Who is Babylon? 28 facts to consider.

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I’ve just found the link to this study on FP. You can read the complete study HERE. I’m just going to post the referring Scripture as the original post does not have them. Some verses must be read in context to see the reference to Babylon, so keep your Bible handy. Scriptures is from KJV.

Who is end time Babylon?

Lets go a little further here and see if we can identify the city/nation that is end times Babylon.

1) Babylon has a deep water port. Rev 18:17 And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

Geographic Babylon (modern day Iraq) has no deep water port, so this Babylon in Revelation must be different from ancient Babylon

2) Babylon has Gods people within it. Is 47:6 I was wroth with my people, I have polluted mine inheritance, and given them into thine hand: thou didst shew them no mercy; upon the ancient hast thou very heavily laid thy yoke.

But:

3) Gods heritage has been destroyed. Jer 50:11 Because ye were glad, because ye rejoiced, O ye destroyers of mine heritage, because ye are grown fat as the heifer at grass, and bellow as bulls;

4) Gods people have been led astray by false shepherds. Jer 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

5) Gods people are swallowed up in a false religious system. Jer 51:44 And I will punish Bel in Babylon, and I will bring forth out of his mouth that which he hath swallowed up: and the nations shall not flow together any more unto him: yea, the wall of Babylon shall fall.

6) Geographically Babylon sits upon “many waters”. Jer 51:13 O thou that dwellest upon many waters, abundant in treasures, thine end is come, and the measure of thy covetousness. 

7) And is abundant in natural resources. Jer 51:13 O thou that dwellest upon many waters, abundant in treasures, thine end is come, and the measure of thy covetousness. 

8 ) The people of Babylon are a mingled people. Jer 51:53 Though Babylon should mount up to heaven, and though she should fortify the height of her strength, yet from me shall spoilers come unto her, saith the LORD.

9) They are a proud people. Jer 50:31-32 Behold, I am against thee, O thou most proud, saith the Lord GOD of hosts: for thy day is come, the time that I will visit thee. And the most proud shall stumble and fall, and none shall raise him up: and I will kindle a fire in his cities, and it shall devour all round about him.

10) They feel they are invincible. Is 47:8 Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children:

11) They are a people of seemingly great wisdom & knowledge. Is 47:10 For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me.

12) They are filled with graven images and idols. Jer 50:38 A drought is upon her waters; and they shall be dried up: for it is the land of graven images, and they are mad upon their idols.

13) They have many astrologers, sorcerers and monthly prognosticators. Is 47:13 hou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee.

14) Babylon is described as “the hammer of the whole earth”. Jer 50:23 How is the hammer of the whole earth cut asunder and broken! how is Babylon become a desolation among the nations!

15) Babylon uses the eagle as a national symbol. Dan 7:4,he first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.  Ezek 17:3, 12 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; A great eagle with great wings, longwinged, full of feathers, which had divers colours, came unto Lebanon, and took the highest branch of the cedar: (12) Say now to the rebellious house, Know ye not what these things mean? tell them, Behold, the king of Babylon is come to Jerusalem, and hath taken the king thereof, and the princes thereof, and led them with him to Babylon;

16)Babylons mother was the lion (England). Jer 51:38  They shall roar together like lions: they shall yell as lions’ whelps.

17) Babylon is a “destroying mountain”. Jer 51:25 Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain. 

18) It is full of “mighty men” & men of war. Jer 51:30 & 32 he mighty men of Babylon have forborn to fight, they have remained in their holds: their might hath failed; they became as women: they have burned her dwellingplaces; her bars are broken. (32) And that the passages are stopped, and the reeds they have burned with fire, and the men of war are affrighted.

19) Babylon even has a “space program”. Jer 51:53 Though Babylon should mount up to heaven, and though she should fortify the height of her strength, yet from me shall spoilers come unto her, saith the LORD.

20) Babylon is the greatest merchant nation on the earth. Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

21) All the nations of the earth do business with her. Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

22) Babylon trades in every type of commodity. Rev 18:12-13 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

At the time of her destruction:

23) Babylons people are drunken and asleep. Jer 51:39 & 57 In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (57) And I will make drunk her princes, and her wise men, her captains, and her rulers, and her mighty men: and they shall sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.

24) She is filled with traitors. Jer 51:2 & 14 And will send unto Babylon fanners, that shall fan her, and shall empty her land: for in the day of trouble they shall be against her round about. (14) The LORD of hosts hath sworn by himself, saying, Surely I will fill thee with men, as with caterpillers; and they shall lift up a shout against thee.

25) They dwell without care. Is 47:8  Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly,

26) They don’t realize they are Babylon. Jer 50:24 I have laid a snare for thee, and thou art also taken, O Babylon, and thou wast not aware: thou art found, and also caught, because thou hast striven against the LORD. & Is 47:8 Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children:

27) Babylon has oppressed Israel. Jer 50:33 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; The children of Israel and the children of Judah were oppressed together: and all that took them captives held them fast; they refused to let them go.

28) Babylon has caused the slain of Israel to fall. Jer 51:49 As Babylon hath caused the slain of Israel to fall, so at Babylon shall fall the slain of all the earth.

Would anyone like to guess which modern day nation fits this description in every way – Politically, economically , geographically, militarily, religiously?

151 thoughts on “Who is Babylon? 28 facts to consider.”

  1. Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
    Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
    Rev 18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
    Rev 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
    Rev 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
    Rev 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
    Rev 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
    Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
    Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
    Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
    Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

    In the book of Revelation Babylon is referred to as a city, not a nation.
    I am coming to think this may be referring to New York City, as it is the financial capital of the world etc etc.
    But I do not think the whole nation of America is Babylon. But either way it does not matter, cause God will be the judge of all things

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  2. It is a valid point Roma. But then again when there is reference in the Bible to Jerusalem, it usually involves the complete nation of Israel. Does the reference to a city in Revelation involve the nation or only the city? Soon it will become clearer.

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  3. The best write up I have ever read concerning Babylon. Wow! God is amazing!!!
    Did you know there is a Babylon, New York that is a port city…

    Thank you so much for sharing.

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  5. maybe Babylon might also be the worlds false relious system?
    I think that when the Bible talks about Babylon.. it may indeed be .. the city Babylon..
    wich Saddam Hoesein was rebuilding years back.. It could rise again.. look at dubai ..

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  6. A lot of interesting discussion, but until we see a pattern of fulfillment in one direction or another I think anything we do is speculation. I don’t think speculation is bad – logically it’s how we formulate an idea to test against the plumb line of scripture. If our speculation matches up, and continues to match up there might be something to it, if not we throw it away and start again.

    On another note, out of the revived Roman Empire, in addition to the now daily habit of expressing concern, needing to do somethign about Israel – We also have the daily pattern of bashing the current HR – Baroness Ashton
    http://euobserver.com/7/114937
    “Burma is changing, so where is Ashton?”

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  7. I think I would stress, that scripture refers to Babylon as “a city”, not a nation. Also God calls his people to “come out of her” . If you infer that Babylon is the whole nation of the USA (and one cannot honestly ignor the accurate descriptions), then how can the entire population of Christians leave the country and go elsewhere? I would lean more at New York City which is the apex of supposed culture and enlightenment, and where the nation’s wealth is flaunted…others have likewise in the past suggeted this. The very boarders of the city of New York are even oddly similar to that of the actual city of Babylon.

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  8. The Apostle Peter referred to ROME as BABYLON when Peter said the church at BABYLON sent its greetings. There was no church in literal BABYLON at the time. The Catholic encyclopedia admits this is a reference to ROME being BABYLON. Peter the APOSTLE called ROME, BABYLON! The seven heads are also seven kings, five are fallen, one IS, and the other not yet. At the time of the sixth king only a ROMAN and the GREAT CITY of ROME match 100%. The BEAST with two horns,the POPE, the HEAD OF TWO separate and sovereign entities, 1. The Holy See and 2. The State of Vatican City is in ROME! The whore, MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH is at that GREAT CITY, ROME! ROME is the BIRTH place of the EUROPEAN UNION! EVERYONE KNOWS IT’S ROME ALREADY! The little horn is a reference to the rise of the State of Vatican City which happened in 1929! The three horns picked up are 1. ITALY under MUSSOLINI, 2. GERMANY under HITLER and 3. SPAIN under FRANCO ! WORLD WAR 2, the attempted EXTERMINATION of the JEWS, the BIRTH OF ISRAEL fulfilling END TIME prophecy followed by the BIRTH of the IMAGE which is the EUROPEAN UNION born in ROME which is BABYLON on MARCH 25,1957! Look at the present situation in PERSIA. We are at the TIME OF THE END and it is OBVIOUS to me, at least.

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  11. Mystery Babylon has two elements in Rev 17 & 18. The religious side and the commercial side. Mystery Babylon is both a literal city AND a religious/commercial system that envelopes the nations in the last days. New York City is absolutely 100% the city of “Babylon” that is destroyed in Rev 18. While Peter did refer to Rome as “Babylon” in the New Testament, that only served to set a biblical precedent for the fact that the name of Babylon can be used to refer to some place other than the literal city in present day Iraq. Present day Rome and the Catholic Church are not Mystery Babylon. On the surface it might appear that they could be, but honestly they are not. Rome is not the financial capital of the world nor is the Catholic Church much of an influence in world affairs any more. New York City is the financial capital of the entire world.
    And as far as the religious system of Mystery Babylon is concerned, I have become convinced after MUCH research, that this is actually the great mystery religion that dates back to the Tower of Babel and ancient Egypt. It is the most ancient of cults. Today it would be known as freemasonry. Some might call it the illuminati. At its core, it is Luciferianism. Look at the back of the one dollar bill. Our nations history is steeped in this egyptian/babylonian mystery religion. And it is these Luciferians who control our nation today. They control our Congress and the Federal Reserve. And it is these people, the illuminati, who are currently preparing for a world economic takeover, and who are working very very hard to establish a new world order government. Look into it. These are the ones who are currently planning to depopulate the earth. These are the ones who will someday be “drunk with the blood of the saints.” These are the elite who seek to rule the world. And their religious/commerical power center is New York City. Ironic how New York City is also home to the United Nations. The first place the nations have united again in 4000 years since the tower of babel just happens to be…New York City.

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  13. I agree 🙂

    I was out early this morning walking on one the most beautiful white beaches in the world.Admiring the beauty of the early sunrise I asked the Lord to take hold of my hand. My first few minutes were spent in adoration of Him and His beautiful creation when I found myself overwhelmed with a sense of relief.A relief of seeing that we are coming to the UNITY of the faith (as you once noted Shorttribber) , where the Holy Spirit confirms and reaffirms to the rest of the body this most powerful realization and sober understanding..

