He has connected some very mysterious dots on a map that started on 9/11. Each dot is a harbinger. They make perfect sense. The Ark door is going to be slammed shut again. God wants none to perish. It says in the book of Daniel that some mysteries would be sealed up until the end and then they would be revealed. Could the “Harbinger” message be one of them? I think so.

    But to the hypercritical and some modern-day Pharisees, Cahn’s hermeneutics aren’t quite right. He hasn’t fully dotted every “I” and crossed every “T,” they claim. Additionally, the message of “The Harbinger” is unique enough that it doesn’t fit into the way God usually does things. Imagine that. God outside of a box! To be honest, I’d prefer God in a box, too, but I’ve had to come to terms with the fact that He just doesn’t always work that way! He is creative.

    John the Revelator had to deal with this. Imagine the poor guy stuck on an island trying to connect the dots of the vision he was given. It was a classic case of “Lord, choose somebody else!” But there was no Internet back then so that critics could jump on board and accuse John of bad hermeneutics. Lucky for him. They would have had a field day, because to this day they are having a field day over the book of Revelation! For centuries scholarly old men have laughed at the profound words in the last book of the Bible and brushed aside its warnings. Some have said through the ages that it is too complicated, too mysterious. We must leave it alone. We leave it alone at our own peril.

    Jonathan Cahn, a Messianic Jew, is a 21st century John or Jeremiah but in the right sense! He is not some out-of-order “prophet.” He got stuck with unraveling a code given to him by God. Cahn himself calls it, “mind-blowing.” Then Ishmael and Isaac meet as Joseph Farah, of Arab heritage, who enters the scene to produce one of the most brilliant films you will ever see, giving the visual effect to further the “Harbinger” message. Wait! This union just might be of God.

    So I apologize for those “discerning ministries” who have concluded that what just might be a somber final call for individuals and America is out of bounds. They call Cahn’s book and the companion DVD “inane,” “preposterous,” “fallacious,” “blasphemy,” a “lying prophecy,” and much more! One critic denigrates Cahn’s character with a derogatory reference to his Jewish chutzpah. What I’m reading and hearing from these older scholarly wonks is that they don’t get it that this is a Jewish thing for such a time as this.

    I have one more issue: Not one of these men who are criticizing – and may I say even bashing – made the slightest effort to contact Cahn and dialogue with him. And in that they run in a discernment crowd, Matthew 18 just must be on their mind now and then! How quickly we forget. Shoot first – follow protocol second!

    And that’s why what some discernment outfits do is blood sport. For that I apologize. Profusely. I am ashamed. I don’t want to be known more for what I attack than what I build up. This has taught me a lesson for which I am deeply appreciative. As a representative of the “discernment community,” I apologize to Cahn and Farah for what is flying around right now. How, when and why did repentance become controversial? It’s such a simple theme. It’s the theme of the Bible from the opening verse to the last verse.

    Forgive us, guys. Some folks are entering the Ark because of your work. Many will be eternally thankful.

    Jan Markell ————i appreciate her humility in her discernment ministry-would be good if others would take the same consideration to heart. please know i am not saying that is what is going on here at unsealed but this article of hers does highlight the need to stay gracious as we work to understand what the Lord has for us all. God bless all of you as we regard each other in our individual walk with Jesus-loving and admonishing each other in His Spirit. i love you folks here….and dear Lord Jesus, please give mr. baldy comfort and release from his pain. touch and heal him by the power of Your name Jehovah Raphah-the Lord our Healer. amen


  22. I’ve never been so scared in my life……( not in a ” fearful ” sorta way )

    I’m sorry guys but you all know that I’ve never been one to ” follow the crowd”. In my walk with Christ I’ve forsaken all for the cause of Christ…family …friends…. fellowships where clearly compromise and deception set in. (Please I am not saying this about us here so please don’t accept it as such)

    I can’t deny the red flag I have in my spirit….am I here to please man or God? I’m not saying that Mr B, Mr Sheep and myself are the “be and end all ” of having a fine gift of discernment but are we not warned that in the end time the deception would be so subtle that……I can’t even type those words.

    My point is that there is a major set up happening for the false messiah a false revival and a false spirit and I for one refuse to ignore this nagging in my spirit.

    Take note of these buzz words in the clip here- under- ” Holy Apostles”, “Time to save the lost”, “Hiers of Apostles”, “Mantle of the Apostles”, “End time revival” and the ” Gate “.

    Going to take some time off to seek the Lord.

