I don’t get really mad that often, but I was listening to something on a the radio, a major christian radio station I wanted to scream at the radio.
Today on In the Market with Janet Parshall (a radio show I listen to often on my way home from work, and usually enjoy), they had the head of the Pre-Tribulation Research Center and the amount of pride and certainty that this man displayed in this particular interpretation of scripture was shocking.
Let me start off with some areas where I am not angry.
-I know the rapture will happen at some point in the future
-I know the Lord will come back to the earth just as he ascended in the Acts.
-I know that every word of prophecy will be fulfilled.
So what makes me such an Angry Sheep today? Is it about the pre-trib rapture- sort of but not really. If my general thinking on scripture is incorrect, I’d be perfectly happy to be caught up in the air at any time. I’m not one to debate the timing of the rapture as a doctrinal issue (I’m pre-wrath, but would be happy to be wrong).
The thing that has got me so hot under the collar is the level of confidence with which this guy reads off end-times prophecy like it’s storybook that gives all the details of the future, and he has them perfectly correct. I DON’T think we are meant to know every detail of the future. They take the dispensational theory/pre-trib theory and speak about it like it is clear biblical doctrine. I really don’t care how many years they have been studying this, or how many books they have published – the scriptures just don’t seem to be that interested in spelling out all those details they way these men have insisted on putting them together.
To anyone reading, don’t get me wrong, I don’t think these guys are non-christian or that their theory is heresy – but the pride I heard is clearly sin, and to assume to have all the answers and to apply a man-made theoretical structure (which is not the only workable theoretical structure) is just wrong. They create all these new terms like they “church age”, “tribulation saints” and others.
I wish I could have a conversation with one of these guys sometime. A few callers pointed out other ways to look at the text, which he smugly shot down. There is so much we don’t know about how prophecy will be fulfilled, it drives me wild that so many teachers today refuse to acknowledge that God has not chosen to reveal it all to us, or that there are mysteries around how these things are to be fulfilled. Don’t these men realize that these kind of constructions (and the complicated charts that go with them) are made with human hands- just like all the other things that will pass away? I don’t see why anyone would want to present their own theory about scripture, one with lots of insertions of human inference, and many different possible interpretations- as an interpretation presented on a par with the actual text of scripture. I wish we who discuss prophecy would just be honest about our assumptions, where our assumptions came from and what interpretation we are relying on that may not be 100% clearly spelled out in the text of scripture.
I hope I’m not going over the top, writing about it has helped me to cool off. If any pre-trib adherents read this (especially Dr. Ice with whom I’d love a discussion) I don’t hate you or think less of you as a brother or sister in Christ, lets just try not be smug about it and assume we have all the answers, and that everyone else is wrong.
UNSEALED PROPHECY 
I agree 100% with you on “prewrath”…but tell that to most Christians out there these days and it makes them plum mad!! LOLOLOL!! LIke you…do I ever wish were pretrib like most all believe and I believe are all “falsely taught” …by pastors…well the ones that will even talk about it. I have tried to talk to MANY PASTORS these last few months and they will not even discuss it PERIOD…literally no comment at all. It is like I have some major disease. So many people these days do not even want to discuss it if they are pretrib. The only response is “I’m ready”…well…it my opinion they aren’t near as ready as they need to be. I guess that is why the Lord woke me up so I can buy enough food and water to share with those that are saying “I’m ready”…and when the time for the mark of the beast comes they will faint with fear because they did not prepare.
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There is no rapture sorry and a Holy ascensions into Heaven, this is terribly vain of you to envision yourself ascending just like Christ, perhaps Satan has implanted such a thought. There is a persecution. Yes two will be in the field one will be taken and one will be left to work at the mill. It will be a hard choice probably favoring a side you would have nothing to do with anyway so you may as well call yourself a goat instead of being a vain sheep as you proclaim.
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TO Deb
I must say that it is a shame to hear pastors say “I’m ready…” as this is vain for man to proclaim himself as ready, they may as well say they are God, there are many arrogant rebels self proclaiming themselves as such. Before receipt of the Holy Eucharist we say, “Lord I am not worthy that You should enter under my roof, but I will only say the word and I shall be healed.” NO MAN IS WORTHY WITHOUT CHRIST IN HIM!
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To Juan:
I must say that you never read John 5:28-29, 1 Cor 15:22-23 and 1 Tess 4:14-17. Read the Word of God and if you have His Spirit you will understand what He says. Jesus will take up His bride (His Church, not your’s), have a marriage feast in Heaven and then, togheter, come down on earth to establish His Kingdom! Meditate, brother, on these truths spoken by God Himself and not by a Man! Shalom. James
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amen!!!
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Dr James I must say that there is alot wrong with your interpretation, perhaps you should read it again and again…but I must say that even then you will not understand it. Sad to see men be granted such titles as “Dr.” to make false interpretations and promote the Word of God in manners that most suite their needs of a mass delusion such as the rapture justified on vagueness and unaccounted gaps and conclusions. Yes it is those who cling to oppositions and have lost the foundation by way of the reformation. There is no RAPTURE… DOCTOR? Get over it, the time is drawing near, as we both see the signs but in a moments notice and in a crisis situation you will be given a choice. Your Gentile state is in denial intoxicated by the world.