    The greatest blessing for me here on ( Vic’s wall ) is to witness the “no compromise ” stand of those that fellowship here. Many of us have had to count the cost for daring to stand up and share this concern.Mystery Babylon HIDES it’s “Masonic Order” agenda behind a very deceptive mask…..’a religious one’ and it hates the one that exposes it’s diabolical hypocrisy! Wait how did Jesus refer to them? Vipers, righttttt !!!!

    I love this scripture understanding thank-you Shorttribber for the new understanding 🙂

    Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

    15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:

    16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

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  14. We are all entitled to believe whatever we want. However the belief that N.Y.C. is Babylon is absolutely ridiculous and I believe that 100% ! N.Y.C. is Babylon of the Book of Revelation,PROVE IT ! 1. Explain the little horn 2.Explain the three horns plucked up by the little horn. 3.Explain the beast with seven heads ten horns and ten crowns. 4. Explain the beast with two horns. 5. Explain the image of Rev.13 made by the people but caused by the beast with two horns. 6. Explain how the beast with seven heads ten horns and ten crowns, the beast with two horns and the Image all exist simultaneously. 7 Explain how N.Y.C. existed at the time the angel explained that GREAT CITY to John. 8 Show me EVIDENCE that will stand up PROVING N.Y.C. is Babylon. Bashing America is popular and easily done and proves nothing. Prove what you say!

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  15. I wanna hear this. I have my boots on, so shovel away. We all wanna hear it. Lets go,you know the saying, Put up or Shut up. If you don’t respond, I UNDERSTAND.

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  16. William, this whole site “proofs” you wrong, so please understand why I don’t write a lengthy response to try to “proof” anything. In the end I don’t want to “proof” anything as we get clearer understanding on the prophetic Scripture as time goes on. For now what is written on this site makes the most sense of what is happening related to the Bible. It may change, we may get better revelation and then the trend of this site will also change.

    Oh yes, I have my boots on and I will not shut up. While there is currently more proof that the EU is the beast, the 10 (WEU) are the ten horns and the little horn may be Solana, I am not interested in discussing the RC/Pope theory. And please note, it is also just a theory.

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  18. Wow William you are a very angry man………….:(

    Your arrogance is clearly evident in your most telling usage of the words ” boots and shoveling”, put up or shut up” wow words not from a heart that is ….

    Better left unsaid…..

    Time to hit the knees and will be back after prayer 🙂

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  20. ..and you dear Andre bless our socks off with your humility, agape love and undeniable spirit of grace. Thank-you for that.

    After much prayer I choose rather to heed the word laid on my heart…… 🙂

    Jam 3:16 — For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

    Jam 3:17 — But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

    Jam 3:18 — And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

    Pro 13:10 — Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.

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  22. People walk out of “church” everyday “feeling” all warm and fuzzy, full of feelings of love and happiness. After all, the greatest is love. They also walk out just as ignorant as when they walked in, but they’re feeling the love. They will return for another dose from Dr. Feelgood as soon as the high wears off. They know the Priest, Pastor, or Reverend or whatever he or she calls him or herself is more than happy to give another fix to such needy and deserving people. There is zero biblical evidence for the claim that N.Y.C. is Babylon! The W.E.U. is DEFUNCT and even if it still existed it is MOOT anyway. So long and I hope everyone “feels” better. I’m not upset, in fact I “feel” pity because of the ignorance

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  23. I sincerely doubt it that anyone is visiting this site to feel warm and fuzzy. And this is really not a subject to argue about. There are many end time theories and just as you feel that you can proof that the RCC is the antichrist/beast/Babylon, so I think I can proof that the US/New York can be linked to Babylon and Europe is the beast system. So to say there is no proof means that you have not read a single post on this site.

    We just have to agree to disagree. The proof of the pudding is the eating. I do think that most people visiting here is aware of the RCC theory as it is one of the oldest one around, dating from the middle ages. As there is no proof that the age old theory is progressing, we are focusing on current events to try to put the puzzle pieces together.

    You may be interested in the following:

    The harbinger for America – Isa 9:10

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  24. william i totally agree with you are in the end times.its time people woke up to the truth no matter how hard or difficult to swallow.Rome is definitely in my opinion Babaloyn.I believe the Roman catholic church is a forefront of fasasad that satan used to destroy gods purpose.satan’s work is to steal gods pupose kill his heritage and destroy everyone who belives in GOD OUR HEAVENLY FATHER CREATOR OF THIS UNIVERSE. satan was thrown out of heaven cuz he wanted to be worshiped like a god.He wasnt a god.Satan was given power to run to and fro on the earth.all over the world we have images of gods! Even here in America! OUR NATIONAL SYMBOL IS THE EAGLE,the statutue of liberty is an statue given to America frome ROME.The statue is the same in rome except ours is a woman god named after the sun ra god.Instead of arguing, do some research.We are his children and he loves us.lets not fight witheachother.lets learn to come together in love and harmony so we gods people can be a light into this fallen lost world. William is right and so are you.united states is the “whore of babaloyn.” we have united with rome along time ago. ##1look up the different gods around the world, #research the roman catholic chuch#3hitler and jews(which most are jesus’ heritage,gods people)#4 research the statue of liberty and the geographic reasoning of the layout of the white house.Why is it laid geographicaly like the shape of the satanic symbol ?why are we moving into a new roman empire?check out the Buildeburgs and the real meaning of the U.N. It was very difficult for me to swallow cuz everything i learned and believed turned out to be lies EXCEPT for THE BIBLE..RESEARCH PEOPLE!!!QUIT ARGUING.HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO BE THE LIGHT WHEN WE CANT EVEN LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS OR BROTHERS IN CHRIST??? god bless everyone and i pray for everyones eyes to be opened.

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  25. It is always interesting how someone can warn people not to argue when they disagree on something and then being accused of not loving his neighbors. It is because Christians are brainwashed into believing that if you disagree with your brother over a end time idea, it is because you want to argue and you hate your brother. Rhonda, I may disagree with William’s view on Rome and how the end times will play out, but in Christ he still remains my brother. No one can say for sure that he understands end time prophecy 100% and know exactly how everything will play out. By disagreeing and discussing, we learn from each other. Lets agree to learn from each other.

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  26. Rhonda I double checked to make sure before I posted this – the Statue of Liberty was a gift from the people of France to the US as a commemoration of the alliance between France and the US. Rome is in Italy.

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  27. People who lobby for the RC church as Babylon also tend to think that the Pope is the false prophet, but those two ideas are not complementary. The beast hates Babylon and destroys it, while the false prophet is totally in sync with his agenda. If the Pope is the false prophet, which is quite possible, then Babylon must be someone else. Someone who is a rival for control of the world and thus must be eliminated by the AC, as she is a thorn in his side. She has always ridden the beast, used him for her own purposes, and he resents it. He wants out from under her. Many say that it can’t be America because Babylon is guilty of drinking the blood of the saints and so far America has not been slaughtering Christians. Just wait people, it is coming. We are Laodicea. What Christians are so arrogant, blind, greedy, and into feel good Christianity as Americans? Persecution is just beginning in this country, but it will come. Persecution is plaguing Christians around the world. Why do Americans think they are exempt, especially when they are the Laodicean church? God must refine his Bride. Rev. 3:17-19 “Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.” Daniel 11:35 “And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.”

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  28. kids kids kids,… my children, my children,….. your closer now, but light years away. soon i will share with you the scope of this mystery which surpasses the bounds of your present imaginations. with all blessings, in Jesus our savior seek the peace of God first and foremost

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  30. the substance is coming connie,….His name is Hosanna. and if you look-you will see-that i said,soon i will share……now you get a chance to….wait. thats all. and as far as patronizing goes, i ask forgiveness cause i didn’t mean to actually come across that a way,….i truely was being playful saying kids, and my children and the rest…., at least i think i was?! perhaps i’ve got an unconscious ax to grind- ?? thanks for the comment really, and in Christ, goodness will come of all this, undoubtedly., but thats old news, old Good news that is! I do declare,connie. Bless you

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  31. Mystery babylon is in the fullest sense mysterious, for starters,…mysterious as all Hell. i will be saying more as the Lord leads me to speak

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  32. Connie 🙂

    I was not home to be able to comment to your first post ( I think this is the first time I’ve seen you post ) and wanted to say this then and will now….

    I love you already 🙂

    I praise the Lord for your boldness , discernment and a clear love for His word and TRUTH.

    If I may be so forward Connnie do you live in the US of A?

    Blessings,
    Your sister in Christ

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  33. Yes, I do live in the US. I have orders to remain here as there is work I am to do. That may mean my death, but I understand that. Martyrdom is something I have taught my children from a young age. We understand the cost. I know I am on government lists. I’m okay with that.

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  34. its everywhere but no place at all, yet its in all places, but nowhere at all. it moves around and expands and grows,…and where it finally will LAND, we all seek to know. but no one knows for sure.{ the land of shinar???…as time goes by???} Things do change!…., at an accelerated rate!!…. as brother Mathieu has mentioned in his comment above,…and the more things change, the more they stay the same!,….as there is nothing new under the sun! Jerusalem,jerusalem why oh why?/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ constantinople, mecca, rome,…where will the harlot finally call home? In the end gypsy girl, you will find,….that you can never go home anymore. Placing your faith in Christ Jesus places YOU, in the new jerusalem, Home sweet home,…… your suppers ready for you. Listen to short-tribber and know…Rev.12:10 and be free while you wait, while i wait,.. while we all wait, expectantly trusting, for the wonder of wonders, manifestation of the spirit of truth……..fruition in Christ! …give satan no place, give babylon no place,….keep your eye on the Prize, The Pearl of Great Price. If God be for me,…who can be against me. The battle is the Lord’s. blessings, tony

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  35. Truely, we overcome by clinging tenaciously to our child-like faith in our Lords completed work on the cross, amen. The babylon demonic spirit, parasitic in its nature, will find a host organism,…but overcomers, by definition, will give it no place. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord,…Hosanna in the Highest! Hosanna, the substance of all things Godly and holy.

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  36. ” Listen to short-tribber and know”

    It will be so good when our “testimony” is one and the same as Christs was/is.

    When the “Kingdom of God, and the Power of His Christ comes”, we will know it, and so will all the inhabitants of Babylon.

    “know”, is not the best word Tony, what I know is just what I hear or read……what’s important is who ya hear…….and what ya read.

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  37. Tony. Are you trying out for the ballet? Because you sure are doing a lot of dancing and not conveying much in the way of new information. I eschew obfuscation. If you have a point please make it. I, at least, weary of your attempts at titillation while rendering vague cryptic spiel.

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  38. connie, thats me,…thats the way i communicate. i’m saying that the most important part of the prophecy is to avoid the essence of what babylon is…. not where it is. …be not partakers of her sin. my paragraph above says it all, for those who have ears to hear, truthfully. allow yourself to actually see what i have spoken. look again,…did you see the 7 hills diagram, do you know that jerusalem, mecca, constantinople and rome are all cities on 7 hills, etc….

