A Sheep’s Thoughts About “Tribulation Saints”

This has been weighing on my heart for the past few days, so I wanted to pass this idea before the group for discernment.

I’m not attempting to articulate some new doctrine here, but I have an opinion that I wanted to share about the concept of “tribulation saints” that I hear discussed by many mainstream pre-tribulation pastors and authors. I don’t see it mentioned anywhere  specifically in scripture that a special group of people will come to Christ after the church is raptured and the tribulation has begun, but it is assumed by implication since believers are mentioned in terms of persecution during the reign of the antichrist. I am presuming that in order to get the pre-tribulation theory to harmonize with scripture, this category has been created.

My suggestion is that the “tribulation saint” is a myth, and that other scriptures can show that when God has poured out his wrath on the earth in days past there have been no survivors, but those he spared from destruction beforehand. The discussion of the Lord closing the door on the ark, and speculation about the reaction of those outside encouraged me to share what’s been on my heart.

In Gensesis 7:16, we see that it was God’s very hand that closed the Noah his family and the animals to be preserved in the ark.

 And those that entered, male and female of all flesh, went in as God had commanded him. And the LORD shut him in. (Genesis 7:16 ESV )

Later in the passage we see that, beside Noah his family and those animals that God had spared there were no survivors of God’s wrath.

 And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, livestock, beasts, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all mankind. Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died. He blotted out every living thing that was on the face of the ground, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens. They were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those who were with him in the ark. (Genesis 7:21-23 ESV)

We see it repeated 3 times in 3 subsequent verses that EVERY living creature was killed. There was not one survivor of God’s wrath. I think the repetition is meant to reinforce to us how total and complete God’s wrath is when it is poured out upon the earth.

We see another example of God’s wrath being poured out on Sodom and Gomorrah later in Genesis:

 And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. (Genesis 19:25 ESV)

and when Abram looked upon the destruction:

 And he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah and toward all the land of the valley, and he looked and, behold, the smoke of the land went up like the smoke of a furnace. (Genesis 19:28 ESV)

Again- no mention of a single survivor except Lot and his family who had been warned to leave the city before its encounter with God’s wrath.

Later, as Israel wandered in the desert, a group of men aligned with Korah to challenge Moses authority to lead the people. This rebellion again invited God’s wrath. Again, when God’s wrath is poured out – there is not one survivor, not one.

 And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the people who belonged to Korah and all their goods. So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. (Numbers 16:32-33 ESV)

Here then we have 3 clear example where God’s wrath is poured out, once on the whole earth, and twice on a specific groups of people who have rejected God’s authority. In all 3 instances there are no survivors, but those God has preserved beforehand – having Noah to build the ark, Lot to flee Sodom, and Moses and Israel to move away from the tents of Korah.

Given these three examples in scripture, I don’t see how so many teachers (some of whom I have great respect for in all other areas) can suggest that there will be some people on the earth that will be saved from out of the midst of God pouring out his wrath full strength  upon the earth.

The prophet Zephaniah reinforces this view that the destruction wrought by the Lord in his day of wrath is complete – there will be no survivors, but those that have been spared by the blood of the Lamb beforehand.

 Neither their silver nor their gold   shall be able to deliver them   on the day of the wrath of the LORD.  In the fire of his jealousy,   all the earth shall be consumed;  for a full and sudden end   he will make of all the inhabitants of the earth. (Zephaniah 1:18 ESV)

I wanted to finish up with the last bit that I think the proponent of the pre-tribulation view might use to dispute the totality of destruction brought by God’s wrath.

 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. (Matthew 24:22 ESV)

We know believers are not destined to endure God’s wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9) – so for the believer the days of trouble will be cut short. I think anyone who is elevating the opinion of a pre-tribulation rapture to that of doctrine, should prayerfully consider whether this means that God’s wrath will be cut short – so that some humans would survive it or if this means that God’s wrath is cut short for the believers, the elect, who will be removed immediately prior to God’s wrath being poured out on the Earth.

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78 thoughts on “A Sheep’s Thoughts About “Tribulation Saints”

  1. Something that came to me this week was the fact about “one was left and the other one taken”…well, the ones that were left in the flood were 8 people..all the rest were killed. The ones that were “taken” were all the evil. Not the good…Most are taught the exact opposite.

    Also, I believe that we need to shout the warning. Time is short…I believe that I have been told to shout and shout and shout…get your heart right with Jesus. NOW.

    Also, have you read or thought about Christians being taken to a palce of refuge…not just the one told to flee to Judaea …I believe that we will all be sennt to a place of refuge in “Bozrah”…whether it is several places of refuge…like “Bozrah” or just one…I have been reading on this. Would love your thoughts. The Holy Spirit is speaking to me on this.

    Also..this is worth listening to..

    [audio src="http://www.trunews.com/Audio/5_28_12_monday_trunews2.mp3" /]

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  2. was over at drudge report and found: http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8475973 –look at these numbers today……………………. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/30/nationalbank-idUSA8E8GD01I20120530—greek and spanish debt numbers! bro brian warns of spain going into the 7% zone to be the one that takes down the european economy. and the mark of the beast is not far behind–not far at all. looks like it could be happening as warned.

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  3. Why have we been having the same thougths…I have never been a pre trib person..thought I was going to be here until “the last day”….which I am beginning to believe I will be in a place of safety until the last day…at some point I pray that could be a possibility. But, that said….I too had the same thoughts you did above but could not fit all the pieces together. They seem to be falling into place though…I am just praying for discernment.

