So when will we see the Gog/Magog battle?

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This is the conclusion on the mini study on the who, when and were of Gog/Magog.  If you did not read the other posts, please read it HERE and HERE.

To recap, in the other posts I have tried to proof from Scripture that the Eze 38/39 battle can not happen before the AoD as Ezekiel states clearly that after the Lord destroyed the armies of Gog, the whole of Israel will know that He is God and He will not hide His face from them anymore. We know that will happen only when Jesus returns and Israel sees Him whom they have pierced and mourn over Him. When this happens friends, Israel will never have to flee again as they were warned by Jesus in the Gospels.

One thing the Lord showed me is that the traditional “Left Behind / Pre-Trib” view of end time prophecy is full of possible flaws. Now by saying that I am not implying that I have all the answers. I learn daily and has been proven wrong many times. So read what I have to say, eat the meat, spit out the bones and tell me about those bones.

I am going to ask you a question: When will Jesus return in physical form? (Not the rapture)

99% will say that He will return at Armageddon kill the armies, touch down on the mount of Olives and start the sheep/goat judgment. How accurate is this view? Lets look at some Scripture:

Rev 6:12-14 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places 

Rev 6:15-17 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This happens when the 6th seal is opened and I believe with it, the rapture. Now what do we read in these verses? Does it sound like the people does not have a clue on what is happening? No my friends, they know exactly what happened. They are fleeing and hiding from the wrath of the Lamb. They know Jesus has come for His Church.

Now lets take this a little further:

Eze 38:19-20 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Eze 38:23  Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD. 

Do you see the similarities between these two events? Great earthquakes, mountains moving, wrath of God/The Lamb. And the most fascinating one for me; ALL the men on the face of the earth will shake at His presence, at Magog and at the 6th seal.

Now the more I look at this and study it, the more likely it is for me that the Lord Jesus will return at the opening of the 6th seal in physical form, destroy Israels enemies (Islam) at the Gog war and fulfill Eze 38/39, Rev 6:12-17. The world will know, acknowledge and flee from His wrath, and that includes the antichrist. I fail to see any Scripture that says Jesus can not be physically in Jerusalem when He pours out His wrath on this world.

The wrath of God is gonna last for an unknown period, maybe only 30 days. I believe this is were the human race will perform their greatest sin. They will know that the Lamb of God is in Jerusalem. Most of them would have probably seen Him, they will know judgment is coming, angels would have warned them, but STILL they will not repent. And then comes Armageddon:

Psa 2:1-5 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?  The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. (9) Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.

Rev 17:14  These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev 19:19  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

These Scriptures indicate that the antichrist and the kings of the earth will plan to march up towards Israel to make war with the Lamb. They will know He is there. Armageddon will be a battle between the rulers and Jesus and in their anger and rage they will think that they will be able to kill Jesus. It may sound foolish, but they will most probably think that they can nuke Him with His plagues from the earth.

And now for the final point; Joel talks about the dreadful day of the Lord, a terrible battle. Most (including myself) always read it as the battle of Armageddon. But no, it is not. See the following:

Joe 3:1-2 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,  I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Did you see it? Were will this battle against the nations be? Aha, the valley of Jehoshaphat! The valley of Jehoshaphat is on the eastern side of Jerusalem, next to the mount of Olives and the valley of Meggido are miles op north from Jerusalem.

So in conclusion, I believe Joel is talking about the Gog/Magog battle. That battle will be won by the Lord Jesus in the valley of Jehoshaphat. Jesus will stay in Israel with His covenant people who will mourn over Him. He will restore them and so the whole of Israel shall be saved. The world will know what happened and will know that the Lord is God. There is no secret rapture and a physical Jesus  will fight Gog in full view of the world.

The end.

27 thoughts on “So when will we see the Gog/Magog battle?”

  3. Wickus,

    Very well put together my brother!

    The way that you have put this together, it sounds like Post-tribulation Return. The only question that I have is where is the Church?