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  39. dear tribber, to know, is where its at my friend,…be still and know that I AM GOD. Know and believe and rest in HIM alone,………….as you know

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  40. Tony, now that’s succinct and understandable. Thank you. I think God prefers that we be as straightforward as possible with our teachings, not try to be coy and secretive. Just my opinion of course.

    Not to be picky, but Rome does not actually sit on seven hills. They are east of the river and are not a part of Vatican city at all. Just as so many things are stretched when people are trying to prove their theological point, this was one of those things that was taught, but which in actuality is inaccurate. I haven’t actually looked to see about the other cities. Actually the best translation of the Greek Scriptures say that she sits on seven mountains, not hills. Mountains spiritually represent a nation in the Bible and this passage is a vision, so it is meant to be taken spiritually. In fact as God usually does when He gives a vision, He also helps interpret it for us. We can see verification that they stand for nations when it says that it also stands for seven kings (the leaders of those seven nations). John is further told that of these seven, five have fallen, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece, one is, (still ruling during John’s day) the Roman Empire, (we can see the statue of Nebuchanezzar here in this list) and one is yet to come – my personal belief is that the seventh refers to the Third Reich. Babylon has sat on seven mountains or nations and ridden those seven kings of those nations over history since her inception in ancient Babylon of Nimrod. This is her history. What do all of these have in common? They have all been world powers and all persecuted or tried to destroy Israel, (which is my reason for believing Hitler is number 7). The beast to come is the eighth and is of the seven. How is he of the seven? The evil spirit which comes out of Hades to rule once again is of the seven because he has been the possessor of each of those seven kings bodies and souls through demonic possession and hence the leader of those seven world powers. Babylon is both political and spiritual and the spiritual part of her is occultic. I am not exactly sure of how her relationship with the beast has worked as they have shared power, but as I believe she is also a real spiritual entity, I would not discount that she and the beast have been lovers. I think the honeymoon is about to end though, as he will destroy her. I won’t say that Rome (meaning the Vatican) doesn’t have a big part to play in end times, because I think she does, but not necessarily as Babylon, and definitely not based on the seven hills theory, as the Vatican does not sit on seven literal hills.

    I have a problem believing that Jerusalem is Babylon, as Babylon is to be destroyed never to be inhabited again, and as Israel will be the place where most people live at least at the beginning of the millennium, I find it hard to believe that Jerusalem will be obliterated off the face of the earth.

    I agree that we need to avoid being a part of the world system, regardless, but there will be a time when those who have survived the sword of tribulation not only need to spiritually remove themselves from Babylon, but physically remove themselves from Babylon, so they do not get obliterated with her. And where are they to go when the time comes? Scriptures tell us that they are to go to Jerusalem, the earthly one, not the heavenly one, to await Christ’s return at the Mount of Olives. Jeremiah 51:50. This would also seem to eliminate Jerusalem as a candidate.

    As for the other cities, I don’t believe seven literal hills have anything to do with it, so if that is the criteria being used, I don’t know that the right conclusion as to her identity can be reached. But that is just the way I believe the Scriptures lay things out. You have every right to disagree.

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  41. sounds like we are friends!,…and for this i give thanks! and praise to JESUS!!! let us reason together, in LOVE. i love you, ALL, tony

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  43. …….results are allways perfect, but thats old news!!…. Right now i’m just playin’ around with lyrics. The greatest and most joyful thing, is that He has called us aside!!!!!!! oh boy!we have hope, n VISION! Praise you Lord,…keep us where you are, allways.

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  45. Ya let’s stay on track 🙂

    Connie thank-you for taking the time to lay it out . We’ve discussed this ad nauseam and to be painfully honest it’s now become a distraction and diversion from the enemy to keep us all ” tied up” and almost a “diverting” us away from what the Lord is affirming to His own.

    Not to derail the discussion here but for the past few days many in the body have personally expressed a deep groaning in their spirits and most of it was discussing the soon –

    1) Casting out of Satan” as war is waged in heaven, ( once and for all where there was not longer place found for him ) and the

    2) Start of the 42 mon trib –

    3) The man of sin being in dwelt by this demonic being,

    4) The opening up of the pit ” as well as

    5) Michael leaving his postion of ( restraining the AC from being revealed UNTIL the APPOINTED TIME )

    6) And that we being seated in Christ Jesus — “[God] has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places Eph 2 : 6 )

    7) are we in a major spiritual battle and being prepared for Jacobs trouble?

    8) When Michael stands up this propels us into Jacobs trouble and the revealing of the man of sin.

    The heaviness is almost unbearable and praise the Lord that we overcome by His blood 🙂

    Connie you said ” How is he of the seven? The evil spirit which comes out of Hades to rule once again ”

    Apollyon?

    Rev 9:11 — And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

    Satan’s expulsion ?

    Rev 9:1 — And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

    Daniel 12:1
    And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    Soon war in heaven ?

    Revelation 12:7-9
    And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    Michael’s job – withholding man of sin being revealed until the appointed time?

    2 Thessalonians 2:6–10
    6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume swith the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    I feel better now that I’ve gotten that all out…thank’s guys!

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  46. amen Hisown–it world scene is ominous-an eery calm before a tremendous storm if anyone is asking me–and no time to be distracted. (one of the oldest tricks the devil plays isn’t it?)………..plead the Blood-i say this to myself and to all.

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  47. Sorry, I didn’t realize trying to discuss the truth of what prophecy said was a distraction for you guys. Didn’t mean to cause problems here by rehashing stuff you’ve beaten to death. I agree with most, but not all you’ve written Hisown. I don’t see how Apollyon could possibly be the beast given that he arrives on the scene after the tribulation is over according to Scripture. But if discussing these things is upsetting you folks I will cease and desist.

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  48. hi connie. your input is not upsetting (glad for it) so i’m sorry that was poorly said by me. the subjects are free to discuss around here and that is a blessing but i know for me i have to keep in the back of my mind how the devil wants to divide and distract folks because it can sometimes go with the territory. that is what i’m referring to and why i want to keep my guard up like we all must do—all the while in these more darkening days—pleading the Blood……………..

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  49. there is truely nothing to fear–but, fear itself,..so i say, fear not. Perfect love cast out all fear. i ain’t scared,…honestly. no offense but it seems to me that the fears all in your head. chill people. we were reasoning together,….it’s scriptural.

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  50. Connie you have so misunderstood what I tried to convey….I’m sad about that. Remember LOVE is the unity of the spirit here 🙂

    You said ” I don’t see how Apollyon could possibly be the beast given that he arrives on the scene after the tribulation is over according to Scripture”

    Did I ever once state that this is the beast? if so please show me 🙂

    Please provide scripture that states this is occurs AFTER the tribulation.

    Ps. Please keep in mind that most of us are pre-wrather’s at this site:)

    Blessings to you and BTW you are not the only one that has been preparing their family to ” die for Christ ” …been doing that since 1993:)

    Welcome to the club 🙂

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  51. Hisown, I guess I misunderstood when you said, “Connie you said, ‘How is he of the seven. The evil spirit which comes out of Hades to rule once again.'” Then you wrote “Apollyon?” I took it that your suggestion was that it was Apollyon especially since you followed it up by quoting Rev. 9:11, then wrote “Satan’s expulsion?” I guess I misunderstood, but those things in that order seemed to lead to the conclusion that was what you were saying. Sorry if I misunderstood .

    As to why Apollyon is released after the tribulation, in Matt. 24:29 we are told that “Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken” Then in Rev.6:12-17 we find these same signs in the sixth seal. Then we are told that AFTER these things (all the seals including the sixth) the 144,000 are sealed, and the martyrs that were to be killed as those in the fifth seal were, the ones they were told to wait for, show up on the sea of glass. Then the seventh seal is opened. The seventh seal contains the trumpet judgements, and the fifth trumpet is Apollyon. So chronologically the tribulation ends, the sixth seal is opened, the 144,000 are sealed to get through the trumpet judgments, specifically the fifth trumpet judgment (Rev. 9:4) and then he is released in the fifth trumpet. So chronologically Apollyon is not released until after the tribulation is over, as he is in the seventh seal. And by the time the sixth seal occurs according to Matthew, the tribulation is over, so naturally it is over by the seventh seal. Does that make sense to you?

    I was pre-wrath when Marv R. first came out with his book,about 24 years ago, but in my continuing Bible study, I still could not reconcile some of the Scriptures and it continued to bother me quite badly. It took another twenty years before I was able to reconcile all the Scriptures and came to understand that when Paul said the rapture is at the last trump, he wasn’t being metaphorical. He actually meant that it literally is at the last trump. After coming to this realization I recognized that the reason God had not shown it to me years ago was that it was difficult to go from pre-trib to pre-wrath, but that if he had shown me last trump at that time I couldn’t have handled it mentally, emotionally, or spiritually. As twenty years had passed and marytrdom and the horrors of what will be happening no longer bothered me the way it had, He was able to lead me further down that path of horror that lies ahead, because as bad as the tribulation will be, the world gets worse for those who survive. I do not expect you to agree with me on this point of the timing of the rapture, as this is one of those things that God brings everybody along at their own pace. I think that’s why pre-tribs can’t see the problems with their belief, they simply can’t handle the idea of going through the tribulation and they are stuck where they are.

    Nice to find some people who at least believe we are going through the tribulation. Few people seem to, although the numbers do seem to be growing.

    Blessings

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  53. HI Shortribber. I reviewed your analysis. I have come across something similar before and did a lot of research into it, found that I just could not reconcile it to Scriptures the way I was seeing them play out, and even wrote an article on why Scripturally I don’t believe they can overlap the way you say. In finally understanding what I believe the sixth seal is, it made the following four trumpets all make complete sense, as they are the result of the events of the sixth seal, hence chronological.

    I agree that the ungodly saying that God’s wrath has come in the sixth seal is not the announcement of God’s wrath. That occurs in Rev. 11 as you said, but it is totally unnecessary to overlap the trumpets and seals to put the rapture at the seventh trumpet, so I don’t like to rearrange God’s Word to accommodate my thinking if I don’t have to. I believe He wanted to make it as easy for us as it could be, considering how difficult it is to begin with.

    It took me a lot of years of removing the Babylonianism from my Christianity to have a clearer view of Scripture, and then studying the Laws and Prophets to finally piece together exactly what the scroll was and how it all worked, why things are laid out the way they are in Revelation, why some of the statements which seem out of place are not, etc. (Guess that was why Paul told us we should move on from the gospel teachings and get into the meat of the Word, which for them (and us) was (and is) the Old Testament, as they didn’t have a New Testament. The O.T. holds most of the keys to unlocking Revelation, and I don’t just mean the book of Daniel. The information to unlocking it starts in Genesis.)