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  4. I don’t know if I posted it on this site but on March 5, 2012 the Lord gave me a dream that the “covenant has happened” quit looking for it. He woke me up ( I could go into the long story but to shorten it life circumstances brought me to my knees a little over a year ago and I sought the Lord as I have never ever sought him.) One thing led to the next and the Holy Spirit just started doing “unusual” things in my life…not unusual anymore to me but to most I tell…but after he woke me the first time that night and told me to quit looking for the covenant he said “you are in the final 7 years now. Then I went back to sleep and He woke me up again and said “the next thing to look for is the “abomination of desolation”. I can tell you with all He as done with me this past year….the dream if you call it that as it really was just “words in my head” when he woke me….is from the Lord. We are that close ….so I am praying and watching like a “hawk” for the abomination…it is very soon I believe. and yes, I agree with Andre’ above the mark of the beast is going to be here very soon…so watch,watch and watch…I beleive personally that the antichrist will try to convince everyone “nicely” at first to take the mark …and deceive many into doing just so.

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  5. I agree – the AC is going to show up appearing to the world like the greatest hero it has ever seen, and only after he has consolidated his empire and control over the world will his true colors be seen. I am cautious about watching for the AoD as the marker though, but this is just my opinion personally. I’ve been wondering for a while if we don’t have the interpretation of Daniel 12:11 kind of jumbled. The popular view is that the verse puts the taking of the sacrifice and the AoD on the same day – with 1290 days until something else. I have wondered out loud here a few times if it’s not easier to understand that phrase as the taking of the sacrifice, 1290 days until the AoD, which could put it very shortly prior to the Second Coming 45 days later. Having not been able to consult with a Hebrew scholar on the grammar of that verse I don’t know yet – but I’m open to listen if someone knows their hebrew (since it doesn’t seem that conjunctions are very clear in ancient hebrew).

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  6. Funny…I have actually read that in Daniel 12:11 and thought those very same thoughts…this is the first I have actually carried it past a “thought” as like you said…most think that the AoD happens first which I guess since the Lord gave me that dream is what I will be on the lookout for..but that passage to me is very tricky! I am watching so much I will not miss it I pray!!!!

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  7. Doing some more research today, and find that “ad” is the conjunction/preposition usually translated until or as far – It’s not found in Daniel 12:11, so admitting a big strike against my theory. Any hebrews grammaticians want to help me out with this one?

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  8. Revelation 7:1,3-4,9-10,13-17 (KJV)
    And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. [3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. [4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. [9] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; [10] And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. [13] And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? [14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [15] Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. [16] They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. [17] For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

    These people came out of the great tribulation.

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  9. Oh Mr Sheep don’t you just love how the Holy Spirit works even outside the boundaries of a language 🙂

    Okay this is discussion is going to bless my socks off…I just know …lol

    1Cr 2:13 — Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

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  10. Take a look at these verses the AOD will make war with the saints.

    Daniel 7:21-22 (KJV)
    I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; [22] Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    And

    Revelation 13:6-8 (KJV)
    And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. [7] And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. [8] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    The saints are over come by the AOD.

    If there is people bein taught that they are saints the bible says they will made war upon and they will be overcome by the AC.

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  11. Yep…i was never a pretribber…I agree. So…what do you all interpret Micah 3:12-13 to be about…is that the same as Revelation 12:6 and Revelation 12:14…and do you consider “Jacob” to be all Christians. And..one more thing…do you think we could go to a place of protection for 3.5 years? I use the KJV version which is different than the NIV on a lot of scripture. Would love to know your interpretation of these verses together?

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  12. The opening of the seals will reveal the AC and show his power.

    Revelation 6:1-11 (KJV)
    And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. [2] And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. [3] And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. [4] And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. [5] And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. [6] And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. [7] And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. [8] And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. [9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: [10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were , should be fulfilled.

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  13. I don’t buy into the rapture doctrine. The bible speaks of the very elect fleeing into the wilderness . Out of Jesus own mouth he made this statement.

    Matthew 24:15-16 (KJV)
    When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) [16] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    Jesus said flee . This is a command.

    The Great Tribulation is 3.5 years not 7 which is commonly taught in error.
    The verses you quote in Revalation 12 is the church fleeing into the wilderness

    Revelation 12:6,14 (KJV)
    And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. [14] And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

    Something to keep in mind when understanding God word even prophecy

    Hebrews 13:8 (KJV)
    Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

    Jesus don’t change, he never raptured anyone
    He raised someone but never raptured a single person.

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  14. Since we read where the saints will have to go through the Great Tribulation. It may be time for us to understand that the Lord talk about a elect and a very elect

    Here is what is said about te elect

    1 Peter 1:2 (KJV)
    Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    Foreknowledge the elect has, these people know what is going to happen before it happens

    Colossians 3:12 (KJV)
    Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

    The very elect,These people cannot be deceived because they have read GOd’s word

    Matthew 24:24 (KJV)
    For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

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  15. I tend to agree with you about “no rapture” …so do you think that in Micah 3:12-13 that he is talking about the same time period of protection for the elect and that this is where Jesus the “breaker” will come to “break us out” of when he returns? I agree as well…the Great Tribulation being 3.5 years and according to the Lord in my “dream” if I am to look for the AoD next…then I am keeping my eyes peeled! It is soon…I know. I am watching everything. I will not be deceived. I pray that I will be considered part of that “very elect”…The Holy Spirit speaks to me all day long every day…I pray without ceasing that I am discerning what He is telling me correctly. I go to bed praying, wake up praying, pray all day as I work. It seems I cannot quit praying for loved ones…literally without ceasing almost. I believe we need to watch so closely…as we never have before.

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  16. Some of the Jewish people, a remnant, will survive to go alive in their current physical body, into Jesus’ 1000 year kingdom.

    Zechariah 14:14
    (14) And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
    (15) And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
    (16) And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

    Zephaniah 3:11-15
    (11) In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.
    (12) I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD.
    (13) The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.
    (14) Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.
    (15) The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

    Zechariah 13:6-9
    (6) And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
    (7) Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
    (8) And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
    (9) And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

    “every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts”

    “I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD. (13) The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity…”

    “I will bring the third part through the fire”

    I haven’t come across any scripture indicating that any Gentiles will survive God’s Wrath contained in the 7th Seal. Gentile believers will be going up in the rapture at the 6th Seal, just before God pours out his wrath.