    I love you guys…but I love God more 🙂


  23. Andre’, thanks for posting this article by Jan Markell. I had a discussion with a friend of mine about this blood sport subject, but we just called it a Christian witch hunt. I know I am sticking out my head my saying this and some people will see it in the wrong way.

    Friends, the great apostasy is here and it is real. I am a great advocate against the NAR, TBN, GodTv, faith movement and all these deceptions in the name of Jesus. I will never endorse these movements or teachings. Hisown has done an excellent job in showing the error in what Jonathan Cahn may believe. I agree, stay away from the apostle movements and such like it. But I have also heard Cahn pray and proclaiming that none can be saved unless they repent and get washed by the blood if Messiah Jesus. So were do we draw the line? Is this man evil? Does he purposely try to deceive and get people thrown in hell? I sincerely doubt it. He is a sinner saved by grace just like us but it looks like the only people who accepted him and his Harbinger message is the NAR. Friends, the Lord showed us that there is not going to be an end time worldwide revival, but a few years ago I did await that same revival as that is what the majority of the church believes. And they had the scripture to proof it in Joel. Today I know it to be false as the Lord opened my eyes and shed light on my understanding. Can he not do the same for Cahn?

    In the end it was never my intention to discus the messenger, Jonathan Cahn, but rather the message, the Harbinger. It looks like I failed. I still believe the Harbinger is a final warning from God. I believe that with all my heart. If the NAR turns it into a revival message, it is their problem and they will be accountable. I think it is a fantastic way how the Lord got this warning out to all. He used the biggest Christian group in the USA/world (NAR) to spread it. These are the people who believe that they are preparing the world for the return of Christ. These are the people who believe that the future is so bright that they have to wear shades. And these are the people who are getting warned that destruction is coming. Not prosperity, but destruction. The book is read by many who has never heard that God is going to judge the world. It is being read by people who will never visit a site like this. God is warning the apostate church and the citizens of the world. Nobody will be able to say “I did not know”.

    So friends, I am sorry if I presented the subject in a wrong way. Mr Baldy, sorry if I came across in a harsh way. I know you and your passion for the truth. Sus Cole, I hear your warnings about the messenger, but I can not for the life of me silence the message. And yes, if the Lord does shine His light on me and I see error in the message, I will come out and admit it. But for now I see it as God’s warning to people who does not care about prophecy and the end times. Surely no one will be without excuse.


  24. vic thank you-you absolutely spoke my heart as well. my heart sees the big picture view of this subject as you do. this is why the Lord uses this site–we submit to God first and to each other that we may all be changed by the Truth of God’s Word and sanctified by His Spirit to learn His Heart and His Ways. the gifts of the Holy Spirit in each are wonderfully on display here and i love allll of you for submitting to Him to be useful in His Hands.


  25. Quick question ( or two ) for those that have read the book.

    Is there any mention of the USofA being referred too as the ” New Israel” and are there any ” DOMINION THEOLOGY and “KINGDOM NOW” underlying tones? Meaning WE CAN TAKE AMERICA BACK FOR GOD – America being the ” gateway” to this new thing that God is doing? ( Please don’t take my head off by asking, I have not read the book )

    The reason my asking is I was sent this today.( I’m not endorsing any ministry – just sharing the article hereunder )

    Did Jesus not warn us that they will KILL us thinking they are doing God a service? Well not to go into too much detail but I’ve been ” killed ” (with words ) many times by those that ” love God” each time I’ve dared tried to share my concern.

    Guys all I know is every single time I’ve traveled to any one of the States over the past few years ( constantly meeting new people ) there seems to be the very same spirit ( attitude ) in those I come across. Please hear my heart it’s not that Iv’e got anything personal against the one that is “proud of one’s heritage” or am anti- american ( as I’ve been accused of countless times ) but there is a serious lack of humility and sincerity in those that claim to love God yet deny Him with their ” defiant ,” I AM entitled “- little ” god” attitudes that defy any call to ” suffering for Christ or dying to self.

    Quick testimony- the Lord gave me these verses for my persecutors ( from within the American church )

    Jam 5:6 — Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

    Luk 6:22 — Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake.

    Jhn 16:2 — They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

    Mat 5:10 — Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.



    Today I’ve just got my answer and am so thank-full for now I understand…the ” why”!!

    Praise God … it was not just in my ” head” LOL 🙂

    No stoning Coll allowed !