    Now for me it all fits together like a glove or finished puzzle where I see the big picture clearly now, so while I am not so closed-minded that I will not consider what other people have to say – I will be a Berean and check everything out – if I find that it doesn’t fit in the whole picture without having to rearrange God’s Word out of order, I am not going to wreck the puzzle I have put together. But you are, of course, entitled to believe and interpret Scripture how you believe it should be. We can agree to disagree.

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  55. My parents were into studying prophecy when I was just a teenager (40 +) years ago and they (and consequently I) thought it was going to be soon then. I also thought it was all going to begin 25 years ago when I got back into studying it and became pre-wrath, then 20 years ago, then 15 years ago, then 10 years ago, then 5 years ago, and I still keep thinking ,”how can it possibly go any longer.” Yet each year keeps going by. I finally got to the point where I decided that I wouldn’t worry about it beginning until I see a temple go up in Jerusalem. Then I’ll know we are in the 70th week and I’ll start counting my days. Of course my days could be up long before then by other means, so we all do what we should and that is try to live for the Lord each day as if it were our last. In the meanwhile, I try (with nothing but failing results) to convince pre-tribbers that they should expect to go through the tribulation because they are pathetically (and arrogantly might I add) spiritually unprepared to do so.

    Blessings.

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  56. Well, personally I wouldn’t hold my breath on that new temple construction, or a seven year trib. if I were you.
    I’m very much convinced by scripture that only half of the 70th week remains unfulfilled.

    Just say’n

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  57. We can agree to disagree. Question, it would seem that you apparently don’t believe there is going to be a temple, so what would you think if one does go up? You are aware that everything is ready including a pre-fab construction, the altar is built, the priests are trained, all the accoutrements are made, etc.

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  58. Yes, I’m aware of those things. I will with all joy admit my error if that should happen.

    They also made preparations for a much different Messiah then the one that showed up in the fullness of time also.

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  59. True, but without God’s divine intervention, there would not even be an Israel today. There is no need for a nation Israel if there will not be a real temple. It truly is the only reason it is necessary.

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  61. Amen Shorty 🙂 wow it’s great to see you’re back!

    Re: the AOD (whoso readeth, let him understand:) I love that!!

    Here again the Lord calls us to a “laying aside” of the man taught philosophies and doctrines of men , ye know that “Babylonianism” deception that Connie refers too of which we all have being called to come ” come out of ” .

    I praise the Lord that He does not dwell in houses…but in us, the NAOS 🙂 ye now spiritual stones and stuff 🙂

    The apostasy is here, satan sits in the seat of the congregation….

    Let No Man deceive you by any means:

    The falling away…..let no man deceive you by any means:

    Jesus said…If it were possible even the very elect would be deceived.

    The thing that got me about the typical pre trib ( left behind series eeerr doctrine) was why would my God re-claim a ” temple ” for Himself AFTER Satan had defiled it for 42 months when He clearly askes me NOT to commit spiritual fornication with this temple – my body 🙂

    The enemy of my soul that “drew ” the angels in rebellion against God has another agenda…he ( claims ) …I WILL SIT upon the mount of the CONGREGATION.

    He already does 😦 how sad was that realization when the precious Holy Spirit affirmed that back in 2007!

    Isa 14:13 — For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

    It’s okay if we agree to disagree, we are in a time of great deception….let each man be fully persuaded in his own mind. I prefer to stick to what the Holy Spirit promised and affirmed way back in 1993 when the Lord “called me” out of false religiosity 🙂

    But ye have an Unction from the Holy One, and Ye know all things.

    I John 2:27…..But the Anointing which ye have received of Him Abideth in you,
    and ye need not that any man teach you:

    But as the Same Anointing teacheth you of all things, and is Truth, and is No lie,
    and Even as it hath taught you,

    Blessings and shalom.
    Ye shall Abide in Him….

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  62. Amen Hisown,
    Mostly a time thing as usual, why I’ve not posted….still can’t do it much but I will here and there still.

    Bless ya.

    good insight on this, “I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation”, by the way.

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  63. I did say that I was open-minded to consider, but that requires me probing your reasons and proofs for what you are espousing, it is not an attack, okay? Here’s a few questions for those who believe the temple spoken of in Matt. 24 is our body. I’m not aiming the questions at anyone in particular. First, when Christ spoke to this disciples on the Mount of Olives and mentioned the abomination of desolation mentioned in Daniel, to what did they immediately think he was referring? Did they think he was referring to their bodies, (to which Daniel in his writings would have never made the connection between our body and the temple – to him the temple was the literal temple) or did they think he was referring to that abomination perpetrated by Antiochus Epiphanes about which Daniel did write (if you don’t believe Dan. 9 refers to it, then at least Daniel 11 does) that eventually gave them their holiday of Hannukah? Are we not supposed to understand the Scriptures the way the disciples would have, and if their immediate thought was to that event shouldn’t we also interpret it that way?

    Second, do you see every person, ungodly or saved as being the temple of God? That it is simply the human body that is the temple of God? Or does a person have to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit for the body to become the temple of God? If everybody is the temple of God, how is it that the temple of God in many cases will be sent to hell? What is the Scripture to back this up? If just the saved are the temple of God by virtue of being indwelt, then how is it that antichrist sits in the hearts of Christians? Do all Christians forsake their Christianity and take him as their god? What are the Scriptures for this, for that is not what I see Scripture teaching. I see martyrdom for not accepting him as God, so he doesn’t sit in the hearts of Christians declaring himself God.

    How are the Jews supposed to flee Jerusalem when they see the abomination of desolation, if it is not a physical event? What clues them in that it has happened, if it is just in people’s hearts? They are not to even stop to grab a coat, so this implies something sudden and everyone will see it at the same time. How do they do this, if it is an event within people’s hearts? Should not everybody in Jerusalem perceive this event at the same time so they can get out of Dodge?

    What exactly is John measuring and what is meant then in these verses in Rev. 11:1-2 “And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.[2] But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.” (this is the 42 months after the AOD – verified by Luke 21:24.) My situation is, I take the Scriptures literally, which is why I see this as a real temple, real altar, real courtyard, real city.

    As to Israel being blessed without a temple, my point was that Israel will not become a godly nation again until they see their Messiah return. Zech.Ch. 12-14., Rom. 11:25-26, Lk 21:24. And before that happens, they will have again been dispersed out of Israel at the time of the abomination. Matt. 24, Rev.12. So to what purpose is bringing them back as a secular nation when there is really no need to and they will be dispersed again, if there is no temple to be built? On the other hand, if the temple is real, it absolutely requires that they be brought back as a nation, secular or otherwise, just to get it up for the purpose of having a re-enactment, although on a much larger scale, of Antiochus Ephiphanes’ blasphemy. All through Scripture I see God have near and far fulfillments of the same prophecies. For myself, I see this as the same thing. Antiochus was the near, and AC is the far. And just as Passover became the ultimate Passover when Christ became the Lamb, and the temple was destroyed both times on the 9th of Av, I see Christ’s Second Coming happening to fulfill the fall festivals, and the temple being sanctified again on Hannukah a second time. God loves to re-use dates with the same events. Also it is very interesting that in Daniel 12 he says that there will be a period of 1260 days (to the end of the 42 months when antichrist’s reign ends and Christ’s begins at the fall feasts) but then another 30 days to 1290 (in which the vial judgments occur) and then another 45 days when all will be blessed. I’m sure you know that there are 75 days from Yom Kippur to Hannukah. Coincidental? I don’t think so, but then that is the conclusion I came to from my own research. You are free to disagree.

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  66. Thank’s Shotribber for taking the time to answer the questions posed . As you say “time” is so valuable and I for one don’t have that privilege right now.Traveling happens 🙂

    Thank-you that humility and agape love is our ( only ) rule here , not forgetting – Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.:)

    Pro 13:10 — Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.

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  67. Wow- quite a discussion going on in here. Welcome to our little group of watchers Connie – I know that the initial entry can be a little rough, we have a lot of very strong personalities and strongly held opinions in here.

    I have to say I am with you – I am basically pre-wrath but I have admit I have some uncertainty about how scripture is to be interpreted with respect to the timing of the rapture of the church. It would seem the wrath starts after the 6th seal- and we know we are not destined for wrath. It would also seem we are not to be with our lord until the last trumpet or the seventh trumpet (or are all seven of these trumpets are “the last trumpet” from God’s point of view? I honestly don’t know).

    So I don’t know how to interpret that – other than I’ve heard at least one teacher place the seals/trumpets/bowls as like nesting dolls in the text. so the first six seals- then the seventh contains all the trumpets – I’m not sure about the seventh trumpet containing all the bowls – but there there it is. It’s always bugged me that I can’t find the third woe! Is the third woe the judgement, the appearance of Christ, the battle of Armageddon – it’s always bothered me.

    One think I’d caution us all about is the 70th week. It’s always bugged me that everyone presumes the 70th week must contain all of this – and frankly I think that’s very narrow minded and possibly ignoring the clearer meaning of the text. The whole narrative of the 70 weeks is about Israel – and at some point future we know that Israel is redeemed. It would seem to be that this redemption occurs prior to the Christ’s return at the mount of Olives and is related to the ministry of the 144,000. I think the endpoint – the putting an end to transgression and sin – refers to a putting an end to transgression and sin for Israel by the remnant of Israel embracing their messiah and mourning for the one that was pierced – being covered by his blood, thereby putting an end to their transgression as he has done for all of us already. It’s not that we don’t sin any more, and that Israel won’t sin any more – but an end will be made to their seperation from sin and they will acknowledge at that point when God removes the scales from their eyes and puts an end to their hardness of heart that their sin and transgression has been forever and completely paid for the by the blood of the lamb. Sorry to throw this into the mix here – but I’ve been away from my keyboard a few days and wanted to make sure we were considering all the posssibilities.

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  68. I had to post one quick verse before I logged off here…

    Jesus also said….

    Luk 21:20 — And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

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  70. Okay, Shortribber, I read through the link. Now as I understand it, and it was not all that easy to follow the threads as the postings seem to be somewhat disjunct and a little difficult to follow, you believe there is only 3 1/2 years left, and that Christ’s crucifixion was the middle of that week, correct? Does that mean you saw the beginning of that 70th week as starting with Christ’s ministry? I just want my facts straight before addressing this issue.

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  71. yes…beginning of Christs ministry….and I do apologize for the abstract nature of that thread.
    It is difficult to follow, as you said…but that is why it only gives an answer in part.

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  72. “Are we not supposed to understand the Scriptures the way the disciples would have, and if their immediate thought was to that event shouldn’t we also interpret it that way?”

    Generally that is true…but Daniel was told to seal up the dream and vision until the time of the end. It seems very possible their understanding of what Christ said would most likely have been somewhat limited.

    How can we be sure of what their immediate thought was really?