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Oh I like that …” a angry Sheep” can I join in with a baah or two of my own?LOL
Oh my tummy hurts…come on Mr Sheep I would never have thought !
Okay so we have a sniffing hound dog and a pit bull..
NOW THIS?? oh Lord have mercy!!!
LAUGH!!
( Ps I will share a little incident I had last night concerning this discussion a little later )
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Aw Hisown- thank you sis. Wherever did you find footage of me going after that word-faith/prosperity gospel preacher? I didn’t think anyone had a camera to record that scene. Thanks for posting it!
-sheep
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Vic Wickus,
Thank you for you testimony. The very human views that you have shared shows me that you have a true passion for the Gospel, and rightly dividing the Word of God so that the truth may be reached to all.
Not many are like that in the Christian World. Many want to appease whatever is bringing them in the money, or whatever makes so-called followers of Christ “feel good” – they don’t want their feelings hurt, or they decide to quit, give up, or not send the necessary money that supports spreading the Word. Amazing isn’t it?
But Christ said the Last Days would be like this. Dear fellow believers of Christ – please remember …..it ain’t about YOU.
I challenge you all – to include myself, as I need to be reminded constantly that God is the center of my life; my challenge to you all is to read the very Words of Christ. Pray for understanding. The times that are before us are going to be very deceptive. False doctrines, easy believism, I’ve said the “sinners prayer”…..I’ve cast out demons in the name of Christ…I obey the sabbath….etc…….
It’s really time to stand firm on what we believe – which should be exactly has Scripture has dictated. Live what we believe, and not just be hearers of the Word, but doers.
As I make these statements, I am reminded of how the Return of Christ will be just like in the days of Noah. People of God…..don’t be like those who did not have understanding. The signs are there.We are in the Last Days – make no mistake about it.
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Amen Baldy,
I’ve been thinking more about what I wrote above and even though I feel a little better that there are some among the more conservative bible teachers that have not elevated the interpretative construct of a Pre-tribulation rapture to the status of doctrine, they are few and far between.
It is heavy on my heart- and the reason I’m so angry about this, is how it blinds so many to the possibility that many prophecies are being fulfilled/could be fulfilled in the near future, and because if it doesn’t fit their model they would never notice.
You mention Noah, and it makes my heart break with sadness about the impact that counting on a sudden pre-tribulation rapture and its implications could have on people’s walks. One of the implications, is that of so-called “tribulation saints”. The whole idea of a “tribulation saint” seems utterly preposterous to me. When we look at other times that God has poured out his wrath- who was saved? In the days of Noah, it was only Noah and his family that were saved by being aboard the ark. In the days of Sodom and Gommorrah, it was only Lot’s family that was saved. There were no survivors of God’s wrath – but those that had listened to him before it was poured out. I don’t understand what makes the Day of Lord any different. Is it somehow going to be less complete, less severe than Noah’s flood or the destruction of Sodom? I think not!
I don’t expect anyone to assent to my views on the end times, I’m not an expert by any means. But be warned – carefully, prayerfully read your scriptures, as Mr Baldy has said above, and consider that you may not know all of what is in God’s mind for that day, and you may not know every detail about what, when, where, and how of every day that is to come. We should read the scriptures with a humble heart – saying to ourselves, “What Lord can I do to follow the great commission, to be a faithful witness to your truth and to reach those You are seeking as the time grows short.” This may be the very last chance they have.
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Amen Baldy!
How does one deal with the emotions ( and frustrations ) of seeing those you love who( seem ) to be under some ” spel”. Seriously!!!
It is diabolical or the strong delusion that God sends that they just can’t seem to ” get it” huh ?
How do you get to that one that DEFENDS their ” get out jail free” arrogance to see the danger they are in? I feel like a failure, no matter how I present , beg or plea , nothing seems to get through!
One such frustration was with a sis in Christ that told me about Jesus the year before I got saved. She has now accused me of trying ” to pay with my blood ” in the trib as I feel UNWORTHY of His work on the cross because I believe in the pre wrath rapture ..HUH?
She made me feel if I hade ” lost it ” as she referenced the FALLING AWAY as the rapture of the church and that I was now ” confused” by Satan …HUH?
She states that I am clinging on for dear life and am believing this because I ” feel the need to suffer for Christ”…HUH?
The pride in the pre trib stand shocked me….as she expressed that I NEEDED TO LISTEN TO HER…HUH?
She ended off telling me she is ” worried ” about me and that God has been with her for 33 yrs and He has shown her this truth…She mocked that I ” felt I needed to do a job” and would pray for me …HUH?
Oh what is the tib going to look like if this is how it is now?