  26. hello sweet coll. i do not know of anything that smacked of new israel or replacement or dominion theology in the book. have my copy highlighted throughout and saw none of that. it was very straightforward a warning and yes a call to repent but that was stressed as the “if” of 2 chron 7:14. but we see that america has opted to raise her fist in arrogance so america is under judgment precisely because she has turned her back on Who founded her (the judaeo christian heritage from the Lord Who let this nation come to be). the spirit and attitude you describe is so thick you can cut it with a knife. so many in america think that the “pull yourselves up by your bootstraps” way of thinking is God blessed and righteous–(no wonder in this spiritual climate a mormon can be called a christian today) they could not be further from the Truth! hearts of christians (using the term loosely) should be broken over the spiritual condition of this nation but-by and large-they are not–God’s hedge of protection is down amen? many of this mindset-if they do call for repentance-do so thinking it a “stop-gap” measure so God can bless us again! God is not mocked and you and i and many here know that God will have nothing of that lip-service. there is only a remnant of the population that follow the Lord in reverent trust and obedience-the day to day laying one’s life down. (if you love Me keep my commandments goes unheeded being the proof that it is not His Strength by His Spirit that moves them). jonah says: those who regard worthless idols forsake their own Mercy. tells it like it is amen? (the book only reinforced that in me).


  27. Cited from the text by another reviewer:

    “Israel was unique among nations in that it was conceived and dedicated at its foundation for the purposes of God.” . . . “Those who laid America’s foundations saw it as a new Israel, an Israel of the New World. And as with ancient Israel, they saw it in covenant with God.” (TH, 19)

    Also see page 193
    “This mutual identification is confirmed by George Washington’s appearance in the dream of Solomon’s dedication of the Jewish Temple. (TH, 193) For applying “The Isaiah 9:10 Effect” to America, this identification is crucial. But for a number of reasons, biblical and theological, I believe such an identification to be mistaken.”

    In reference to Cahn’s citation of 2 Chronicles 7:14 on page 222:
    “So often this conditional promise is employed by Christian leaders in an attempt to invoke national repentance in America so that blessing might be restored. But these words were spoken to Israel, not to America. Israel, not the United States, is “My people” (2 Chronicles 7:14). That is where the interpretation lies. The application in this text is the church, not America. The church needs to humble itself and pray. Then the Lord may be inclined to heal the church and perhaps through the church, our nation. But like other Dominionists, Cahn applies this verse to America. (TH, 222)”

    In the interest of transparency, I still haven’t read the book myself. From several of the reviews I’ve read now, it seems Cahn never comes out and jumps on the bandwagon of dominionism, but he comes frighteningly close to a replacement theology which should be a huge red flag to many here. I’d ask that those that have the book check out the citations above and let us know if the reviewer was making an honest and fair appraisal of the author’s statements.


  28. Don’t have my book anymore. Sorry, I loaned it out so I can’t look up anything.

    So. Been reading the posts for the last few days and wow. From what I understand, Hisown, Baldy and Justasheep are cautious, or against the book/author, but hasn’t read the book. Is this correct? If so, there’s no point in debating or talking about it if the other side doesn’t read it. Duh!!! It’s just going round in circles.

    I’m personally not arguing doctrine or theology or judging someone’s motive, faith or character. I’m simply interested in the facts surrounding the events of 9/11, the financial crisis and how it relates to the Bible, and it does relate to the Bible. It’s message is significant. I didn’t mind buying a book to find out. It’s on the New York Times bestseller list! Even my mother-in-law read it!! lol

    There are several interesting history lessons inside such as: Did you know that the New York Stock Exchange was formed with the “Buttonwood Agreement”? The NYSE was formed under a buttonwood tree that is a ………sycamore.

    Even being an American, I had forgotten that the capital was once New York City. And right after George Washington’s inauguration, they proceeded to St. Paul’s Chapel, which still stands today of which is a miracle in itself, to pray for the new fledgling country. The church owned quite a bit of land then, of which Ground Zero sat. And then during 9/11, the only tree in the area happened to be a sycamore that sat at St. Paul’s Chapel. It was blown over and therefore also shielded the church. Only a window was cracked from the blow of 2 skyscrapers collapsing.

    I am not doing the facts justice here. There are SO MANY connecting things that give a clear message from God, that He intentionally put the message within it and His fingerprints are found all over. Just read the book or watch the DVD (the DVD is much better) and you’ll know whether we’re off our rocker or not.