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  73. Justasheep, if you read carefully, you will see that the seventh seal is the trumpet judgments. When the seventh seal is broken, seven angels are given seven trumpets. The reason for the silence becomes clear when you understand what the scroll and seals are. The seals on the scroll are conditions that must be met for the scroll to be opened. I believe this scroll is the mortgage on planet earth based on the events that transpire being the very ritual that Judaism used to redeem a mortgage. When Adam & Eve sinned they forfeited dominion and Satan became the prince and power of the air. That was why he could offer Christ all the kingdoms when he tempted him. They were his to offer. If you study the O.T. Laws (which are God’s laws), a mortgage, if it could not be redeemed by the original owner, could be redeemed by a kinsman who paid the price. But also, there were conditions that could be laid down in order to redeem it. Just as we do mortgages today. It isn’t always just paying the money. Sometimes there are other conditions that must be met. The deed for the property and the mortgage agreements were put on a scroll, rolled up and sealed with seals. On these seals they would put the conditions that had to be met to redeem the property. These things were kept at the temple for safekeeping. When a person (or his kinsman if he couldn’t) wanted to redeem it, he would present himself at the temple and pay the price. They would bring out the scroll and in the presence of witnesses he would start breaking the seals. As each seal was broken, the terms of that seal had to be met or enacted. Here is where it gets interesting. At the breaking of the last seal, the property reverts in legal ownership, but until the last seal’s conditions are finished being met, the owner cannot take possession. This is what we see in Revelation. The reason Christ is the only one who can break the seals and open the scroll, is because a perfect sacrifice was the price to get possession of the planet back. We could not do it, because we aren’t perfect, so we needed a kinsman to do it for us, hence Christ had to become a man and become our kinsman, and redeemer by sacrificing Himself. When he gets to the seventh seal, and goes to break it, it will be the last obstacle between Him and His taking back His kingdom on earth. This is the reason for the silence. It is a momentous occasion. The problem is, while He has ownership, He can’t take possession until that last or seventh seal’s conditions (the trumpets) have run their course. So God’s wrath does not begin at the sixth seal. When those things in the sixth seal take place, people will think it is God’s wrath because they will be scared out of their gourds, but it really won’t be. It will still be the conditions agreed upon for the fulfilling of the mortgage agreement. However, it is the last sign before Christ breaks that last seal which means He is now free to come back as He is now legal owner. Plus it is an unmistakable sign. That is why He gave it in Matthew, although He didn’t mention those trumpet judgments must occur before He returns. He kept that for John to share with us. He gave a brief overview to the disciples but kept the details for John. That is why when the sixth trumpet has finished, you see Christ standing with one foot planted on the sea and one foot planted on the land claiming his property back and taking possession. I believe the scroll that he holds at that point contains the wrath of God or vial judgments. They were not a part of the mortgage, so they require a new scroll. That is why the seventh or last trump is the one mentioned by Paul where the rapture occurs. It is just before God’s wrath is poured out. Rev. 11:15-18. It is also the third woe. The first is the fifth trumpet, the second is the sixth trumpet, and the third is the last trumpet which contains the vial judgments. Rev. 11:14-15 “The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded…”

    Israel is redeemed when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. Romans 11:25 “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.” So when is that? Luke 21:20-24 “And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” Here we are told that Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles starting at the abomination and will continue until the time of the Gentiles is fufilled. So again, when is that? Rev.11:1-2 “And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months” So now we know Jerusalem is trodden for forty-two months after the abomination of desolation. That brings us to the time of the last trump when Christ returns. So the time of the Gentiles is over at the end of the forty-two months when Christ will be returning. When this happens all Israel (those left) will be saved. This goes along with Zech. 12:9-10, 13:1-2 “And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. (Armegeddon) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn…..In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.” Rev. 1:7 “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”

    Just a thought. Nowhere does it say that the 144,000 are sealed to be ministers. It says they are sealed so that the demons of the fifth trumpet judgment cannot harm them. Rev. 9:4 “And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.” It is an assumption that they are ministers. They may be the group that are put in the wilderness to hide for 1260 days (Rev. 12). It is while they are in the wilderness that Christ brings them to Himself. Ez. 20:34-38,40 “And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD…For in mine holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, there shall all the house of Israel, [notice this says all the house, all 12 tribes including the lost ones which are in the Gentile nations and are the major part of the 144,000] all of them in the land, serve me: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the firstfruits of your oblations, with all your holy things.”

    Just my understanding of course. You are free to disagree.

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  74. Shorttribber. I think we can pretty much rule out the idea that their thought was that Christ’s crucifixion was the abomination, as they were not thinking in those terms at all. It came as a shock to them, even though Christ did sort of warn them it was going happen. I don’t think they really believed it would.

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  75. Connie,
    We’re much closer in agreement than you know…that post about the scroll is terrific, the best i heard about that idea.
    I’ve heard that idea before but not in such rich detail. Now having said that, I must confess that the continuity of how I understand the timing of the seals bowls and vials all the more powerfully re-inforced.
    If you do take the time to read certain sections of my shorttrib/prewrath thread very thouroughly you will find some stuff really worth running and shouting about.

    Just say’n 🙂

    SOMEBODY BETTER TIE…..ME…..DOWWWWN!!!!!!

    this portion of the post is moved from the shorttrib/prewrath thread.
    Post # 6…………………Try now if you will to imagine a scroll rolled up tightly in front of you on a table or desk, it is sealed from top to bottom with seven seals. It is evident the contents contained in it are “condensed”, rolled together tightly. Now try to imagine a seal pops open and you then are able to peek inside just a little bit, then anther seal pops and you can peek just a bit more, and one by one the seals pop until the scroll is able to open and lay flat on the table for your viewing.

    the above illustration is one of the reasons I see the seals as condensed and introductory in nature.

    What follows after them are more detailed and spread out for our seeing and understanding. Now I’ll move on to the trumpets.

    Let me begin by helping the reader to notice something I feel is vital to our understanding of the trumpets: have you ever noticed how the first SIX trumpets scarcely take up little more than one and a half chapters, but two chapters are dedicated to the SEVENTH trumpet? Shouldn’t this be our first clue the LAST trumpet is being assigned much, much greater significance than the other six?

    There is so much information contained in chapter ten alone that I find it inconceivable that anyone should contend against the idea that this IS the LAST TRUMP of which Paul prophesied in 1Chor 15: 51-52.

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  76. Quickly to answer this…..
    “Shorttribber. I think we can pretty much rule out the idea that their thought was that Christ’s crucifixion was the abomination, as they were not thinking in those terms at all. It came as a shock to them, even though Christ did sort of warn them it was going happen. I don’t think they really believed it would.”

    it was only a portion of the Abomination that CAUSED Desolation…..arguably though….the greatest of the CAUSES of the past, present or future desolations of Jerusalem.

    Remember, Jesus said “when YOU……..SEE….. the abomination that causes desolation”.
    and
    He said “when YOU….SEE….. Jerusalem compassed with armies”.

    Because they did not……SEE…..Christ’s crucifixion as THE PRIMARY CAUSE of the Desolation of Jerusalem (beCAUSE Daniel’s vision was sealed until the time of the end) does not mean or prove that it was not the …..PRIMARY…….Abomination that CAUSED Desolation.

    Now then…they DID ….. SEE……Jerusalem compassed with armies and many did flee for 3.5 years during the Desolation of Jerusalem from 66-70 AD.

    I believe this example of “not SEEing and SEEing” is one of the reasons for the variant wording of Matthew, Mark and Luke.

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  83. Shorttribber. Have you ever seen one of the ancient scrolls described in Revelation? You assumed, as have many and as I once did, that you pop a seal, unroll it and read a little, then pop another scroll. That is not how it worked. The ancient scrolls in the museums in Israel show how they were prepared. All seven seals are put on the outside, with the conditions written upon the seals. The contents inside the scroll would be the same as what was written on the seals, as once the seals were popped, the information would be lost, so they were also written on the inside, but the same things as written on the seals. There’s a history to how this all came about with scrolls being done this way, but I won’t go into that. All of the seals, all seven must be popped, in order, with each condition being met before the next one is opened. They all must be opened before the scroll can be opened. When the mortgage is opened, all the conditions must have been met. That means that the trumpets cannot happen until that last seal is popped. But still the scroll is just the mortgage. The 7th trumpet judgment (vials) is not a part of the conditions of the first scroll. They are God’s wrath, not conditions of the mortgage and therefore belong in the little scroll, not in the mortgage. Which is why John has to eat that before he can prophesy about the vial judgments. Again, that is why Christ claims His possession at the end of the sixth trumpet. The mortgage is now in His ownership. He has bought earth back, lock, stock, and barrel and is taking charge.

    I looked at your belief that the 70th week of Daniel began at the start of Christ’s ministry and was cut off at the mid-point when He died. My problem with this is found in Daniel 9:24-26 “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”

    In reading this passage, we are told there are seventy weeks or 490 years that God will deal with Israel to finally bring them to everlasting righteousness, and finish up everything having to do with this age. He then divides this into three sections. There is a seven week period, a sixty-two week period, and as we know, that leaves a one week or seven year period. I believe the reason for the first division is that it is in that first seven week period that the temple was built and finished. We know that from Christ when He told us how long it took them to build it. Then we are told that at the conclusion of the second set of weeks or when the sixty-two weeks ends, the Messiah will be killed. How can His ministry begin in the 70th week, when He is killed at the end of the sixty-second week (or more accurately the sixty-ninth)? I think this verse is quite clear on this issue, “after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (or killed).” After He is killed, after the sixty-second (or sixty-ninth) week it says the city and sanctuary will be destroyed. It doesn’t say how long that will be from the end of the sixty-second week, but we known historically that it was forty more years. Hence, the 70th week was not contiguous with the sixty-second week as that week has not been addressed yet. We are told after this destruction, there will be more desolations. I think the holocaust might qualify as a desolation for the Jews, don’t you? Then we are then told in verse 27 what follows all this, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.” There is no mention of how long this would be, but we know it has been over 2,000 years. One thing that has always perplexed me is that God is not always good with His antecedents. He who? If I go by English grammar rules, it would refer to the prince whose people destroy the temple, as that is the immediate noun before the pronoun. Some say though that it is God or Jesus. Regardless of who it is, (I am not getting into that issue here) the fact remains that it is at this time, the 70th week, sometime after Christ is killed at the end of the 62nd (69th)week that a covenant will be confirmed or strengthened for one week or seven years. (Just as a point of clarification, the 70th week is not the Tribulation. It is merely the last seven years promised to Israel in which God will deal with her. The Tribulation starts at the mid-point of that last week and continues for an unspecified amount of time until cut short.) That is what it says when one simply has a straightforward reading of it, and I believe God means what He says, so that is what I believe on this point. What I am saying here, if there is still any doubt, is that the Scriptures say that the 70th week does not begin until after Christ has died, so His death cannot possibly be the abomination spoken of in Matthew. Even if you think the crucifixion was only the beginning of the abomination, it still does not fit in the timeline as there is 3 1/2 years to go after Christ’s death before this abomination occurs. And truly the disciples only reference for this phrase was what Antiochus did. If that was their understanding, I think it should also be our reference point.