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  4. Thanks my brother. The Church is discussed here:

    Rev 16:15-17 “This (Gog) happens when the 6th seal is opened and I believe with it, the rapture.”

    I still see the rapture as the traditional 6th seal pre-wrath rapture, but with the 6th seal being opened Eze 38 will happen and with it the rapture of the church. So during the wrath of God period the church will be gone and Israel will be with their Messiah, Jesus, in Israel. The rest of the world will suffer the wrath of the Lamb.

    And I am not dogmatic about this. Please, if I am in error, show me.

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  5. Good post wickus as usual,
    I wonder how long before Jesus returns they will start forcing the Mark of the beast on people.

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  7. Wickus,

    Well, you know that I asked you the question about the church for a reason.

    Ok, you have mentioned that you believe that the Lord Returns at the 6th seal – at the time that His wrath is poured on the Earth; and this includes the Rapture, by your own interpretation.

    Now my questions are….if the Rapture of the Church is “our gathering to Him” – then aren’t we with Him at His Return? Then, if we are protected from His wrath, and are not to go through it, (you “appear” to state that Jesus is Fighting prior to Armageddon at the Gog/Magog war) then I must ask again – where is the Church?

    Lets look at 1 Thessalonians 3:11-13:

    “11) Now may our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus, direct our way to you, 12) and may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all, as we do for you, 13) so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus WITH ALL HIS SAINTS.” (emphasis mine)

    and 1 Thessalonians 4:17:

    “17) Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.”

    Unless I am misunderstanding what you are trying to relay, then we must also look at Revelation 7:9 – where I believe that the Rapture has been completed, and the saints are “BEFORE” the Lamb. Two additional points, and/or a question of interest is that once we are with Jesus, we are with Him forever – does this includes the 144,000, who follow Him wherever He goes at this point?; and, I don’t believe (in my very humble opinion), that Eze 38:19-20 is just limited to the land of Israel, as all of the men of the earth shall shake at His presence. “His presence” does not necessarily mean that He is there physically, right? I mean God is Spirit, basically He His everywhere, and when He has cause such an event as described, it could definitely be said that His presences was felt – although He may not be seen.

    You then write this:

    “Most of them would have probably seen Him, they will know judgment is coming”

    The Return of Christ will be known to every person living on planet earth – I don’t think that there will be those who “probably seen Him”.

    Matthew 24:30 reads: “The the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory”.

    Revelation 1:7 further reads:

    “Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.”

    So in closing, I believe that you may be right with some of the information that you have presented. It also appears as if the wrath of God has definitely occurred before His Return, based on the very Scriptures that you have presented. Of course, I am certainly not dogmatic about my views as well – but your presentation has definitely caused me to look a bit further into the entire events that surround His Return. I’m now wondering when the Lord seals the 144,000 who are redeemed at that point, and appear to remain on the earth until His Return – what their actual purpose is?

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  9. Mr B you said,

    ” I’m now wondering when the Lord seals the 144,000 who are redeemed at that point, and appear to remain on the earth until His Return – what their actual purpose is?”

    I’m speechless. How awesome is the WORKING of the Holy Spirit! I have no words.
    How is it possible that we ask the same questions, have this deep yearing to dig deeper into what the Holy Spirit is prompting us to study and to seek His face on ?

    No WHERE in scripture do I see the 144000 PREACHING the gospel ( man taught teaching) These virgin Jewish men seem to have another purpose?

    I praise God for this angel 🙂

    Rev 14:6 ¶ And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

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  11. Mr B, thanks for your comment. As usual (and I love it) you are straight forward, trying to get to the truth. Now let my try to explain what I believe about the church and the sixth seal, and keep in mind that I don’t present this as absolute truth, but as my thoughts, trying to understand.