  29. hi justasheep. i heard as a matter of fact a sermon of cahn’s at his church in new jersey and he makes real distinction between israel and america and synagogue and church but there is a spiritual example/principal that applies as he refers to in paul’s writings and in other references in the bible. if you have not heard his actual sermons or read the book you may not know this. he is jewish–he is all for God fulfilling all of His promises of old testament and in the prophecies and revelation to israel the nation. i listened to the entire thing listening for something out of order about that issue and found nothing. maybe i missed something perhaps you would find—but is it not true that 1 john 1:9 has the same sense as 2 chron 7:14? (restored fellowship with God)–the born-again believer is a “spiritual jew” according to paul in romans and hebrews. here is the link i heard from cahn if you are interested to hear it. –it is the one titled mysteries (of the 4 videos posted at that link) that addresses exactly your concerns—– he makes a point of saying there is never a replacement of israel-ever. i heard none of that. as for what america’s founders thought about new israel (the masonic stuff promotes this) all i can say is many people have had bad theology for a long time and by Grace God still did good to and for them–in spite of them-in spite of any of us. many parallels in Scripture-new and old-that do not exchange verbatim but still can have some application. the parallel to the book of joshua in the old testament is the book of ephesians for example. Wisdom shows us the contrasts and similarities from genesis to revelation that complete the whole and we know only God can impart that. a jewish christian teacher i heard years ago taught that the old testament is the new testament concealed and the new testament is the old testament revealed. much to glean amen?


  30. To Karen.

    You said ” From what I understand, Hisown, Baldy and Justasheep are cautious, or against the book/author, but hasn’t read the book. Is this correct? If so, there’s no point in debating or talking about it if the other side doesn’t read it. Duh!!! It’s just going round in circles.”

    I’ve watched all his clips- like duh!! ( see how that sounds ) I’m not being funny 😦

    I have a right as a child of God NOT to read his book( just a personal thing I’ve got going on since the day Christ saved me in ’93 ) and have been red flagged in my spirit so please understand that is my choice.

    May the Lord lead and guide us all in these dark days that lay ahead and as Rob mentioned we have tuned a corner, we sure have.

    Love and blessings to you 🙂


  31. Ps one last point.We don’t need to rely on a man or buy ” books ” to understand what is going on….we have the Word of God and His precious indwelling Holy Spirit to lead and guide us to ALL TRUTH amen 🙂

    I can just see Moses, , Noah , Elijah, Jeremiah , Jonah , and all saying ” okay guys so where is the closet store to buy that book so that I KNOW what’s next” LOL.

    Jhn 16:13 — Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    Karen since the day the Lord called me to this strange land , I’ve been grieved in my spirit for what the Holy Spirit was affirming…it has been 14 long years and I too just want to go home, please understand that my heart and spirit is grieved beyond anything I am able to express in words.

    I will be the first to apologize if the Lord shows me I’m in error.


  32. Hisown–thanks for the link to endtimes pilgrim article–very good. things we really need to be aware of that wear a “christian” cloak but is not God’s heart at all–working in the spirit of anti-christ trying to leaven the whole lump………………………..even so-come quickly Lord Jesus.


  33. Guys not to “harp” on the subject but the Lord has given me the most amazing peace and I’ve found the answer this morning to the ” nagging red flag” .

    A few weeks ago the Lord divinely placed a sister in Christ into my life that not only did she have the very same concerns as all of us do here , but she seemed to have a very , very fine gift of discernment.

    As Christ is my witness I did not share my concern with her on this topic ( she does not even know of our little place here ) and asked her to please pray about listening to Jonathan’s videos. She e-mailed me this morning and shared her concern with this* link. I praise God for her as He knew just how much I needed a female contender in my life 🙂

    Out of all the apologetic ministries this is the soundest I have found and funny thing is I didn’t even think to go ” there” . I love how the Lord works so that my lips may testify, the Lord is so faithful and has promised to KEEP His own from deception.


    I love you all dearly in Christ and pray that the Lord will show you how much I appreciate your labor of love.


  34. Well I have been following this for many days now. I have to agree, and no I did not read the book but heard about it and checked out all the things that have been discussed, with Mr. Baldy and Hisown. I do believe that all of you know how very much I am not led to read or listen to any men’s books, sermons, etc. I have the holy spirit, and the bible is easy to read and understand. This whole world is going to go, as the bible tells us, Jesus is returning as he left, and bringing an end to this age, as he told his disciples.

    Act 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
    Act 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
    Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
    Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
    Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
    Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
    Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
    Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
    Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
    Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    I do know the history of this country, and yes there is much going on here that is bad, and there is much going on all over this world that is bad. My feeling is that before the time Acts 1:11 happens we will see much destruction all over this messed up world.

    Stand on the only foundation that won’t be shaken, and that is our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth and his words. They are sufficient for all things, I don’t need any man’s books.