    Gentile & Jewish believers (Jesus bride) that go up in the rapture will be hidden away
    in His bridal chamber while God’s Wrath is poured out on the earth.

    Joel 2:15-19
    (15) Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
    (16) Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
    (17) Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
    (18) Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
    (19) Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:

    Matthew 25:1-2, 9-10
    (1) Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
    (2) And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

    (9) But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
    (10) And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

    “And the door was shut”

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  17. Scott , powerful reply amen!

    The finality of those word’s send shivers down my spine. There was given “space ” to repent yet they spat God in His face with a defiance I have never seen in my life.

    Wow how does one deal with seeing this?

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  18. Thank you Scott- yes you remind me that I forgot to mention Israel as the Woman in Revelation 12 for whom the place has been prepared for 3 1/2 years. The church is raptured at some point (we are having a lively discussion in our house right now about whether it is after at the time of the 6 or 7th seal or the time of the 7th trumpet, I’ll admit there seem to be arguments for both, We both agree it’s before the bowls though) and the remnant of Israel is hidden away in a place that the Antichrist cannot reach her. The rest of the world – every last one will not survive God’s wrath, I also don’t see an indication in the text that a single one will turn to trust in Jesus after Israel and the Church are out of the way. My son asked me today – will anyone among the people of Israel be saved without trusting in Jesus, and my answer, no son, not one.

    But God, in his mercy is going to do a powerful thing in the hearts of Israel that will cause a powerful turning to him, and looking upon him they pierced as they have never been able to in the past.

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  19. Yes Micah 2 is talking last day. Read Ezekiel 40-44 it is soaking the same thing as the Lord come into his kingdom.

    The Lord left us sign to watch:

    A temple
    Animal sacrifice
    10 nations ruling the earth

    Also this which most prophecy teachers don’t teach

    The wilderness the secret place of te most high.

    Psalm 91:1-16 (KJV)
    He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. [2] I will say of the Lord , He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. [3] Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. [4] He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. [5] Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; [6] Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. [7] A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. [8] Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. [9] Because thou hast made the Lord , which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; [10] There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. [11] For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. [12] They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone. [13] Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet. [14] Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name. [15] He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him. [16] With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

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  20. The wilderness is a sign for the very elect of God are watchIng for. This place will blossom and the servants of God will understand what is going on.

    Isaiah 35:1-10 (KJV)
    The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. [2] It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord , and the excellency of our God. [3] Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees. [4] Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you. [5] Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. [6] Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert. [7] And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes. [8] And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein . [9] No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there : [10] And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

    This is what we are suppose to know and understand. This is written. Not a rapture which is actually the resurrection.

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  21. The word of God says all Israel shall be saved

    Romans 11:26 (KJV)
    And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

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  22. Ozell,

    I have to disagree with you on that point – I do think the teaching the rapture is 100% biblical

    For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4 16-17)

    and
    Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
    (1 Corinthians 15:51-52 ESV)

    Where the uncertainty is – and where I personally won’t make a point of doctrine is when in the timeline that must occur, I favor a rapture that occurs after the Antichrist is revealed (and the tribulation starts) but before God’s wrath is poured out on the Earth – since we know that as believers we are not destined for wrath. If we are not destined for wrath how then would we be present here on the earth throughout the time when the cup of God’s wrath is poured out on the whole earth?

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  23. Amen

    remember in that same chapter-

    So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. (Romans 11:5 ESV)

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  24. I believe the “rapture” is of course right after the resurrection on “the last day”…much scripture is out there to back this up. I tend to believe it is after the trumpets before the bowls..and the “last day” is right before the battle of Armageddon. So many people are taught falsely of a rapture prior to the seven years. False teaching and sad to say that is what most everyone I talk to believe. Even the ones that I tell about my dream that we are in the 7 final years now…stop looking for the convenant. I can point out scripture after scripture that specifically prove otherwise. They just don’t want to believe any differently and most have not studied scripture to find out if it is otherwise. And…preachers don’t discuss it. I have tried to with quite a few. They “will not go there”..And as far as prophecy teachers. Do they not teach about this being protected for 3.5 years in a place of safety because they don’t “see” it or because they don’t believe it? Most will only say “that is for the Jews” ….not Gentile Christians.

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  25. Rob, this is an excellent post. I just want to bring up something that seems to be overlooked. I do agree that the wrath of God is final. I also agree with Scott that Israel will be saved. I also don’t know if I misunderstand you that after the wrath of God is poured out, there will be no unsaved person left alive on planet earth. If so, what do you make of the following:

    Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    It seems that Jesus are suggesting that there will be nations left when He returns and not Jews only. It also seems like there will be unsaved humans (goats) and saved but not born again humans (sheep) left when He returns. I know this is a strong argument for pre-trib as they see the sheep as the tribulation saints.

    Any thoughts on this?

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  26. The verses you quoted sounds like an only fit the first resurrection.

    If the rapture is before the resurrection how then can the first resurrection be called the first.

    The people in the rapture would have been the first to be raised.

    Revelation 20:5-6 (KJV)
    But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

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  27. We know that the Lord comes when this sign happens

    Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)
    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    And

    Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV)
    And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

    [13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [

    14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [

    15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

    [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

    [17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    The Lord comes after these events in the heaven .

    Which brings the next event which is the resurrection.

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  28. Please go back and read Romans 11:5

    Is Paul talking about a remnant of Israel being saved like in the end days or tribulation, or is Paul talking about a remnant that has not worshipped pagan gods?

    Let’s read.