    Before I continue with Eze 38/39 battle, let me just explain why I believe that the rapture and resurrection of the saints happens when the 6th trumpet is blown. There is one more event in the Bible were many were raised from the dead that involved an earthquake and Jesus. I see it as a mirror event of sorts of Rev 6. Read the following:

    Mat 27:50-54 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

    Notice the similarities? Earthquake, saints rising from the grave, people acknowledging that Jesus is the Son of God. His voice shook the earth when He cried out with a loud voice and some saints did rise. His voice will shake the earth again, the earth will shake and the dead in Christ will rise and the Church will be raptured

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    Now this sounds like a noisy event, not a secret rapture. The unsaved will see what is happening and will run to hide from the Lamb as His wrath has come. This is where the Church is in my little theory, with the Groom. Rev 6:9-17 must be read in full.

    I do agree with you that Eze 38:19-20 is not limited to Israel. Ezekiel, Revelation and Joel seems to talk of the same event

    Eze 38:19-20 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

    Rev 6:12-17 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

    Does it sound like the same event? If these are different events, then my theory goes up in smoke, but I cannot find any reason to believe that these events are not the same. Now Ezekiel, Rev 6 and Joel does point to a terrible event and war, but it is not Armageddon. Joel says the following:

    Joe 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

    So in conclusion, I think that Jesus will be coming on the clouds (Rev 1:7) at the 6th seal (Rev 6), destroy Israel’s enemies at the valley of Jehoshaphat (Joel 3:2), His voice will shake the earth( Matt 27 and 1Th 4:16-17), the dead in Christ will rise and we who are alive will be raptured. Jesus will not return at Armageddon as the popular believe is because He will already be in Jerusalem. From the 6th seal to Armageddon Jesus will be on earth. The wrath of the Lamb who is also God will be during that time. Israel and the Church will be safe. This may only be for 30 days, I don’t know.

    About the 144000, I agree with Cole that they will not be evangelists as the popular teaching says. I cannot find it written anywhere. I believe this will be a subject of future study as I am not to sure on where they do fit in.

    I really hope I have answered your questions Mr B.

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  12. I forgot to add, I guess what we also have to look at is if Revelation in in chronological order or not. That can change the view of this subject completely.

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  13. 1Timothy 4 who wants all *men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

    The word men in the above verse does not exclude women so it’s safe to say the word men describing the 144,000 doesn’t exclude women either. “They did not defile themselves with women for they are pure virgins”…this is not saying that they are literal virgins…they are spiritually pure, they have not committed spiritual adultary with the world and/or false teachings. No married person is defiled by having sex with their spouse. This group of 144000 is spiritual Israel… we have been grafted in at the root and are fellow citizens with Gods own household.

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  14. “In het huis mijns Vaders zijn vele woningen (anders zou Ik het u gezegd hebben) want Ik ga heen om u plaats te bereiden; 3 en wanneer Ik heengegaan ben en u plaats bereid heb, kom Ik weder en zal u tot Mij nemen, opdat ook gij zijn moogt, waar Ik ben. (John 14)

    Wickus, the house of his Father where Jesus speaks off is the Father house, (heaven).
    So, with the rapture, we will go to heaven, the house of the Father..
    that is how I see it. So what are your thougts about that.. how should we or where should we place this part? you can let me know by e-mail as well if you like.

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  15. John 14
    1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    2In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
    3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    Awesome scripture Mathieu!

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  16. Mathieu, this is a excellent Scripture and a great promise from Jesus. In light of the understanding of end time prophecy I will explain it as follows:

    1) Although I believe with my whole heart that Jesus is preparing a place for us in the Fathers house, I also see this as some sort of a parable. Jesus said in another place that if He had to tell us more about heaven, nobody will believe Him, Our finite minds can not comprehend what is waiting for us when we pass over to eternity. The picture in my mind is a suburb with mansions built by the heavenly Architect were we live for millions of years, each of us in our own mansion, but I can tell you know that this picture will end in mind blowing boredom in less than a thousand years. So there must be more.

