The Ten horns as the Ten Nations of the WEU–A review (Again)

The Ten horns as the Ten Nations of the WEU–A review

January 10, 2011
by Wickus

Comment By Adamantine:

(double click on each slide to enlarge)

The existence of a ten nation grouping in Europe which would be the ultimate base for the rise of the AC appeared first as though the ten members of the common market might fulfill such a scenario back in 1980. Instead the number of members of the common market quickly grew beyond the ten and prophecy watchers were dismayed.

Next we have the rise of the ten nation WEU as a military core which arose in 1995 and we are watching to see if that might provide the base for the rise of the AC.

These slides are a review of that history.

The Biblical basis for the ten kings and the same ten rulers as the ten horns derives from the book of Revelation and the Book of Daniel.

The ten horns are also the ten kings which are also represented by the ten toes in the Statue in the dream recorded by Daniel in the book of Daniel.

The AC would arise as a leader of these ten kings,horns, toes and somehow have worldwide influence.

The Bible is very clear that the leader of the ten horns,kings , toes must arise after the ten are in place.

Many have not attended to this fact that the ten must exist before the rise of the little horn that arises after them.

There does exist a separate but intensely linked ten nation core of Europe known as the Western European Union which in many ways was the precursor to the European Union itself. Here in 2009 one of the leaders of the European Union speaking to the Western European Union states that very fact.

This slide from Wikipedia shows that the Western European Union was founded in 1948 before the founding of the European Union and it was linked to the EU in 1999.

The Western European Union grew until it was ten nations in 1995. It is a mutual defense treaty which requires each nation to come to the defense of the others in situations of war.

It was Javier Solana among others who desired to see the Western European Union become the core of the EU for military affairs.

This article was written in 1995 prior to the inclusion of the WEU into the EU in 1999.

The Western European Union has associate members as well but only the ten core members vote and pay dues and are beholden to the military treaty of assistance in war. The red nations are the ten nations. These ten nations all are members of the EU and reside in territories that at different times in the history of the Roman Empire were part of the empire.

Javier Solana was chosen in 1999 to become the first leader of the ten nation WEU after it had become ten members.It could be said that he arose after the ten were in place.

In January 2002 as recorded by Javier Solana it was determined that the WEU would remain at ten members.

During the ten years that Javier Solana was serving as Secretary general of the WEU he also served as Secretary general of the EU and its High Representative representing Europe to the world. he became head of the European Defense Institute and brought the Galileo Space program under the control of the EU military. During this time the crisis management powers of the WEU (War Powers essentially) were brought into the EU by recommendation 666 of the WEU. The Lisbon Treaty put together in June 2007 was celebrated at the Bastille day parade of 2007 with all of the militaries of the EU marching together for the  first time. At this time it became a reasonable theory to ponder about a ten nation core group of nations residing at the center of EU power. Could it be biblical prophecy in fulfillment? Javier Solana was also a suspicious character because he was not only the military chief of Europe but its prime diplomat and peacemaker. He was involved in peace negotiations with Israel from the earliest days of the EU and he actually was central to the signing of a seven year Instrument between Israel and the EU and 800 million other people and 40 plus nations which strengthened an earlier agreement of 1995. This seven year instrument runs from January 1, 2007 until December 31, 2013. Events looked very suspicious. Then all quickly began to change. In Jul 2009 Javier Solana “retired” form his positions in the EU and WEU Interestingly his leadership of the WEU was never finalized an it has only an “acting Secretary General”

In a surprise announcement in March of 2010 the WEU was planned to be dissolved by July 2011. Its powers were subsumed by the EU under the Lisbon Treaty which came into effect December 1, 2009. There is some movement to salvage some functions in the general assembly of the WEU to provide oversight of EU military affairs by a parliamentary assembly

At nearly the same time some fringe militia members in Michigan who had become aware of the theory were linked to it because of accusations that they planned illegal attacks upon the government which they felt might become part of a new world order. They identified Javier Solana as a possible AC figure. This helped disparage the theory in general as no one likes to be linked to extremists and possible violence.