    Romans 11:4-5 (KJV)
    But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. [5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    Paul let us know that there is a remnant in Israel that has not bowed the knee to paganism

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  29. We all know that there is a first resurrection and the white throne judgment which is the second resurrection

    Let me ask you all this

    Which comes first the rapture or the first resurrection?

    Keep in mind the rapture and resurrection includes man getting his spiritual body

    Which is first?

    Keep in mind the Lord can only come back one more time which is why we call it the second coming.

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  30. Jesus will rule this earth for 1000 years he will be ruling over people with the help of those who make the first resurrection

    Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)
    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Who are these who go up just before the 1000 ends and surround the camp of the saints .
    We have Magog which is Russia, we have the nations, and w have people being decieved

    Revelation 20:7-9 (KJV)
    And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, [8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. [9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

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  31. Hi Deb

    Micah 2:12-13 (KJV)
    I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men. [13] The breaker is come up before them: they have broken up, and have passed through the gate, and are gone out by it: and their king shall pass before them, and the Lord on the head of them.

    This is when the Lord returns

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  32. Can I point out something and I ask you all to look into this and give me your understanding. I am doing this from my phone so bear with me.

    2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)
    But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    1 day is a 1000 years or a 1000 years is 1 day

    God gave man 6 days or 6000 years

    Exodus 20:9 (KJV)
    Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

    After the 6000 years is over the Lord comes and rule for 1000 years which brings us to the 7000th year or 7th day

    Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV)
    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    When the 1000 years of Jesus rule is over which brings us to another day the 8th day or the 8000th year.

    This is the Father’s rule where new Jerusalem comes down. This is where Jesus hands over everything to the Father

    1 Corinthians 15:27-28 (KJV)
    For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted which did put all things under him. [28] And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    Notice there Is no Room for a rapture

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  33. I’m sory Ozell, I’m not sure quite what you are trying to convince me of. I have read your posts, and I don’t share your view about there not being a rapture of the church. At the same time the scriptures I already do all convict me that a) we will meet him in the air b) the dead in christ will be raised first c) we shall not all be sleep, but will be changed at the time of the last trumpet all of those suggest a rapture. I have to admit it is not exactly clear when though, and I’m okay with that, since the scripture also points out that we are not destined to enudure God’s wrath. My point in this post is that I think it’s very very good news that we are not appointed to endure God’s wrath – since the passages I cited in Genesis and Numbers indicate that there are no survivors among those upon whom God’s wrath is poured out.

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  34. Mr Sheep, it seems like my question got lost inbetween thesTe comments. Lets try it in short: What do you make of Matt 26:31 onwards if all people on earth died under the wrath of God. I do agree that Israel will survive and we both have the same rapture view, but it does seem that there will be survivor nations. We also know that the nations will go to Jerusalem every year and satan will deceive the nations at the end of the 1000 years. So it does seem that there will be survivors after the wrath of God, or I totally misunderstand your post.

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  35. I’m not trying to convince you and anyone of anything. What you have from me is only what the word of God says.

    If you don’t agree be it according to your faith.
    I’m only sharing God’s word with you all and nothing more.

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  36. Re Matthew 24:31, I think that is a good verse for closer study and prayer. When I’ve looked at that verse in the past it always seemed to be referring to the rapture as well. In the context of that passage it doesn’t seem to me to be referring to all things that happen in one day but things that are happening throughout the regarding the Lord’s second coming. This particular group of passages also appear to be referring to events also described around the 6th seal since the sun is also described as darkened then, and you have the great earthquake.

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  37. Thank you Ozell – that I can appreciate very much. I think we are all hoping to gain greater understanding of God’s word here and to watch for the fulfillment of scriptures as we are commanded. My hope is that when God chooses he will use those who watch to warn and wake up much of the church that seems to be asleep, and those that are sitting on the fence about Christ to show that the time to choose whom they serve is today!

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  38. It is first the resurrection then the “rapture…on the last day.we are not appointed to wrath but scripture says we will endure tribulation….I also do believe though we will be protected in the wilderness ( whereever that may be) ….

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  39. thank you Mr Sheep for not taking it personal,
    this is why I provide the word of God so we all can participate an learn as you stated.
    peace in Jesus to you.

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  40. I am trying to convince everyone I know what is about to be upon us and the at the return is Jesus Christ is soon…seems hardly anyone is listening or awake…I am deemed a nut case by most that I try to tell.

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  41. hi Deb
    the way I’m doing this is how I learned so please bear with me as I answer your questions with questions and the word of God will answer.

    is the last day when Jesus return or is the last day 1000 years later at judgement day?
    you are aware that we have 2 resurrection in Revelation 20.

    the first which is when Jesus returns at the 2nd coming
    the next resurrection is on Judgement day or what we call the white throne judgement
    so which one is actually the last day that the Lord refer to in John

    lets read the first resurrection
    REV 20
    4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

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  42. here is the 2nd

    11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

    12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    keep in mind which resurrection do the Lord himself raise the dead and the living?

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  43. I personally believe the first resurrection to be before the 1000 years and teh 2nd for the ungodly to be after the 1000 years…

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  44. which of the resurrection fits these last day verses from the Lord?

    John 6:39
    And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    John 6:40
    And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    .John 6:44
    No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    John 6:54
    Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    John 11:24
    Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

    take note to what Martha said above concerning Lazarus.
    she said Lazarus will be raised at the resurrection.
    why not the rapture?

    anyway the 2nd resurrection or what we call the white throne Judgement the Lord has put the hands of judgement into the saints who were part of the 1st resurrection.

    here is a little known fact in the christian community
    the people in the first resurrection do not stand in judgement.

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  45. as far as the wilderness is at. I can tell you if you want but I rather let you let the word of God tell you

    keep this verses always in your mind

    Malachi 3:6
    For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
    and
    Hebrews 13:8
    Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

    there is only one wilderness mentioned in God’s word and I think you are read enough in his word to figure it out.

    if you want to know what the end will be like go back to the beginning

    God don’t change.