    2) With the rapture and resurrection we will be the same as Jesus, not as God, but in physical attributes. When we read what Jesus did after His resurrection, we can understand more on who we will be. Jesus was not limited by space and time. One moment He was with His friends and the next moment He was in Heaven with His Father. We will be the same. We will not be limited to the heavenly mansions like we will not be limited to earth. If my hypothesis is correct, we will be with Jesus in Jerusalem directly after the rapture. And this brings us to point no. 3.

    3) Jesus said in Joh 14:3 that were He is, we shall be also. Now if you link this to my little hypothesis, if Jesus is in Jerusalem, we will be in Jerusalem. If He is in heaven, we will be in heaven. We will be were He is. The Bridegroom and the bride will always be together.

    We must keep in mind that when Jesus returns, He will rule from Jerusalem for 1000 years. We will be with Him. But it is not to say that Jesus will me limited only to the earthly realm. As He (and us) will not be limited by space and time, we can be very easily be with Him in the Throne Room in heaven and the next moment on earth.

    This is just my view folks.

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  17. Wickus,

    You have not answered my question concerning where the Church is during your presentation. Are we with Christ to assist in what He is accomplishing during His fighting – or has He left us in Heaven to be protected against His wrath…I mean where are we? I do understand your analysis, and I believe that you are on to something. I do believe however that you have to include Revelation 19:11-21 in your analysis.

    Revelation 19:11-21 English Standard Version (ESV)

    “The Rider on a White Horse”

    11) Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The One sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12) His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and He has a name written that no one knows but Himself. 13) He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which He is called is The Word of God. 14) And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15) From His mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16) On His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. 17) Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, 18) to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.” 19) And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against Him who was sitting on the horse and against His army. 20) And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. 21) And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of Him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

    Now let me say that Revelation 19:11-21 seems to be in direct contrast in what you have mentioned……UNLESS – the Church is left in Heaven until His wrath is over. I wonder if this is a possibility?

    I will also mention Zechariah 14:1-15; English Standard Version (ESV)

    “The Coming Day of the Lord”

    1) Behold, a day is coming for the Lord, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. 2) For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3) Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. 4) On that day His feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward. 5) And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with Him. 6) On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost. 7) And there shall be a unique day, which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light. 8) On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea. It shall continue in summer as in winter. 9) And the Lord will be King over all the earth. On that day the Lord will be one and His name one. 10) The whole land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. But Jerusalem shall remain aloft on its site from the Gate of Benjamin to the place of the former gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses. 11) And it shall be inhabited, for there shall never again be a decree of utter destruction. Jerusalem shall dwell in security. 12) And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the peoples that wage war against Jerusalem: their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. 13) And on that day a great panic from the Lord shall fall on them, so that each will seize the hand of another, and the hand of the one will be raised against the hand of the other. 14) Even Judah will fight at Jerusalem. And the wealth of all the surrounding nations shall be collected, gold, silver, and garments in great abundance. 15) And a plague like this plague shall fall on the horses, the mules, the camels, the donkeys, and whatever beasts may be in those camps.

    Well, let me say that Zechariah 14 seems to support your theory to some degree, but it still declares that “all the holy ones” will be with Him. (verse 5)

    Let me again ask the question after reading these verses – Does Jesus keep the redeemed, with the exception of the 144,000 in Heaven while He goes forth and fights against those nations as He fights in the day of battle (verse 3) – Gog/Magog battle? Does He then return to Heaven, only to Return with His Church – seated on a White Horse after His wrath is complete? Is this possible?

    One other passage of Scripture that should be taken into consideration as well is Daniel 12:1-3.

    Daniel 12:1-3 English Standard Version (ESV) reads:

    “The Time of the End”

    1) “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2) And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3) And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

    In closing, all the aforementioned passages of Scripture seem to fit in your analogy. It’s just a matter of figuring out whether the Church is with Christ the entire time – or are they kept out of His wrath; only to finally return with Him, as the Millennial Reign begins?