  35. I’ve been reading the posts for the last several days. Haven’t had much to add to what I’ve already said. It reminds me slightly of a round-robin email I sent to members of a church I once attended about the dangers of dominionism. I attached a link to the email to a website explaining the herecy of dominionism but I failed to check the beliefs of the people writing up the warning. One member ripped me apart over the link in a “reply to all” response and the actual message was missed over my immaturity. I never responded as it took a lot out of me – I was way out of my depth in challenging this thinking at the time. The attack on me was effectively a defence of this herecy that was advancing through the “Discipling Nations” book, the author of which I personally emailed a few times. I ended up feeling very low as not only did my attempt at revealing this herecy end up being ignored but I was involved in causing a divisive issue rather than effectively guiding and edifying the church.

    I’m not convinced Jonathan Cahn is preaching a bad message on behalf of some apostate movement, but equally I don’t need in any way to absorb his teachings at all. It does take someone to draw attention to events otherwise we would never know. The principle of sola scriptura should be our guide. As such I haven’t even read the Harbinger book as its not a format I would choose to absorb scriptural truth from (perhaps I shold have put in a disclaimer). I’ve not heard him state that America replaces Israel in fact I believe he states the opposite. We have scripture to guide us and the story of Israel is there to benefit us as individuals. What does God do when we are unfaithful, what does God do when we are faithful? We understand this through the story of the people of Israel this type of parallel is not replacement theology.

    We can’t all be expected to carry out every function of the church, hence we have watchmen watching all types of events from ENI to Gog Magog and end time apostacy.

    My intention was to draw peoples attention to the facts surrounding the events not encourage theological novelties.

    Coll and the others who have challenged: keep up your watch, its important for us. We need to work effectively as one body in harmony, eyes and ears working together.


  36. Weird thing is I have not even read Herb’s book and what I find so fascinating is there have been no red flags in my spirit 🙂 Did he ever push an ” agenda” I think not 🙂

    I love that the Lord has promised to leave us our ” teacher” and it is Him that we are to rely on in these days of great deception.

    Jhn 16:13 — Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    Satan comes as a angel of light right 😦

    As you guys all know I’m very cautious ( because of my preacher JW dad ) and have come to ” fine tune” the verse – Jhn 10:5 — And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

    James thank-you for the sweet word’s of exhortation, I so needed that today.


  37. The Harbinger: Jonathan Cahn Responds To T.A McMahon

    By Jonathan Cahn

    I have been blessed by the service provided by various discernment ministries such as that of T.A. McMahon. But in reading McMahon’s: The Harbinger-A Matter of Critical Discernment, I am reminded of the downside – the dangers that such ministries easily fall into: namely, the tendency to attack that which is of the Lord just as readily and just as erroneously as others accept that which is not, the tendency to come against anything that appears to be outside one’s theological box, and the error of thinking that one is doing God and His kingdom a favor by enthusiastically firing rounds of ammunition at His own troops.

    Beside the Point, But…

    I’m glad T.A. McMahon finds The Harbinger to be a “clarion call” “sincere” and “one with which all Christians might agree.” As for the comments regarding style, dialogue, wanting more development of characters, more drama, etc., I guess I should feel honored to get an artistic review from him, but the purpose of The Harbinger is not entertainment, but to give warning. Nor does it strive after any genre but has been generally seen as being of its own unique nature. As narratives are used throughout the Bible to convey truth, The Harbinger’s narrative is similarly and simply, a vessel to convey the mysteries and the warning. McMahon is entitled to his preferences in style, but one only has to look at and beyond to see that most readers in America strongly disagree and describe The Harbinger in such terms as “riveting,” “spellbinding,” and have been unable to put it down, many, and in many reviews, have called it the best book they ever read outside of the Bible. As far as its story or narrative part is concerned, hardly a week has gone by where I haven’t received an offer that it be made into a motion picture. But all this, of course, is very much beside the point and the message which will now be addressed.

    The Larger Picture

    What would be missed if one only read McMahon’s article is that The Harbinger has not only become a national bestseller, it has also been endorsed, praised, and hailed by born again believers across America, from every background from Evangelical, Baptist, Charismatic, etc. including pastors, Bible teachers, seminary professors, Bible scholars, experts in biblical hermeneutics. If The Harbinger were really as McMahon believes, it would not be so strongly endorsed and hailed by so many solid Bible expositors with expertise in biblical hermeneutics, which has to be admitted, is much greater and deeper than his own. His objections, I would suggest, arise out of a very major fundamental error, misperception, and confusion about what The Harbinger is actually saying.