    Adam and Eve where there
    Abraham was there
    Moses and Israel was there
    Elijah was there
    John the baptist was there
    Jesus in the flesh was there

    God don’t change and all here on this forum always keep this in mind

    peace in Jesus

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  46. The gathering up (the rapture) of Jesus’ Bride is the first resurrection.
    It occurs for both those alive in their current human body and for those who’s human body has already perished. In both cases the physical human body is regenerated into an incorruptible glorified body, just as Jesus currently has.

    The “rapture” in essence is a death process, the death of our wicked sinful flesh as we are changed in the twinkling of an eye. Remember it is appointed for man to die … at least once.
    Lazarus physical body died more than one time.

    Hebrews 9:27-28
    (27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
    (28) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    Revelation 20:4-6
    (4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    (5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    (6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    The second resurrection of the dead, the Great White Throne Judgment, is clearly for the non believers.

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  47. where is it written that the great white throne judgement is for the non believers?

    Daniel says this about the first and second resurrection

    Daniel 12

    King James Version (KJV)

    12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

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  48. I believe all the scripture you mentioned in John about the last day are for the 1st resurrection on the last day and then “rapture’ of the saints. I also tend to believe that if we are in a place of protection during the final 3.5 years, then the tribulation saints are those that were not taken to a place of safety that had to endure and did not take the mark, etc and somehow survived until the “last day” and were those that did not taste death as well being “raptured” after the resurretion with those that were in a place of safety as well. I tend to think the “last day” to be the last day before God pours out his wrath and maybe we all go to the bridal room as he pours it out and kills all that remain.

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  49. Deb,
    you are right the 1st resurrection is on the last day when Jesus return. As far as the rapture of the saints either the rapture is the resurrection or there is no rapture. the 2 cannot exist.

    You are correct again the elect or very elect are the ones who had foreknowledge to flee into the wilderness as Jesus commanded.

    and again you are correct the tribulation saints are those who did not beleive and understand Jesus command of fleeing into the wilderness when we see the AOD.This group of people in the tribulation will have to endure until the Lord comes and put a end to it.

    lets look at why it is called the last day

    Matthew 24
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Rev 6
    12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

    13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

    14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

    notice in these verses and there are many many more where the sun, moon, stars, are put out. Notice the heavens are rolled up and is gone.

    In other words the concept of a day has been eliminated as we (man) use the host of heaven in determining a day.

    as far as your understanding of rapture, it is impossible to have a rapture before or after the resurrection. It do not fit in the plan of God.

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  50. here are two tribulation saints Notice the “words come up hither”

    is this resurrection or rapture

    Revelation 11:11-12
    11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

    12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

    also resurrection means to be raised and in John 6 the Lord easily could have said he will resurrect the dead on the last day, yet he said I will raised the dead on the last day.

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  51. the tribulation saints made war upon by the AC

    Revelation 13
    1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy
    4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
    5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months
    7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    The tribulation saints being sealed after the Great tribulation

    Revelation 7
    7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
    2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
    3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

    the tribulation saints coming out of the Great tribulation.

    Revelation 7
    13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

    How are they before the throne of God?

    remember in Revelation 6

    theFather and the Lord Jesus and his entourage are here on earth

    Revelation 6
    16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    notice these people(saints) were not raptured. they were sealed but not raptured.

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  52. Ozell,

    I’m still not following your reasoning. I’ve heard post-trib/no rapture points of view before, and when I was questioning the pre-trib interpretation I did seriously consider it. After reading your line of reasoning, I still can’t say I reach a post trib conclusion. From my reading of end times prophecies I make a few clear distinctions which are as follows- the tribulation (aka time of Jacob’s trouble) is not the same as the time of God’s wrath, the church is not equivalent with Israel – God deals with them seperately as we can see in Romans 11 especially vs 13-15

    Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
    (Romans 11:13-15 ESV)

    You raise a good point that I believe we should study in greater detail – the phrase “on the last day”. I believe the group could be greatly edified by studying what this phrase means and what greek or hebrew terms are translated that way as you cite in your messages. I haven’t been able to run those down in my interlinear bible yet, but hopefully will have some time later. I do believe the other scriptures I cited before reflect that the church and Israel will both be seperated from the wrath of God to befall the whole earth immediately prior to Christ’s second coming claim his rightful throne as King of Kings. In saying that God does not change – which is why it says “as in the days of Noah” Luke 17:26 and 1 Peter 3:20 – prophetically that is to tip us off to both the wickedness that will be present in the world, but also what God is going to do to prefer his faithful remnant – the rapture for the church, and an escape and hiding place for Israel.

    One other place I take issue – in one of your posts you call the two witnesses “tribulation saints” I think this is a serious error in interpretation that must be corrected. The two witnesses are not the church or Israel – they are God’s final two prophets who are sent to bear witness against the earth for it’s rebellion against God and to bring great plagues against the earth. When I read about their ministry, I get the distinct impression that their ministry is about bringing misery to the wicked that are left on the earth, and for it they are obviously hated by those that remain (the unsaved). I don’t see any evidence that anyone is saved during their ministry (though I would not be surprised if they emerge at a time very close to the sealing of the 144,000 of Israel). We also know that they cannot be killed until the day their ministry is completed where they will be slain by the antichrist. I put them in a seperate and very special class in God’s plan, though they appear to be two human men, they have a very special ministry that is not common to anyone else’s experience.

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  53. The 42 month long “tribulation” period does not begin with the 7th Seal containing God’s all encompassing Wrath across the entire face of the earth. The Day of the Lord / God’s Wrath does not last 42 months. “After the tribulation of those days”, (that we are here on earth for) then the 6th Seal is opened (Matt 24:29, Mark 13:24) we are gathered up / raptured and and there is silence in Heaven for a half an hour before the 7th Trumpet is blown.