    I’m looking for answers as well my brother…..please feel free to correct my thinking as well. I also would appreciate anyone else who can add to this understanding.

    God Bless you all!

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  19. Brother B
    You are on the right track. I think there is just some misunderstanding in small things. Let me put it this way:

    1) Before the 6th seal is opened or the Gog battle is fought, the church is on earth like we are right now.
    2) When the 6th seal is opened, the church is raptured and the dead in Christ will rise.
    3) During the same time, and I don’t know if it is before or after the rapture, but I will guess before, Jesus will slay the armies of Gog in Israel at the valley of Jehoshaphat.
    4) Israel will mourn over Jesus as they realize that He is their Messiah.
    5) The church will be united with Jesus wherever He is forever more. They can be with Him in Jerusalem as there is no way that the wrath of their Bridegroom will ever harm them. There is no need for the bride to hide in heaven, but we can be with Him in Jerusalem or wherever He is. Because we will be like Him, we will not be limited by space and time. We can be in Israel and the next moment in heaven.

    I am not sure about the chronology of these events, I am just relatively convinced because of the Scriptural evidence that these events will happen in the same time span. I don’t think we must expect all of these events to happen in an hour or two. It may take weeks for everything to unfold. And I don’t think that there will be any more Christians left on earth or anyone repenting from their sins after the 6th seal is open.

    I do believe that the armies of heaven in Rev 19:14 will have the church included. At this point the church will be with Christ for a time as the wrath of God was poured out on the earth. 30 days maybe? But I do not understand why you say that Rev 19:11-21 is a direct contrast of what I have mentioned. Care to explain Brother?

    Okay, I am just going to post this. I am sitting for an hour already reading, thinking, deleting and praying. This is a very interesting subject and worth of more study.

    Thank you Mr B and please anyone reading this, feel free to jump in with your thoughts.
    Awaiting your response.

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  21. 2 Corinthians 11:2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure *virgin to him.

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  22. Wickus, you wrote this:

    “I do believe that the armies of heaven in Rev 19:14 will have the church included. At this point the church will be with Christ for a time as the wrath of God was poured out on the earth. 30 days maybe? But I do not understand why you say that Rev 19:11-21 is a direct contrast of what I have mentioned. Care to explain Brother?”

    Okay, you wrote this in an earlier post – concerning the same topic:

    “So in conclusion, I think that Jesus will be coming on the clouds (Rev 1:7) at the 6th seal (Rev 6), destroy Israel’s enemies at the valley of Jehoshaphat (Joel 3:2), His voice will shake the earth( Matt 27 and 1Th 4:16-17), the dead in Christ will rise and we who are alive will be raptured. Jesus will not return at Armageddon as the popular believe is because He will already be in Jerusalem. From the 6th seal to Armageddon Jesus will be on earth. The wrath of the Lamb who is also God will be during that time. Israel and the Church will be safe.”

    Now let me explain where I see the direct contrast in what you wrote to Revelation 19:11-21.

    You have stated, (mentioned above) “Jesus will not return at Armageddon as the popular belief is, because He will already be in Jerusalem”. Well, I provided Revelation 19 – which works in harmony with Revelation 16 – in that Revelation 16 begins the battle of Armageddon, and Revelation 19:11-14, has Jesus Returning to Earth on a White Horse – with the armies in heaven. These “armies” are clothed with white linen, thus indicating that they are Saints, and that the Rapture had already occurred. We also know that angels will accompany Christ on His Return as well.

    So in your analogy, if Jesus is already on Earth – how is it that He is clearly shown to be returning to Earth on a White Horse in Revelation 19 with the armies of Heaven? This is where I see the contrast.

    In closing, perhaps there is something that I am not understanding in your analogy, and I may be entirely wrong. I will await your response.