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  84. shortribber, thanks (always) for your helpful insights. i have a question posed (you can get my drift) on the post about egyptian tanks on israel’s border about the jubliee year (50 years) after 1967 and jerusalem. just wondering your thoughts if you happen to have time and thought to respond. there is quite a lot going on over on this post (love it!). it really helps when people work these things out loud (without the disagreeableness!) because the Scripture gets highlighted and clarity–my hope and of all of us-can come. this is why i come here–to learn from honest seekers for Truth coming straight from God”s Word. thanks to all. God bless!

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  86. I misspoke on my last comment. It should read that people think that you pop a seal, unroll the scroll then pop another seal, not another scroll. Just clarifying.

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  87. It’s truly a blessing from God that this post has been brought back up. I have been reading, listening, and studying World events, as they relate to bible prophecy lately – and just last night a few questions came to mind:

    1) Have we actually entered the 70th week?
    2) How does events such as the: (Arab Spring; Muslim Uprising; Syria situation; Economic disasters; Climate warming; Fish/Birds/Fowl dieing for no apparent cause….etc) that are occurring and have been occurring now for over a period of a few years, relate to the fact that we have a 7 year Covenant with Many active?
    3) Does the 70th week run concurrent with the initiation of the Covenant with Many – or are they two separate entities which overlap, or do they run consecutively?
    4) Is there really a “literal” 3rd Temple – or have we assumed that there will be – have we erroneously placed a third Temple in Scripture?
    5) Could the measuring of the “temple” in Revelation 11 mean something symbolic? (Or, again, are we placing something there by assumming that it must be rebuilt, when it could mean something that stood at some point; or a temple that currently stands?)
    6) In calculating the final week, what does Scripture truly mean: “unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved”? Does this shorten the number of days – or is the shortened time period referring to the Rapture of the Elect?
    7) Are there two End Time Players – or a Beast System, and the Antichrist?
    8) Will. Gog/Magog precede the 70th week?
    9) Is what is happening in Syria a prelude to Damascus being destroyed?
    10) Will the Mark of the Beast be a micro-chip, or a tattoo?

    In closing, at some point in this End Time mystery we have to ask ourselves the aforementioned questions. I know without a doubt that the Church will see the coming Antichrist – and they will be tried and tested through some portion of what is commonly called the Tribulation period – if not all of it. I also know that many will miss the signs, it will be just like in the days of Noah – it is now. Deception is rampart, and most are becoming so desensitized to this sinful world that things like GREED, homosexuality, self-importance, prosperity living, adultery, and a host of many other sins, that the very events that are being discussed here are virtually being gone unnoticed.

    May God help us all.

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  88. Hi again Connie,
    About the overlap of seals and trumpets….those being in and out are more reason to have them overlapped in a vision…..the illustration is perfect then.

    Christ wasn’t crucified on the last day/end day of the 69th week as you suppose.
    The key word is the word “AFTER”, after the 69th week…….the text does not say how long AFTER……but history does IMO.
    He was crucified 3.5 years AFTER the 69th week ended…………putting His death 3.5 years INTO the 70th.

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  89. Quoting Connie
    ” One thing that has always perplexed me is that God is not always good with His antecedents. He who?”

    Not so, God is the best at everything…that’s one of the ways He is able to layer prophecy with more than only one fulfillment.

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  90. i just love hearing from you mr. baldy! thanks for what you are expressing. i actually do believe we are experiencing tribulation that has not become the half way point (great tribulation) just yet but not far from us now. there is a 7 year agreement with israel (expires dec 2013 that would begin a “half way” if things wrap up by 2017-18 (think jewish calendar and their feasts) the 70 year mark-“that generation (david said 70 or by reason of strength 80 years) will see” from matt 24-25-(the land )and the jubilee calender counting of 50 from jerusalem (temple mount) in jewish hands as of 1967) still in play while all these other events are manifesting more and more of the scripture that we can see. the actual temple may not get it’s opportunity to be built at this time (Jesus said don’t swear by the temple) but even it’s plans are enough to bring on the hatred of those determined to rid the world of the jews and their temple on the mount God Himself gave them (and Gave Himself on!) that is still under “political dispute” to bring out the forces against God that the Scriptures foretell. meanwhile the Gospel is being lived out in true believers who live in the world but not of it. i read Jesus’ prayer of john 17 this a.m. and i can tell you that it is precious to know that His Oneness with the Father and the Oneness of His Body makes my heart sing as i know He is bringing that unity about—in spite of the forces to tear it apart or by fakery as the counterfeit church thinks it is up to them to unify–the arm of flesh fails every time! it is the Work of His Holy Spirit! it is seen in people who trust His word as their daily Bread (matt 4:4) and live it out to know Him and the fellowship of His sufferings being conformable unto His death (phil 3:10). we all know not one of us has it all down in the prophectic or in day to day living–but what a wonderful “come together” in edification as His saints explore our Father’s Word to do and to be His reflection in this dark world to shine our precious Lord Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord—and soon coming King. (i love all of you and pray that we will live by his Grace and stay blameless till He comes).

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  91. Ahh Mr B what a blessing and praise God that the spirit bear witness to the questions posed which resonate with the indwelling Holy Spirit- how great it is to enter into that rest.

    It was these questions the Holy Spirit nudged us to ask “self ” back in 2010 when we came to that ” aha” moment..prompted only by the Holy Spirit and NOT by man. I love that:) If you can recall that personal mail I FWD to you between Vic and myself way back then 🙂

    It never ceases to amaze me how the Lord leads us to His truth. Oh how i love that 🙂

    I personally can’t believe how ” deception” has taken on a more “intense” evil level as of late and can only go on the precious indwelling Holy Spirit to guide me as the days grow darker. Who is able to stand?

    Christ said He KNOWS His own and that assures my heart before Him.

    I love you guys and praise God for each of you.

    Carry on,,,,

    2Ti 2:19 — Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

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  92. Ohh I love Pastor Brian’s latest comment 🙂

    ” God is not the author of fear. We are called to be courageous and an inspiration to a fallen world. We are not just who we are, but an extension of His Will as His Spirit dwells in us making us His holy temple. For that truth to be enriched in us, we must behave as holiness drives us. As holiness drapes our very being, our eyes begin to open to His wonderful Will as the fear of God gives us wisdom. That wisdom exposes the hypocrisy in our world. That hypocrisy starts with the United States. ”

    Powerful first paragraph and was blessed beyond measure.

    We are HIS temple.

    God gives us wisdom.

    No FEAR in perfect love.

    God is exposing the hypocrisy.

    I love that 🙂

    For those new here 🙂

    http://pastorbrianroberts.com/

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  93. conjunction junction, whats that function? I like that,”carry on” phrase my sister HisOwn. It reminds me of the crosby,stills nash n young song /” Carry on, love is calling to us all”…….you know c.s. lewis said,” make no mistake about it, God IS Love, but love is not God”. tell me why???????anyone seen the obama link yet at, http://www.lookupfellowship.com

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  94. amen Hisown. he nailed it. and you sister… are such a wonderful encourager……..my how we need encouraging voices in these days.

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  95. I have to agree with Connies reading of the seven seals – that’s my understanding as well of the ancient practice of king’s sealing important documents, like the deed to a piece of land or a kingdom.

    Also agreed on the 70 weeks I don’t see how the midpoint could be the crucifixion when the at the end of the 69th week the anointed one is cut off, having nothing.

    I think you are missing an important point about the end point of the 70 weeks though – in the first verse it says in v24 “to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity” – both things that Christ did on the cross, but Israel does not receive until the period of it’s hardness of heart is ended. I am not certain I’m right – but at the same time it seems to be as reasonable way to read that passage as any others I’ve seen and doesn’t take the large leaps of symbolism/logic that some do.

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  97. hi tony. i got a chance to see what you sent us the link for. as to being the “covenant” with many-that is already in place that solana was part of-i don’t think that is it. it is said to be “strengthening” but i think it will just end up just being a signed piece of paper with nothing to back it up especially it being signed by this president who has no use for israel-period. in the shadowy world of politics much is mere form and no substance. but that date is no less very interesting and maybe it has more significance than i know. staying tuned like you are tony-that i do know to do….

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  98. to quote Justasheep
    “Also agreed on the 70 weeks I don’t see how the midpoint could be the crucifixion when the at the end of the 69th week the anointed one is cut off, having nothing.”

    and Connie again
    “Then we are told that at the conclusion of the second set of weeks or when the sixty-two weeks ends, the Messiah will be killed. How can His ministry begin in the 70th week, when He is killed at the end of the sixty-second week (or more accurately the sixty-ninth)?”

    and my answer agin from above
    “Christ wasn’t crucified on the last day/end day of the 69th week as you suppose.
    The key word is the word “AFTER”, after the 69th week…….the text does not say how long AFTER……but history does IMO.
    He was crucified 3.5 years AFTER the 69th week ended…………putting His death 3.5 years INTO the 70th.”

    There are three options that answer to this… “62 and 7 weeks/69weeks Until Messiah the Prince”
    1. Birth of Christ
    2. Baptism of Christ
    3. Entry into Jerusalem on the donkey

    Then the text says…..AFTER the 69th week messiah will be cut off.
    1. Jesus was not born and then cut off the same day
    2. Jesus was not baptised and cut off the same day
    3. Jesus did not Enter Jerusalem and cut off the same day

    the key then is the time that transpired AFTER the last day of the 69th week.

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  99. Hello Andre’, it seems to me to have some kind of prophetic signifigance.Obama giving Israel a [no doubt] FALSE SENSE of security. Look at what you have said Andre’. “it is said to be “strengthening” but i think it will just end up being a signed peice of paper w/ nothing to back it up esp. it being signed by this [lying, deceiving,speak w/ a forked tongue]president who HAS NO USE FOR ISRAEL-period.” I am not saying that obama is the ac, but i do declare, this has anti-christ spirit written all over it! Obama and Solana are brothers in anti-christ.

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  101. i reckon i added a couple words there Andre’, to your quote,..whoops, sorry,..but i put them in the parenthesis making it pretty obvious,…..and did so to drive the whole idea home as you probably figured. i dont see this as small but as BIG. you see, Satan is moving,…slythering

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  102. tony it is most assuredly done in the spirit of anti-christ just as you are noting. thanks for bringing it to my attention brother.