    Revelation 8:1-7
    (1) And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
    (2) And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
    (3) And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
    (4) And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.
    (5) And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
    (6) And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
    (7) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

    Matthew 24:29
    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    Mark 13:24
    But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

    We are (will be) the tribulation saints spoken of in scripture. We will be here on the face of the earth to endure persecution at the hands of our spiritual enemy. God is currently allowing persecution to increase in portions of the world and will continue to allow it to increase until we see Jesus coming in the clouds with great power, glory and flaming fire. Why the persecution? … for the refinement of His Bride. No, not every believer will be receiving a martyrs crown when they get “Home”, however many will. 11 of the 12 apostles will receive one. (that’s a 91.6% rate)

    The man of sin will be given 1,260 days to carry out his reign of terror. The two witnesses that will appear in Jerusalem and have a ministry lasting 1,260 days. With God’s permission, they will be killed by the forces of darkness on the 1,261st day of their existence on earth. Their bodies will lay on the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days before they are called back to life and up to the Third Heaven. When this day occurs, the man of sin’s time of power is over. Jesus says He will begin reigning at this point in time even though the battle of the Armageddon hasn’t even occurred yet!

    All of these thoughts are very clearly spelled out by our Lord in scripture. I have presented the verses many times before and can do it again if it would be beneficial.

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  54. Justasheep
    “I’m still not following your reasoning. I’ve heard post-trib/no rapture points of view before, and when I was questioning the pre-trib interpretation I did seriously consider it. After reading your line of reasoning, I still can’t say I reach a post trib conclusion. From my reading of end times prophecies I make a few clear distinctions which are as follows- the tribulation (aka time of Jacob’s trouble) is not the same as the time of God’s wrath, the church is not equivalent with Israel – God deals with them seperately as we can see in Romans 11 especially vs 13-15 ”
    The church is Israel , we can even read this in the NT.

    1.Acts 7:38
    This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

    In Romans 11 we have Paul warning the Romans that Israel is not cast away explaining to them what the Lord has done to Israel.
    Remember Paul says quite a few time to the Jew first and then the gentiles

    Romans 2:8-10
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

    “One other place I take issue – in one of your posts you call the two witnesses “tribulation saints” I think this is a serious error in interpretation that must be corrected. The two witnesses are not the church or Israel – they are God’s final two prophets who are sent to bear witness against the earth for it’s rebellion against God and to bring great plagues against the earth. When I read about their ministry, I get the distinct impression that their ministry is about bringing misery to the wicked that are left on the earth, and for it they are obviously hated by those that remain (the unsaved). I don’t see any evidence that anyone is saved during their ministry (though I would not be surprised if they emerge at a time very close to the sealing of the 144,000 of Israel). We also know that they cannot be killed until the day their ministry is completed where they will be slain by the antichrist. I put them in a seperate and very special class in God’s plan, though they appear to be two human men, they have a very special ministry that is not common to anyone else’s experience”

    thew two men the witness are and will be Israelites, all the apostles and all the Prophets are Israelites. God only used his people to bring his word from Moses to John the revelator all were Israelites. These two special men only purpose is to combat the beast and false prophet in the great tribulation using God’s word. Theses two men will be in the tribulation, these two men can be considered true saints because of there knowledge and action

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  55. we find the word resurrection many, many times in God’s word.

    I already asked the question which comes first the resurrection or the rapture?

    .Matthew 22:23
    The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

    Matthew 22:28
    Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
    Matthew 22:30
    For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
    .Matthew 22:31
    But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

    Matthew 27:53
    And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    Mark 12:18
    Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,

    Mark 12:23
    In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
    Luke 14:14
    And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
    Luke 20:27
    Then came to him certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him,

    Luke 20:33
    Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.

    Luke 20:35
    But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

    Luke 20:36
    Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

    John 5:29
    And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    John 11:24
    Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
    John 11:25
    Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

    Acts 1:22
    Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

    Acts 2:31
    He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    Acts 4:2
    Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.

    Acts 4:33
    And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

    Acts 17:18
    Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

    Acts 17:32
    And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
    Acts 23:6
    But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
    Acts 23:8
    For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
    Acts 24:15
    And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

    Acts 24:21
    Except it be for this one voice, that I cried standing among them, Touching the resurrection of the dead I am called in question by you this day.

    we read the reusrrection, why do the rapture community choose to ignore what is all over the bible?

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  56. there is no such thing as a pretib, prewrath and all the other man made words, there is no such thing as a rapture.

    we have a first resurrection we can read this, first means nothing before

    during the 1000 year rule of Jesus we don’t have a rapture nor a resurrection

    after the 1000 year rule of Jesus, the next resurrection or white throne judgement occurs

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  57. the resurrection cannot occur until after the tribulation. this is in Matthew 24v29 this is when the Lord comes.

    the resurrection cannot occur until the Lord comes.

    two will be standing and one taken

    what do you think of this verse and the words “come up hither”

    Revelation 11:12
    And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

    the voice call and says come up hither

    1 Thessalonians 4:16
    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

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  58. Hi Ozell 🙂

    Please forgive me for jumping midway in here but because of a precious thing “called lack of time “. I don’t have much of that right now to go through all the details of the discussion (yet.) So just skimming the thread ( hey I confessed) may I ask a quick question or two.

    Firstly, you said ” The bible speaks of the very elect fleeing into the wilderness . Out of Jesus own mouth he made this statement.

    Matthew 24:15-16 (KJV)
    When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) [16] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:”

    So those in ” Judaea” are all the ” elect” ( globally ) that ” heed” the call to flee ( to the wilderness) and those that don’t are plunged into the 42 month ” and it is given unto the beast to make war with them” horror’s? Am I understanding you correctly ? ( just for clarification no I’m not a pre- tribber )

    Also I’m including these scriptures for your thoughts on the ” plummet, the mountain of Zion and the office of these two ” servant’s of God ” 🙂

    Thanks in advance.