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  23. the way I see it right now is that the church will go through tribulation, something I never thought I could believe before and this was a big shock . but we will not go through the wrath of God.. so somewhere before that time.. Jesus will come and take us to the place where he is building houses for us, wich clearly is heaven. That is what the rapture is. And from there, after God’s wrath is pulled out we will join Him back to earth…

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  25. Hi Mathieu,

    I understand your point as well, about the Raptured Church being in Heaven. There is no doubt about that, as Revelation 7 clearly has a number that no man can number before the throne of God – that has come out of the tribulation. This is why I have posed the questions that I have to Wickus.

    Something is going on here that definitely needs clarification on. In Zechariah 14 – which describes the Day of the Lord, it mentions in verse 3 -5 that Jesus will “go forth” and fight against the Nations that battle against Jerusalem. Now this seems to imply that He is indeed on Earth at that time. His feet stands on the Mount of Olives and it is split in two – from east to west. Reading on, in verses 5-7; we see Jesus coming with all the saints with Him – and this is on a day that there will be “no light”, and a day which is known to the Lord. This seems to be consistent with the Return of Christ, as described in Matthew 24:29-30.

    I don’t want to get too far ahead of Wickus’ response – but am wondering if as you have stated, that the Church is in Heaven (with the exception of the 144,000) during the Day of the Lord – Christ is fighting on Earth as the Church is protected for a short time; (His Wrath) only to Return to Earth later with the Church on a White Horse?

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  26. Mr Baldy, I see what you mean about the Church.Well, according to this verse, the Bride will be in Heaven with His Bride:

    Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
    Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
    And:
    Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    (A little of topic, but Rev 19:7 contradicts the pre-trib idea that the marriage of the Lamb will be during the tribulation. Here the Lamb is still not married, clearly at the end of the trib.)

    Now back to topic. Mr B, I see the contradiction that you refer too. For the life of me I can not think of any Scripture to proof my point, but if I may, let me speculate. I said Jesus will stay in Jerusalem as everyone on earth will fully understand what is happening, and the wrath of the Lamb has come. People will hide from Him according to Rev 6. But Rev 19 show Him returning on a white horse with His vesture dipped in blood. This vesture dipped in blood does show that He was in a previous battle Armageddon. Gog/Magog maybe?. Now lets say He does stay in Jerusalem for some unknown time to rejoice with Israel as the blindness was lifted from them. After the unknown time He returns to heaven, gathers the armies and they return to Israel to finish of the AC armies. Does this sound plausible?

    Interesting that you mention Zechariah 14. I think that chapter is discussing two battles. Lets look at verse 1-4:

    Zec 14:1-4 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

    May I suggest that these verses are about the battle of Gog/Magog and not the final Armageddon battle? Two things stand out.
    1) Jesus shall stand upon the mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. As discussed earlier, Gog/Magog may be in the valley of Jehoshaphat , east of Jerusalem as Armageddon is far away and north of Jerusalem. The mount of Olives is not close to Megiddo. (See picture in OP.)
    2) Rev 19 shows Jesus coming on a horse and staying on the horse until He destroyed all the armies Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    Friends, there are clearly 2 huge end time battles described in the Bible and all of these passages except for Eze 38/39 are seen as Armageddon. Clearly it is not so.

    Mr B and Matt, thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me. I am sure we are on to something here. God bless you and have a blessed resurrection day.

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  27. Similarities between the Bride of Christ and the 144,000.

    The 144,000 stand on Mount Zion – rev 14

    Mount Zion is the heavenly Jerusalem -Heb 12

    The New Jerusalem or heavenly Jerusalem is directly related to the bride of Christ – rev 21

    the *bride*, the New Jerusalem
    notice the numbers of the measurements of the New Jerusalem in Rev 21 and how those numbers match 144,000.

    The heavenly Jerusalem is the church of the firstborn (firstfruit) Heb 12

    144,000 are firstfruits rev 14

    Hebrews 12:22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the *firstborn* who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant

    Rev 21:9 Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the lamb. And he carried me away in the spirit to a mountain great and high and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God.

    Blessings

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