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  103. Obama is a mysterious man, as if here from another planet. sooo much could be said on this, and it has been said. He seems to be one of the main actors and the actors are all in place. Soon the gogs of magog will be swarming around, and the pied piper will lead his children underground. Dragons will be coming out of the sea, and all hell will break loose as the anti-christs reign of terror envelopes the earth. We cultivate our faith. we exercise it, we carry it with us moment by moment with newness of life day after day,…..and in that time of trouble, our faith will carry us; so be it with all those who are in Christ Jesus! Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil, Lord, for the Kingdon, the Power and the Glory are yours, now and forever, amen. bless you Andre’ and thank you for the feedback as we all stick with Jesus.

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  104. i havn’t completely given up on what is known as the pre-trib rapture theory although i moved into the pre-wrath camp after speaking w/ Herb Peters yrs. ago in connection w/ van kampen and rosenthal’s works on the highly debatable subject matter. I’m hoping for the best[so to speak] and expecting the worse as i prepare myself, faithfully depending on God the Father, thru Christ, for all!,… and building a Trustful relationship w/ Jesus. It works for me in my life and i’ve learned to love the Lord deeply. i don’t fear the hour of trial n testing that will come upon the whole world, because of Jesus and His Word of TRUTH. I’ve learned that even when things go wrong, they go right. We must be fearless, counting on help from above, trusting the power of Gods love. For lo, i am with you always, even to the end of the age! blessings

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  105. Christ offers us Freedom that is so close to being beyond belief, that most people don’t believe it. i cry out to my Lord in prayer for all of those who struggle with this. We have intercessory prayer! What a thing,..to Believe! Lord we lift them up to you for salvation,…Lord have mercy, bring them forth. Lord, you brought Lazarus forth. We pray, believing and we give thanks

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  106. One day all things will become new! …catapillars give rise, to butterflys! metamorphesis, translation! glorified bodies,…change, in the twinklin’ of an eye, we will be changed! Imagine

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  107. shorttribber, I understand why you’re saying “after” the 62nd (69th) week, but I think that God is saying that Christ’s crucifixion week puts an end to that 7 year period, or finishes up those two periods of 7 sevens and 62 sevens. In other words, Christ’s crucifixion doesn’t come at the beginning or middle of the 69th week, it comes right after those two time periods have been fulfilled. It delineates a clear dividing line between the 69 weeks and the 70th week. If Christ were in the middle of the next week, would he not have put verse 27 immediately after this verse to make that extremely clear? And even then I would still, from the wording put Christ’s death at the end or after the 69th week. Instead He interrupts the flow from the 69th week into the 70th by putting the destruction of the temple in between the two. Then He tells us that a covenant will be confirmed for one week. It would seem that he deliberately wants to make it very apparent to all that at the minimum at least 40 years goes by between the 69th week and the 70th.

    Why are you forcing half of the 70th week into a verse where God doesn’t put it? You are the one who told me that God is best at everything. Well, a clear straightforward literal reading of this passage does not put Christ’s death in the middle of the 70th week. It puts it at the conclusion of the 69th, before (long before) the 70th commences. If you see Christ as the one who confirms the covenant (and this would mean that the covenant is the one God made with Israel which includes the 490 week period), here is the problem you give yourself. This is an exercise in logic. God’s covenant with Israel was broken when Christ died on the cross. Correct? He stopped dealing with them at that point and divorced them when He rent the veil in two. Right? He created a new covenant at that point which was given to the Gentiles. Right? So if the covenant with Israel was broken at the cross, and it is confirmed again with them for another seven years according to Scripture (because it couldn’t be confirmed 3 1/2 years before it was broken, could it) then you are forced to accept another seven year period. God would confirm the covenant He made to give them 490 years, and by mathematical calculations, that means that if it was broken at then end of 483 years it still has seven to go which is exactly what God says. He says the covenant has to be re-instituted or confirmed again for another seven years after it has lapsed. Now, if you prefer to say that the one who confirms a different kind of covenant is AC, then you still have to accept another seven year period. Either way you are stuck with a seven year period on your hands.

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  108. Hi Shorty,

    Not to bombard you with questions…but could you please show us where Scripture points to where Christs’ Ministry went 3.5 years into the 70th week, as you have indicated?

    Thanks in advance,

    Baldy

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  109. Hi Connie…here ya go….one at a time…
    you said
    “God’s covenant with Israel was broken when Christ died on the cross. Correct?”
    answer
    No, very much incorrect…..Christ came to fulfill, not destroy or break the law…..He CONFIRMED it…..He did not break it.
    you said
    “He stopped dealing with them at that point and divorced them when He rent the veil in two. Right?”
    answer
    No, He broke down the wall and partition that kept them from Him by giving (gracing) them with a new and BETTER way…the New Covenant.
    you said
    “He created a new covenant at that point which was given to the Gentiles. Right?”
    answer
    Half right, the New Covenant was first to the Jews and ….then to the Gentiles.
    you said
    ” So if the covenant with Israel was broken at the cross, and it is confirmed again with them for another seven years according to Scripture (because it couldn’t be confirmed 3 1/2 years before it was broken, could it) then you are forced to accept another seven year period”
    answer
    This statement is confusing but really a moot point since, as i said, Christ did not break any Covenant at the Cross.

    I’ve answered these things first and I’ll answer your question about the continuity and construction of closing verse of Daniel and why they were arranged as they were next 🙂
    I think you’re gonna like this 🙂

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  110. Hi Mr. B
    to answer this…
    “Not to bombard you with questions…but could you please show us where Scripture points to where Christs’ Ministry went 3.5 years into the 70th week, as you have indicated?”

    I’ll post a couple links a little latter….I think you’ll be very interested in them 🙂

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  111. Ok Connie….here ya go
    the link below is how i will answer the following question..
    “Why are you forcing half of the 70th week into a verse where God doesn’t put it? You are the one who told me that God is best at everything. Well, a clear straightforward literal reading of this passage does not put Christ’s death in the middle of the 70th week. It puts it at the conclusion of the 69th, before (long before) the 70th commences”

    http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=56734

    enjoy 🙂

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  112. Ok Mr B….here’s a couple links……they do not prove, but are clear evidences of a 3.5 year ministry of Christ that MUST have occurred AFTER the LAST DAY of the 69th week.

    http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=60748

    this next link is an attempt to discuss the division of the last seven…before the thread was quickly sidetracked…..i would love to pick up on it again and discuss it…would be very interesting i think.

    http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=60676

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  113. Connie…you said
    ” but I think that God is saying that Christ’s crucifixion week puts an end to that 7 year period, or finishes up those two periods of 7 sevens and 62 sevens.”

    but again…it’s just not possible….here’s why again

    There are three options that answer to this… “62 and 7 weeks/69weeks Until Messiah the Prince”
    1. Birth of Christ
    2. Baptism of Christ
    3. Entry into Jerusalem on the donkey

    Then the text says…..AFTER the 69th week messiah will be cut off.
    1. Jesus was not born and then cut off the same day
    2. Jesus was not baptised and cut off the same day
    3. Jesus did not Enter Jerusalem and cut off the same day

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  114. Here’s a question primarily for Connie and Mr B. but also for anyone who cares to answer.

    First read this….
    Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    How can any of these things be PROVIDED for……..IF…….Christ death on the cross occurs OUTSIDE of Daniels 70 weeks proper? You know, in nondescript time-space BETWEEN the 69th and the 70th week.

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  115. Seventy weeks, 490 years was the length of time given to do all those things. And in fact, Israel does not come to believe in her Messiah until He returns at the very end of the 70th week which is when the end to their transgressions, etc, on that list comes. Again, it happens at the very end of the time period, just as Christ’s death occurred at the very end of the 69thweek. Seventy weeks in full were determined upon Israel. His death came right at the end of the 69th week when it was finished so that they could have the entire 69 sevens they were allotted. Had he died before that, they would not have been allotted the full time, because when Christ died, the covenant with them was broken. If God has said they had 62 1/2 weeks before the Messiah was killed and the covenant was broken, then you would be right. But it doesn’t say that. The covenant cannot be renewed for another seven if that were the case, it would be renewed for 1/2 a week, right? Christ had to die at the end of the 69th week just as it was finishing. I’m not sure why you can’t see the logic in this. His death was the period on the week. It didn’t happen four months or four years after. His death was the very split second end of that week, after the seven years were over. When He died, the covenant was broken. Can you understand what I am saying? The covenant cannot be renewed before it is broken can it? How could it be renewed and confirmed 3 1/2 years before it is broken. That doesn’t even make sense.

    If I were to say, I’m going to send my child to college for four years, then AFTER that he will graduate, then later on ( when I have the money) I will send him for another year (well a master’s takes more than a year but you get my point) to get his master’s, how do you understand that? Am I sending him to school for another half a year for his master’s and then he will graduate with his bachelors? Of course not. The graduation ceremony is not really a part of the four years, as the four years were the classes and studying. The studying is now finished. School is over, classes have ended, the other kids have gone home. The four years of work are over. It is the ending ceremony to the four years. It is not really a part of the classes and studying, yet it is really still a part of it, isn’t it? It is the period on the four years of work. It is the culmination of that time. This is exactly how God describes it. My son didn’t graduate before the four years were over did he? He graduated after the four years were over, but he didn’t graduate halfway through the first year of his master’s classes. You ask how can these things be provided for if they are not within the week. Did my son get a diploma? Is it valid? (yes he did by the way, forensic anthropology, honors grad, and got one of the university’s highest honors to boot- proud mama here) See my point? Christ’s death did not have to be within anything to be valid. His death did the job no matter when it happened. Are you under the impression that His death is inadequate in any way if it doesn’t fall within your parameters?

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  116. I apparently missed some of these postings, maybe I was writing while they were being posted and didn’t notice them pop up. I now see that you cannot see my logic shorttribber, so I won’t belabor the point anymore. Done here.

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  117. Connie,
    Is it a natural read for the text say …….it will be 69 weeks until Messiah the Prince dies, and after the 69 weeks Messiah will die?

    Because that is how you basically understand what the text says instead of the natural sense of it reading ……..it will be 69 weeks until Messiah the Prince COMES and after the 69th week He will DIE.

    One is more natural than the other……I choose the second one.

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  118. That’s pretty sad that when people don’t see it your way Connie….you leave? I’m sorry.

    Moving along,,,,

    Okay Mr Shorty let me see if I understand this.

    The “cutting off” then occurred after the 62 weeks ( proposing it took place in the last “prophetic week,” Passover 30 CE ? ) Please correct me if I am misunderstanding ?

    Just reflecting in these verses this morning.

    1Cr 11:25 — After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

    Hbr 10:12 — But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    Hbr 10:16 — This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

    Hbr 10:18 — Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

    I like to keep things simple 🙂 Re : the AOD

    So when Jesus speaks of the ” abomination of desolation ” ( he who reads let him understand) this was the destruction by the Roman armies yet there seems to be a ” dual” prophecy in Luke 21: 20 and Mark 13.