    Central Confusion #1: What The Harbinger Does and Does Not Say

    The central criticisms in the review is that 1)The Harbinger presents as definitive fact that the United States as a nation in covenant with God and 2) That everything else in the book depends on this assertion. The short and simple answer is: The Harbinger never declares that America is in covenant with God It does note that America’s founders did believe this, did consecrate it to God, and did establish the nation after the pattern of ancient Israel. This becomes of note in view of America’s following in the same pattern of Israel’s apostasy and, now, in the appearing of the signs and warnings of its judgment as revealed in The Harbinger – Thus God can use that pattern to speak to such a nation. But even if The Harbinger had asserted the idea as fact, which it does not, none of the mysteries or revelations within the book are dependent on any such premise. Thus this central charge is groundless.

    Central Confusion #2: What The Harbinger Explicitly Does Say

    The review’s other criticisms concern the Scriptures and biblical signs of judgment revealed in the book. The one set of criticisms argues that things like Isaiah 9:10 and the Shemitah were about and for ancient Israel and not America. The problem is this: The Harbinger says the very same thing. This is one of the review’s fundamental misunderstandings. The Harbinger never says that Isaiah was prophesying of America, or that the Shemitah was for America, etc. etc. What it does say is very different – namely that this ancient pattern of judgment is now recurring in America, and in a stunningly precise way – and that God is able to use such patterns and signs to warn America, a nation in rapid moral spiritual apostasy and in danger of judgment. In fact the distinction is very clearly stated in the book in the very same chapter (The Oracle) wherein the Scripture first appears:

    “So what does all this have to do with America?”

    “The prophecy, in its context, concerned ancient Israel.

    But now, as a sign, it concerns America.”

    This is light years removed from the first assertion. And all its resulting and dependent arguments (Isaiah is not speaking of America, the Shemitah applies to Israel, etc) entirely miss the point. Thus, this second fundamental assertion is as groundless as the first.

    Ancient Assyrians in Lower Manhattan

    The article’s other set of criticisms falls along the lines of taking issue with the harbingers or warning signs, themselves, on the basis that there are differences with their manifestation and the original text. By such logic, taken to its conclusion, one could only accept the validity of the connections revealed in The Harbinger if, on 9/11, America were attacked by ancient Assyrians, if the Twin Towers were made Middle Eastern clay brick, and if American leaders responded to the attack speaking perfect ancient Hebrew.

    The problem here follows the previous confusion – The Harbinger is not presenting these signs as being the contextual fulfillments of prophecy, but as signs of warning and judgment. The hermeneutics of Isaiah in context to ancient Israel are consistently upheld. Thus the issues raised and measures employed in McMahon’s article are, in the first case, misunderstood, and in the second, misapplied. The question is not whether what is happening in America comprises the contextual fulfillment of prophecy, but rather whether God can use and is, in fact, using the same biblical patterns and progressions of judgment and the same biblical signs of warning as given to ancient Israel to now warn America.

    If one wants to attempt to dissect or deconstruct them, just as anti-missionaries do with the claims of Jesus as Messiah, and as critics of the Bible do with Scripture, one may attempt to do so as McMahon attempts to do with The Harbinger (i.e. 9/11 wasn’t as bad as the first Assyrian attack, should it be singular or plural, etc.) – my job though is to sound the warning. But while it’s been brought – some clarifications: The figure of the tower is neither essential nor required by the message, but simply stands as a symbol for the nation’s campaign to rebuild stronger than before the attack (a reality not in dispute and which matches the ancient case). And, yes, the tree that was planted at the corner of Ground Zero does actually and absolutely constitute a Hebrew Erez, and it’s the exact same word used in the ancient scripture. It should also be noted that the message doesn’t depend on any one manifestation of signs. It is rather that all the harbingers cited, and the progression, have in one form or another manifested. Even the article, with all its criticism, concedes, by default, that the similarities exist.

    Washington, Solomon, & Caiaphas

    McMahon charges that to see a connection between Washington and Solomon and to speak of the prayers offered up on America’s inaugural day as a consecration is near blasphemy on the grounds of Washington’s non-Christian connections. This again misses the point. When the Gospel records that a prophetic word came through the mouth of Caiaphas, it wasn’t about Caiaphas, but about the word spoken. Neither is it about Washington – but about what took place on America’s seminal day. The fact remains that on America’s first day as a fully-formed nation, its first government gathered in prayer to consecrate its future to God – and did so on a most significant ground of earth.