    Hag 2:21 Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth;
    Hag 2:22 And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother.
    Hag 2:23 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts.

    Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

    Zec 1:17 Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.
    Zec 1:18 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns.
    Zec 1:19 And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem.
    Zec 1:20 And the LORD shewed me four carpenters.
    Zec 1:21 Then said I, What come these to do? And he spake, saying, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, so that no man did lift up his head: but these are come to fray them, to cast out the horns of the Gentiles, which lifted up their horn over the land of Judah to scatter it.

    Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
    Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
    Zec 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
    Zec 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
    Zec 3:5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.
    Zec 3:6 And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,
    Zec 3:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.
    Zec 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
    Zec 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
    Zec 3:10 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

    Zec 4:1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep,
    Zec 4:2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
    Zec 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
    Zec 4:4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
    Zec 4:5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
    Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
    Zec 4:7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
    Zec 4:8 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
    Zec 4:9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.
    Zec 4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
    Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
    Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
    Zec 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
    Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

    Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
    Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
    Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

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  59. Mr Sheep please add ” S” to beat….hhhaaa that gave me the hibbigiebies…” s” for slithering -YIKES.

    (edited to make beat into beast in the post below… -sheep)

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  60. Deb – You may remember the discussion we were having about Daniel 12:11 the other day? I admitted there as no “ad” which is usually translated “until” in the text? Well I was looking up something else (namely the “unwalled villages” of ezekiel 38 and Zechariah 2) that I’ll save for another post.

    What I found tonight – is that in the phrase that is commonly translated “the time” as in “from the time” one of the words “ū·mê·‘êṯ” is a construction that includes “et” which is a variation of “ad” that often is translated “until” and specifies an interval of time. I need to talk about this someone who is a good student of hebrew – because this verse is just so confusing I wonder if the common reading is the only reading that makes sense from the text.

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  61. Hi hisown1

    “So those in ” Judaea” are all the ” elect” ( globally ) that ” heed” the call to flee ( to the wilderness) and those that don’t are plunged into the 42 month ” and it is given unto the beast to make war with them” horror’s? Am I understanding you correctly ? ( just for clarification no I’m not a pre- tribber ) ”

    The Elect are the people who are in the wilderness. The elect is not the people in Judea. The people in Judea who flees to the wilderness become the elect as any person all over the world who flees to the wilderness are the elect. Some people think that the people in Judea are the Jews, last check we have Muslims in Judea, we have the Roman, Orthodox, and Protestants churches in Jerusalem, we have tourist in Judea, we have every son of Adam living or visiting Judea at some time or another.

    why are the people in the wilderness the elect? Peter said this

    Peter 1:2
    Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    we will obey the warning given by Jesus.Because we have the FOREKNOWLEDGE
    we know what to do before and when it happens.

    lets read some more on what Jesus said

    Matthew 24
    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
    and
    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    the very elect cannot be deceived because we know what is going to happen, we know every move the AC make when it comes to fulfilling Prophecy.

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  62. those verse you quote contains a lot of information we have the two witnesses doing battle against the AC standing before the God of this earth

    we have the resurrection, because zerruabal and Joshua are dead and they have to resurrected to be high Priest and governor and build the temple that Jesus will dwell in.
    we have the four winds that scattered Israel.

    this is why I ask people to get a excellent bible companion called the ‘FOUR WINDS OF HEAVEN’

    most pastors don’t teach the 4 winds and because of this they don’t understand that the 4 winds are Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome

    These 4 nation have ruled the world since Nebuchadnezzar

    there is a lot in those chapter you put is there anything particular you would like to fellowship on?

    thanks for taking the time to consider the words of Jesus when it comes to the wilderness.

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  63. is this the rapture or the resurrection?

    were the two witnesses raptured or resurrected?
    and are they the hope for the tribulation saints not to take the mark of the beast?

    Rev 11

    4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

    5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

    6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

    7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

    8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

    9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

    10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

    11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

    12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

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  64. Ozell,

    I’m still not at all convinced by your logic in attempting to deny that there will be a rapture. I think we can agree that one way or another we who love the Lord will all be with him in his kingdom. I think the scriptures we have provided previously clearly indicate that there will be a resurrection of the dead first, then who are alive will be caught in the clouds to be with him. The scriptures about this catching up do no match with the events of the second coming when he conquers the beast and satan and the remainder of those dwelling in world. As I’ve stated before, scripture does teach that we will not all die (in the text “sleep) but that some of us who are alive in the last day will be caught up to meet him. I don’t think it’s helpful to confuse the two witnesses with this – the two witnesses are caught up to heaven as Elijah was at the end of his ministry – you can see that those two texts (about Elijah and the two witnesses) are very similar.

    I am somewhat uncomfortable with your assertion negating God’s special end of days plan for Israel. The texts we have cited are very clear, there is a destiny for Israel that is for Israel alone and for the faithful remnant that God has chosen out of her.

    I hear teaching on the “four winds of heaven” as well – and it is not the four kingdoms spoken of by Daniel. The four winds of heaven is a common reference for something powerful coming from all directions at Israel, or for going out in all directions. It is not all that mysterious, and I think there is a danger is overthinking that symbolism when the text makes it so clear in many other parts of scripture.

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  65. there is no rapture, you cannot have a a first resurrection and a rapture. The is no pretrib, prewrath and all the other man made doctrines The bible speaks of a first Resurrection of the living and dead.
    There is nothing confuse about the words you read in my post from the bible they are clear and they will be there when you open your bible next week, Again I’m not in the convincing business so please remove that from your thoughts

    The Resurrection is not only for the dead it is for the living also.

    lets read.
    Matthew 16:27-28
    27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
    28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    The Lord shows the future to us and those he was talking to.

    lets head to the next chapter for more understanding.