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wow Hisown all that made me think—-huh? too. phil 3:10 comes to mind. it is the oh so sweet knowing Him that becomes the be all end all–not duty but the beautiful devotion of an unashamed mary who anointed and kissed His feet and wiped them with her hair because for her there was no one else even in the room. it is not duty but devotion that wants to live the overcoming life of His Resurrection Power-to rise and walk in newness of life because old things are passed away. it is not duty but devotion that wants the fellowship of His sufferings that produces fruit unto His name–look at apostle paul-God chose him to show him what great things he must suffer for the kingdom of God he had previously wanted to stamp out. paul said be an imitator of me as i imitate Christ. it is not duty but devotion that longs to be conformed unto His Death-the nevertheless-it is not i but Christ of galations 2:20-where it is all about Him (thanks for reminding mr. baldy) because He is increasing in me and i am decreasing-dying daily (for which the world can be glad-it has endured plenty of my selfishness). do i need to work/keep my salvation?-oh no! have i “arrived”? oh no—i do not know how God thinks and does because it is all too high for me—but do i want to? oh yes. i want to continue on the onward upward path pressing toward the mark of the high calling of God. life lived short of all this i’m describing is too shallow for me–i lived in the shallows too long and now deep is calling unto deep. if that “bothers” someone else–if that seems “loony” as we laughed about a few posts back-if that intimidates someone who prefers the shallows i cannot help that-nor should i be concerned–Jesus said to peter (when he was in the mode of what about john in john 21) what is that to you? you follow Me. funny you mention the “get out of jail free card”!! i wrote then deleted another post early today and wrote those very same words you have written! the thinking of the pre-trib crowd (in some but certainly not all) seems kind of “laodescian” to me—and i can be wrong–but i’ll let God sort that one too………………………………………………….meanwhile i’ll watch and wait-pray and prepare–i want to make sure there’s plenty of oil in my lamp when my Bridegroom comes.
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To brother Juan Carrillo:
I am a duly licensed physician who has been healed by Jesus from cancer and now I am dedicating my whole life to Yeshua and His coming Kngdom. Read Rev 3:20 and you will see that Jesus is coming soon to take up His bride (the true Church) with Him. May God have mercy on you!
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Pretrib Rapture Pride
Pretrib rapture promoters like Thomas Ice give the impression they know more than the early Church Fathers, the Reformers, the greatest Greek New Testament scholars including those who produced the KJV Bible, the founders of their favorite Bible schools, and even their own mentors!
Ice’s mentor, Dallas Sem. president John Walvoord, couldn’t find anyone holding to pretrib before 1830 – and Walvoord called John Darby and his Brethren followers “the early pretribulationists” (RQ, pp. 160-62). Ice belittles Walvoord and claims that several pre-1830 persons, including “Pseudo-Ephraem” and a “Rev. Morgan Edwards,” taught a pretrib rapture. Even though the first one viewed Antichrist’s arrival as the only “imminent” event, Ice (and Grant Jeffrey) audaciously claim he expected an “imminent” pretrib rapture! And Ice (and John Bray) have covered up Edwards’ historicism which made a pretrib rapture impossible! Google “Morgan Edwards’ Rapture View” and journalist/historian Dave MacPherson’s “Deceiving and Being Deceived” for documentation on these and similar historical distortions.
The same pretrib defenders, when combing ancient books, deviously read “pretrib” into phrases like “before Armageddon,” “before the final conflagration,” and “escape all these things”!
BTW, the KJV translators’ other writings found in London’s famed British Library (where MacPherson has researched) don’t have even a hint of pretrib rapturism. Is it possible that Ice etc. have found pretrib “proof” in the KJV that its translators never found?
Pretrib merchandisers like Ice claim that nothing is better pretrib proof than Rev. 3:10. They also cover up “Famous Rapture Watchers” (on Google) which shows how the greatest Greek NT scholars of all time interpreted it.
Pretrib didn’t flourish in America much before the 1909 Scofield Bible which has pretribby “explanatory notes” in its margins. Not seen in the margins was jailed forger Scofield’s criminal record throughout his life that David Lutzweiler has documented in his recent book “The Praise of Folly” which is available online.
Biola University’s doctrinal statement says Christ’s return is “premillennial” and “before the Tribulation.” Although universities stand for “academic freedom,” Biola has added these narrow, restrictive phrases – non-essentials the founders purposely didn’t include in their original doctrinal statement when Biola was just a small Bible institute! And other Christian schools have also belittled their founders.
Ice, BTW, has a “Ph.D” issued by a tiny Texas school that wasn’t authorized to issue degrees! Ice now says that he’s working on another “Ph.D” via the University of Wales in Britain. For light on the degrees of Ice’s scholarliness, Google “Bogus degree scandal prompts calls to wind up University of Wales,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “be careful in polemics – Peripatetic Learning,” and “Walvoord Melts Ice.” Also Google “Thomas Ice (Hired Gun)” – featured by media luminary Joe Ortiz on his Jan. 30, 2013 “End Times Passover” blog.
Other fascinating Google articles include “The Unoriginal John Darby,” “X-raying Margaret,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart,” “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “Pretrib Rapture Politics,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrets,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” and “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism” – most from the author of “The Rapture Plot,” the most accurate documentation on pretrib rapture history.
Can anyone guess who the last proud pretrib rapture holdout will be?
(Postscript: For another jolt or two Google “The Background Obama Can’t Cover Up.”)
/ Hi Unsealed… Discovered the preceding on the web. Lord bless you. /
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