    Attacking The Publisher

    As to the criticisms of the book’s publisher (Frontline, CharismaMedia), I don’t believe this has any place, much less, significance in such a review – except to illustrate one of the dangers present in some discernment ministries, namely that of guilt by association combined with broad-stroke deligitimization. The fact is, The Harbinger could have been published by any number of publishers, and most publishers put out a wide variety of books which some or many will find objectionable. But it was the Lord who brought The Harbinger to Frontline of CharismaMedia. What is disparaged in a few strokes of the computer keys is a Christian publishing house made up of men and women who though, no more perfect than the critic, love the Lord and seek to fulfill His purposes with sincerity of heart. (The Harbinger was actually brought to Frontline in an extremely dramatic, far more than natural, and “out of the box” way – something I’d be more than happy to share at any time).

    What Did Not Appear In McMahon’s Article

    Arguments may often obscure more than they reveal. Not that a reviewer can cover everything, but the reader of such a review would have little or no idea of the central facts contained in The Harbinger. These include the fact that the very Scripture that binds together all these harbingers, the verse that foreshadows national judgment, and the vow that was proclaimed by Israel after its first warning of judgment was actually proclaimed in America on the very day after 9/11, by the Senate Majority leader on Capitol Hill – word for word.

    Nor would the reader begin to have an idea of the magnitude of what’s involved in The Mystery of the Shemitah. I do appreciate that McMahon notes: “Granted, the author does raise an intriguing date phenomenon” – But the reality behind this allusion is far greater than what is suggested – including the fact that the greatest financial collapse in American history happened to take place on the one day given in the Bible on which a nation’s financial accounts were wiped away – not just once – but twice – and seven Hebrew years apart, the exact time period ordained in the Bible for this to transpire – down to the exact biblical day. The work of one analyst who did a statistical study of the chances of just these two occurrences, and using the most conservative of criteria, it to come out to, at the very least, one in a million, three hundred and sixty one thousand, eight hundred and eighty-nine.

    These, of course, are only examples and a small part of the revelations contained within The Harbinger, more than enough to warrant any reader’s attention. What The Harbinger presents are of the most critical nature concerning a nation and those within that nation – that the reader would a great disservice to himself or herself to depend on what people say about it but must read and decide for him or herself.

    The Final Question

    McMahon is certainly entitled to his opinions, but I believe his approach and stance with regard to The Harbinger represents a low point in his ministry, and will only have the effect of sowing confusion, misperceptions, and division in the body with regard to the sounding of a critical alarm. At the same time, I have no doubt that the message of The Harbinger will continue to go forth and continue to produce what is now, in fact, actually bringing forth – repentance, salvation, and revival.

    Thus a final question:

    What if God were to sound warning to America of judgment? What might such a warning sound like?

    Believers, pastors, ministers, Bible expositors, and Christian leaders across this land believe it would sound identical to The Harbinger – and that the warning is, in fact, is sounding.

    Let the one who has ears to hear – hear.
    found this response to be exactly what my own heart first understood and still knows about what i needed to glean from cahn’s work the harbinger. everyone can discern for themselves amen?……………………….


  38. It is the right of every child of God to discern most certainly yes and this whole discussion on ” what’s the real intention behind this” has convinced me more than ever of the dangerous times we are in – period 😦

    Luk 18:8 — I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

    I love you all dearly here and pray that the Lord will keep us from the spiritual dangers we will face in the days ahead.


  39. amen. my prayer as well. at least now we heard from the man himself to determine what is of God or not. faith on the earth?–a precious and rare thing among the masses………………


  40. If I could leave just a little reminder here about some things?
    1. None of us have been “perfected” yet. God uses imperfect men, without perfect understanding, to do His will, speak his words, etc. If God waited for us to be completely perfect before He used us, then….well, you get the picture.
    2. If you will recall, back in the days of Elijah, God did something totally crazy. He sent Elijah to the brook Cherith, telling him that he was to stay there, and that He (God) would command RAVENS to feed him there. Ravens, people….unclean birds. God could have selected any number of “clean” birds to feed and sustain Elijah, (how about some doves, that would would have been better, right?) but He CHOSE to use “ravens” to bring Elijah “bread and meat in the morning, and bread and meat in the evening”. There is significant spiritual understanding here, if one will see it. There is no doubt to true children of God that we are infested with ravens right now. If you refuse to eat what is brought to you, simply because you “know” that the messenger is an “unclean animal”, then you may well starve to death.
    3. While some still do not understand the paramount and significant event of the divided Kingdom of Israel, and how TO THIS VERY DAY it affects every believer, may I remind everyone that Ezekiel’s “two sticks” (House of Israel, and House of Judah), have STILL not been united. We must go back and understand exactly what occured when the Kingdom was split in two parts, with 10 tribes going North and being “lost”, and 2 tribes in the South remaining for a time before their own captivity. Let us “rightly divide” the written word and see the terms “House of Israel” and “House of Judah” as the separate and distinict “nations” they are, instead of calling all Israel “Jews”. Once someone “gets” this understanding, and learns more truth, and dispenses with the fables that all Jews are all of Israel, then this “mess” will become quite clear. Even Jonathan Cahn is like Daniel, in that he doesn’t fully know what his message is about (even though he thinks he does). Isaiah 9:8 says “The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel”. That “word” came into America, lighted upon the United States, on 9-11 (further deterioration says “Ephraim” and the inhabitants of Samaria shall know it, showing FOUR NAMES OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL in the two verses preceding the bricks falling…. The house of Judah may be (MAY be) in the literal country of Israel, but the House of Israel is not….so….where is “Israel”? Do you know?
    4. Prepare for all of the teachings of men that have been “sold” to you to turn out to be wood, hay and stubble, and start reading ALL of the Bible, instead of men’s commentaries and sermons and semen-ary teachings, and allow the Holy Spirit ALONE to guide you into all Truth (like it says). “The sum of thy word is TRUTH”….that means all of it, taken together, fitted rightly, divided rightly, applied rightly, not just those parts we THINK we know.