    Matthew 17

    King James Version (KJV)

    Matthew 17
    1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

    2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

    3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
    Now lets see what the Lord showed them

    9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

    Jesus showed them a vision of the resurrection and he said there will be some standing here when He comes back.

    tell me when he returns what happens in the process?

    the first resurrection of the living and the dead.

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  66. we will let the bible tell all of us who the four winds are

    Daniel 7

    King James Version (KJV)

    7 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.

    2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

    3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

    4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.

    5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

    6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

    7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

    now lets put a name of each four winds

    wind #1 Babylon Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel was under there captivity
    Daniel 8
    1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.
    8 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.

    wind #2
    20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

    wind #3
    21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king

    what kingdom came after Greece? what kingdom was in power when the Lord was killed?
    Daniel even spoke of it in the verse below.

    wind #4

    Daniel 9
    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    if this is not enough I have a lot more.

    the four winds have come upon Israel and the last one must be here when the Lord comes.

    this to is written

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  67. please answer the question are the 2 witnesses raptured or resurrected?

    notice it is after the tribulation when they are told to come up hither.

    so we must ask how many times will the dead rise?

    1st resurrection
    rapture

    also keep in mind the people in the first resurrection are not judged
    are the people in the rapture judged?

    how did they get to be part of a so-called rapture?

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  68. why do they call it a sleep?

    take a look at this verse
    Revelation 1:7
    Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    notice every eye will see Jesus when he comes, even the people that pierced him and everyone that was at the cross, they are dead which mean sleep.
    they will wake up one to see the Lord, secondly if they be so blessed at the 1st resurrection
    and thirdly at the white throne judgement

    whoever did not make the 1st resurrection will be awaken in white throne judgement and be given the second death. this is why it is a sleep until this time.

    lets read
    Revelation 2:11
    He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

    Revelation 20:6
    Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

    there is more if you still doubt what is written
    .
    the people who are dead now will wake up to see the Lord when he comes.
    when the Lord comes those who are dead if they be so blessed will be raised
    if they are not raised in the first resurrection a 1000 years later they will be raised and judged
    if they be found guilty they will be given a spiritual body to burn forever.
    if they be found worthy they will be given a spiritual body to live in the Father’s kingdom

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  69. Scripture says that all this will happen on “the last day” I can see his point exactly…first the dead in Christ will be rise then the ones that are left and still remain…i think “man” just calls it a rapture but I see his point…we are all resurrected almost in the same “instant” …first the dead in Christ then those that are remaining or left when Jesus returns.

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  70. We translate Harpazo from the Greek new testament – 1 thessalonians 4:17 as caught up, rapture, snatched away. I guess I don’t care what you call it – the Bible clearly says it’s going to happen at some point, so I believe it will. As to the question that has been raised- what will happen first the dead in christ raised or a rapture – 1 Corinthians 15:52, the dead in christ are raised first and those of us that are still alive are changed. So you see, that the rapture and the first resurrection are connected – those that are not taken into the Lord’s presence at that moment either by the first resurrection or the rapture will be subject to the wrath of God upon the earth, and will face the second resurrection and the white throne judgement. That is why I posited that there are no “tribulation saints” as the pre-tribulationist adherents have labelled them. Once the first resurrection occurs, and those that love the Lord are also taken to be be with him, “raptured” as it were, I believe the door is shut and no one else may enter. If for some reason the two witnesses are still on the earth at the point (and I expect they would be since their ministry is 1260 days) it is completely up to God what purpose he has for them, and the timing of their retrieval into his presence after the completion of their task is completely up to him and I don’t think subject to any heirarchy of “rules” we may pull from the text. This is not in relation to your post, but something I believe I read somewhere else – someone wrote “Jesus cannot do such and such until some other thing” I find that really offensive – Yes Jesus is subject to and obeys the Father, but who are we to outline a rule for what Jesus can and cannot do! That is preposterous. If the Father were to determine that today is the day to raise the dead and call all his saints home, I would not argue one bit. Rather than fault God, I would fault my limited human understanding and my flawed logic for presuming things about the text that it did not say.

    So Ozell – in closing I don’t really think there is that much we disagree about, more about the words we are using to express it. I still call you a brother, and hope you are not offended by my challenges to what you’ve written.

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  71. I’m not offended in any way because we read where the angel told John that the people he is looking at in this chapter came out of great tribulation.

    if these people came out of great tribulation they had to go through the great tribulation.

    notice it do not say that they were raptured, it don’t even say they were resurrected.

    it also lets us know they were given white robes and they are clean before the Lord.
    this they received after the GT and not before.

    Revelation 7
    11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

    12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

    13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

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  72. we read were the saints are made war against in the GT

    now lets read where the saints are in the GT.

    Daniel 11:31-33
    31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
    32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
    33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

    we read that the saints who survived the Great tribulation were given white robes for there endurance.

    we also know that Jesus comes after the GT we also can read this

    Matthew 24:28-30
    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

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  73. the word of God speaks of a first resurrection letting us know that there is nothing before it.
    Revelation 20:6
    Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    we know that this cannot happen until the Lord comes and we know he comes with the clouds. Notice the clouds

    Revelation 1:7
    Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    Matthew 24:30
    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Matthew 26:64
    Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    the Lord will come with the clouds and at the resurrection and those who are so blessed will meet the Lord in those same clouds.

    in the resurrection.

    be it Lazarus, the two witnesses, you and I,

    how many times must the Lord raised the dead before the white throne judgement?
    once and that is at his coming after the tribulation.

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  74. Prophecy cannot happen out of order
    the Lord cannot come before the man of sin is revealed

    Paul tells us this

    2 Thessalonians 2:2-4
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    the AOD cannot come until a temple is built
    Jesus lets us know this

    Matthew 24:15
    When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

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