    The Lord confirmed these two scriptures in 2010 which convinced me of ANOTHER army in the future ( maybe ) before the LAST 3 and a hlf yrs of the 70th week?

    The one of : Zec 14: 1 ?

    I am fascinated by the study and love how the Lord is the One that is teaching here 🙂

    Thank-you for your time guys, how precious is that !

    Carry on,,,( that’s fer ya Tony ) lol 🙂

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  119. Yes,

    “So when Jesus speaks of the ” abomination of desolation ” ( he who reads let him understand) this was the destruction by the Roman armies yet there seems to be a ” dual” prophecy in Luke 21: 20 and Mark 13.

    The Lord confirmed these two scriptures in 2010 which convinced me of ANOTHER army in the future ( maybe ) before the LAST 3 and a hlf yrs of the 70th week?”

    Correct 🙂

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  120. I said I was done discussing the subject. I don’t believe in beating a dead horse when it is obvious that we are just wrangling. Especially when we are told not to. if you think that is throwing a tantrum, grabbing my ball and going home, then so be it.

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  121. I didn’t see you say you were leaving either Connie and if you did that would be your business. We gonna let God be the Judge

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  123. Hi Hisown,

    you said

    “The “cutting off” then occurred after the 62 weeks ( proposing it took place in the last “prophetic week,” Passover 30 CE ?”

    Yes, as far as the after the 62 weeks (7+62=69). I’m not certain about the 30 CE…so many calendars vary it seems.

    The point is, as I asked of anyone above, how can anyone after really pondering the matter well possibly imagine ANY PROVISION being made to end sin during an undefined period between the 69th and the 70th week?
    The WORK, PROVISION of Christ would, of necessity, occur WITHIN the 70 weeks proper only.

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  125. i’m looking at short-tribbers post on fulfilled prophecy, that he linked us to, again, just recently………listen, hear/ look, see…………take it in! its indeed POWERFULTRUTH and empowering to your inner man and your inner woman! i love that word woman!, sincerely in Christ. thank God for women!, blessings

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  126. Vic Wickus…or Rob,

    Can you please start another thread relating to the 70th week? It appears as if both Shorty, Connie, and others have some very valid points concerning this issue. It has somewhat gotten “Off Topic” concerning: “Who is end time Babylon?”

    Pretty please…with sugar on it?

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  129. Back on topic on Babylon, (different topic, so I’ll discuss it) it might be a piece of interesting information for you to digest that 1) if not all, then practically all of the world’s political leaders, financiers, CEO’s and many religious leaders. are Masons. 2) the “Mother of the Councils of the World” Scottish Rite Freemasonry Masonic Temple resides in Washington D.C. 3) only 32 and 33 degree Masons can be members of this lodge 4) a Mason’s first allegiance is to the Masonic order and his brothers before any other loyalty, including his country, his business, or his church. Just food for thought.

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  130. Mr B, your wish is my command Brother. 🙂 I have re-posted one of my older posts on the 70th week and the covenant with many. So lets consider this thread closed and leave your comments on the new posts.

    Connie, I did not welcome you yet, but a hearty welcome from me. Thanks for enriching us with your wisdom. God bless you.

    Mr Short, no harm done my friend.

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  131. For so many of you who do not see, New York/America is Babylon.
    1) Look at the very first point that is made at the top of this article. Babylon has a deep waterport.
    2) God’s people are there, they have been led astray by false idols, They are rich in luxury….
    3) The world will cry for her because she purchased from them, making them rich. WHO will buy from them now. No other country purchases and buys from other countries like New York/America. No other country has made other countries rich. We buy from more countries than any other country in the world.
    4) well, if the above isn’t enough facts from the Bible for you, here is more facts: http://www.awakeawareandpartofthesolution.com/blog/2012/09/05/The-Idols-Of-America-The-Statue-of-Liberty.aspx

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  132. comment is awaiting moderation.

    For so many of you who do not see, New York/America is Babylon.
    1) Look at the very first point that is made at the top of this article. Babylon has a deep waterport.
    2) God’s people are there, they have been led astray by false idols, They are rich in luxury….
    3) The world will cry for her because she purchased from them, making them rich. WHO will buy from them now. No other country purchases and buys from other countries like New York/America. No other country has made other countries rich. We buy from more countries than any other country in the world.
    4) well, if the above isn’t enough facts from the Bible for you, here is more facts: http://www.awakeawareandpartofthesolution.com/blog/2012/09/05/The-Idols-Of-America-The-Statue-of-Liberty.aspx

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  133. You know every once in awhile i try to go into websites and read peoples ideas and all that ever comes of it is arguing and then i get so confused…and then an inevitable headache ensues. Then i remember the scriptures that speak about no one not even jesus will know the time of the end. and that it will come as a thief in the night. if all scripture is from God then why do we continually drive ourselves crazy wondering when he will get here? we are so like children and that is why God cannot reveal all of the mysteries to us. we cannot comprehend him. i believe that those of us…and i mean myself.. who cannot comprehend and or understand much in the Bible will need a helping hand because none of you have all the answers and all you do is lead us sheep astray. be careful not to set yourself up as a preacher with all the answers. God deals with them very harshly as many of you seem to have forgotten.

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  134. Lori you are so welcome here please do stay a while.Blessing’s to you.

    None of us here claim to be a ” preacher” but do have a passion and desire to search the scriptures and to dig into the Word of God being led by the personal direction of the Holy Spirit.

    Remember it is HE that does the teaching and it your personal responsibility to seek the Lord in prayer and supplication in His word.

    He leads His sheep by that still small sweet voice. He has promised that His sheep KNOW His voice and are KNOWN by Him.

    1Jo 2:27 — But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    I love that 😉

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  135. Lori,…….we are so like children. yep, i agree, and its part of that creature / CREATOR distinction. ,………..and yes, we are down here going coo-coo for co-co puffs!, with so much excitement that we are ready to jump right out of our skin! Let us breath deep and love one another, care fully. Like George Harrison said , in the song that HE wrote, on the Yellow Submarime album,”ITS ALL TOO MUCH”!,….referring mostly to the Love that shines all around us. But you and i also know that he was also referring to; the mystery of it all! ///////\\\\\\\…as for me, I am feeling stronger, IN THE LORD, everyday! i pray this to be true for you as well. accept it, n be blessed with it and by it. For IT is HERE and IT is NOW! Gods Spirit of TRUTH dwells amoung us!!! smile on your brother!

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  138. verie erie!,…this is wierd., and all i’ve done is take a quick look / glean. i’m going back to read it thru. thanks and holy smokes,…..did rome do this as a decoy / smokescreen? or,…..i mean just how sly is ole satan

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  139. I don’t think New York city is Mystery Babylon from Revelations. The destruction of the trading center’s twin towers has already taken place. Should it happen again, what difference will it make from the last attack? Revelation talks about a city that is guilty with the blood of the saints. Also, there are no slaves being sold in NY. It is still too early to tell what city this could be. My theory is that spirit of Babylon will rest within that city. Just like Saddam Hussein considered himself to be the reincarnation of Nebuchadnezzar. It could be that the spirit of Babylon will rest with the middle east? Like Dubai, the United Arab Emirates, OPEC (a consortium of 13 countries).

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  140. That’s a good point – it would seem that the mystery Babylon spoken of in the text falls after the rise of the 2 Beasts. At the rate the United States is declining I don’t see that New York will last much longer as the center of world financial, trade and cultural influence that it is today. There have been many spiritual “Babylons” over the centuries since this was written that many of the same scriptures could apply to, Rome, Constantinople, Vienna, Paris, London, Berlin, with the latest being New York. Perhaps this current Babylon collapses with the United States – paving the way for the final consummation of the most corrupt and debauched of all monuments to human depravity in a place like Dubai or some city yet to rise in the region.

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  141. youtube video,…by armageddon news, called…Babylon the Great & The Turkish Antichrist, i found it to be scripturally in tact,……..Mecca! Take a look, see what ya think. AMAZING! its 50 min long and unbelievably believable! It gets it.

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  142. Was this clip approved by Mr Sheep ? just asking.

    Tony we don’t adhere to the Islam AC theory if that’s what is being suggested. I don’t have the time or the inclination to watch it as we have discussed this ad nauseam over at FP 🙂

    Too many distractions lately.Our main focus should be Phl 3:8-16.

    It may be best to read those verses in a bible….one that has pages 😉

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  143. What clip? I’ve heard an argument for an “eastern roman” antichrist out of turkey but I don’t find it to be very compelling. Also Colleen makes the best point – the focus should be first on Christ and Christ’s return, we must take care not to get to caught up in all these other things.

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  144. “Tony we don’t adhere to the Islam AC theory if that’s what is being suggested”

    Some of us do give that possibility serious consideration. seems there’s more good reason to expect an antichrist out of Islam than any other nation/people to me.
    This particular thread is about “who is Babylon”. That is what Tony is talking about….and What the Clip is about.
    I’ve watched only half the video, just due to time restrictions, and it does make some good points to ponder.

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  145. Just finished the Video….very sound. Much more sound than the European Union idea that really lacks much Biblical Evidence at all, and is nothing more than Strict Dispensational Speculation.

    And really like how the Ending Points Every Person to Christ Alone who Saves us.

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  146. Sorry, no clip Rob but a suggestion to watch a youtube clip on the “Babylon the Great & The Turkish Antichrist”.

    Shortribber, just to clarify I don’t adhere to the typical ” Dispensational ” speculation as you very well know{ either } or the ” traditional ” view that there has to e a third built temple either distraction 😉 if I’m in error about the Islam AC view then I suppose the Lord will have to gonk me over the head to show me that. That’s the only way I learn 😉

    Satan’s expulsion { the final one where he no longer has access to the throne of God } is so close one can almost feel it and I wonder when this start of the last three and a hlf yrs of the 70th week unfolds how many are spiritually prepared for it. My only focus right now is getting my own house in order. Praying, watching and enduring.I pray that it’s the focus of all of us here as well.

    Watch ye therefore, and pray always,……. that ye may be accounted worthy………. to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.- Luk 21:36

    2Th 1:4
    So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your ……………>>>>>>>>persecutions and tribulations that …………..>>>>>>ye endure:

    2Th 1:5
    Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, ……….>>>>>that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

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  147. the Gonk on the Head is coming for All of us I think……we need to prepare for some very unexpected things.

    The Lord is Faithful to ensure that all who know and truly Love Him will Endure the Confusion…..and Prevail / Be Confirmed Until the End.

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  148. I’ve been gonked { emptied of self and all man made teachings } since being born again and I love it and would be seriously concerned if the Lord didn’t continue. He has promised in His Word that He would lead and guide us to ALL truth and if we are other wise minded , He will take care of that as well.
    I believe Him 🙂

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  151. that is funny as heck,…cracked me rite up! thanks Rick,…its dog gone unanimous! ruff times ahead. Hope Ingela gets this warning message too!

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