  41. NOW YOU HAVE GOT ME WONDERING DAISY……or should i say, continuing to wonder,………………….mostly about “israel” and identity. i hope you are not gone for good off of this site. are you anywhere in range,…where did you go?


  42. go to youtube,..Living out prewrath during lawlessness,…by Charles Cooper,…you probably won’t regret that you did,…this guy is good! Andrea you really are such a blessing and colleen i just don’t know what to say,…i mean thanks. and tribber, geeze, you are so devoted to Gods word that it blows me away as you share the results of your diligent searching,…you are like a prospecter ole’ boy!


  43. Tony you know what dude, no matter how hard things have been on you through the years you’ve never shown resentment , anger or remorse. That says a lot and trust me it doesn’t go unnoticed 🙂 Not many people are willing to be as transparent as you and you know what, that’s a shame.Please read Ps 15 again and be blessed by the beauty of that!

    I got this from a very special friend and I hope it makes your day as it made mine 🙂


  44. Hey that’s us pre wrather’s,,,,,,waiting for the next shoe to drop.

    Btw I “no likey” cats…but this one is adorable!!!! Phhhttt! Funny as heck!


  45. “Hey that’s us pre wrather’s,,,,,,waiting for the next shoe to drop.”

    yesterday i almost typed those exact words hisown. indeed like the shoe could drop any time now. looking forward to this clip when i find a block of time uninterrupted.


  46. …that cat caused me to laugh,….very cute. thanks colleen for it all, you mean a lot to me. ready for this;……..gladness of heart is in LARGE part what i get from you…and andrea. thankk you, thank you, thank you. i not so sure as to how this all has happened but i’m really grateful to God and to you both and to” MAGGIE “…ITS THE LOVE OF GOD,soo sustaining and to the heart of it all. i feel warmth. funny how i accidentally typed 2 k’s in the word thank as i re-read and take notice,……..those are my wifes [?,..x-wifes] initials, so i see her in this comment……..tears of joy fill my eyes,…actually those used to be her initials, now they are kt! boy oh boy, what a gal,…i trust God is keeping her….for me. one never knows…///////….as for Charles Cooper, that guy is something else …right on target-so direct and unique, calm, centered and quite humorous! do you know i have had many incredible phone conversations w/ him over the years…….i’m not so sure how all that happened either,…its like talking w/ tribber…God is Good.* enjoy the day, rejoice and be glad in it! i am entirely blessed, blessed as well everyone for He delights in us and He has wonderous things in store!


  47. Tony my prayer for you is a restoration of your marriage. May the Lord bring healing to your broken heart as He draws you closer to His loving heart.

    Andre that must be of of the best 50 min I’ve invested in my life and maybe now we can understand the despondency and despair all around us as of late. There’s NO MORE justice , period! As he mentioned , men have become like dog’s. I agree 100%

    There’s is a THIRST for self- gratification yet the LUST NEVER GET”S SATISFIED!!!

    Lovers of self = self deification= the god of I, ME and MYSELF! I hate it with a passion!

    Thank-you Tony for the clip. It’s POWERFULLY TRUE and a MUST watch! Psstt try sending this to your pre trib friends and see their responses. I did. !!


  48. your welcome colleen. knew it would be appreciated…some serious talk. and, thank you for your prayers so much,….my prayers are with you as well strong lady.


Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )


Connecting to %s