Events of the last year have proven Javier Solana is far from retired. Nevertheless under current hypothesis he would need to become the leader of the ten nations of the WEU again before its dissolution in July 2011. It would take an apparent crisis to bring such an unexpected political event to pass.

Hence we watch to see if Javier Solana might again be brought back to power over the WEU prior to its dissolution in July 2011.

If nothing happens then we might be similar to those of 1980 who thought that the ten nations of the common market might represent the ten nations of the Prophecy theory back in their day.

Should the theory fail because events simply prove it to be incorrect we should know within 7 months. Those who may disparage the theory before or even after wards will be incorrect to do so. The WEU for a time period in the history of the world was central to the developing defense and military structures of the Western powers. This slide is a NATO slide from a NATO website a number of years back and it shows that at least for awhile military analysts saw the WEU as central to the powers of the west. During its more than 60 years of existence it has remained mostly hidden to the casual observer of current events. Nevertheless for a time it will have been at the very center of world politics.

For a time for those who were willing to take time to look it will have been at the very center of end time Biblical suppositions about the end of the age. We are watching now with less than a year to see if there is any future for it according to world politics and Biblical prophecy. Will it turn out that the WEU  has existed with its primary purpose to provide the power base for the rise of a leader who will use it as a springboard to control the EU and then extend his power worldwide?

I do not know. I have presented this summary   to provide a review so that the theory may be rejected if the WEU is dissolved in July. It will also provide a summary for thought should the WEU not be dissolved.

passerby permalink
January 10, 2011 11:34 pm

Adamantine, your article begs the question ” why was Mr. Herb Peters, apparently, the first person to bring the Western European Union (WEU) to the forefront, as regards Bible prophecy watchers.” It seems it should have been watched (instead of the EU Comon Market, etc.), from day 1 in 1948 when it was formed as the Brussels Treaty Powers (five members at the time). It sure seems like some watchmen were asleep at the wheel, as it were. Fwiw.

I have re-posted this because of the passage of time and a few may benefit from a review if they are new to this site. I added Passerby’s comment also because it is quite pertinent.

Addendum added August 2011,

I  am now willing to consider that despite the now apparent dissolution of the WEU the fact that the WEU transferred its powers to the EU prior to its dissolution may be enough to fulfill prophecy. It is also true that this makes me and others appear to be among those who will do anything to keep a theory alive.  Possible but I will now steal myself to be sure that I cease commentary if there is no stopping of sacrifice by Dec 31,2013. If there remains a way forward by then I would hope God has someone wiser than me to comment.

 

 

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20 thoughts on “The Ten horns as the Ten Nations of the WEU–A review (Again)

  1. Excerpt from Mr. Hal Lindsey’s (written) report, dated 8-5-11, regarding the 10-nation Western European Union (WEU).

    * * *

    “Likewise, the European Union, though currently gripped in the throes of economic upheaval, is still moving forward to solidify its role in the final days of this Age. In fact, on July 1, 2011, a major milestone was quietly passed in the evolution of that body.

    Remember Daniel’s interpretation of King Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of an image constructed of various metals? Remember his description of the final kingdom consisting of “ten kings?” Remember hearing that this could not be the EU because it has 27 members? Well, on July 1, the EU formally invested certain critical powers always reserved to the core group known as the “Western European Union,” in a new ‘Permanent Council.’ By its own choice and in its own official documents, that group is hereinafter to be known as “The Ten.”

    Eerily familiar, isn’t it?”

    * * *

    http://www.hallindsey.com/the-hal-lindsey-report-852011/

    (WEU, aka the Modified Brussels Treaty Powers.)

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  2. This is an incredible find passerby.

    I find it amazing, and very ironic that brother Lindsey would mention the “The Ten” – and not the complete evidence which surrounds why it may be something to watch. I know for certain that he has previous knowledge of the surrounding facts that support the ENP(I) theory, and even the existence of Javier Solana, And also the fact that he was appointed the position as very first High Representative right after “The Ten” were established. I know this because he did a show concerning this matter – but even on his show, he failed to mention the “possibilities” of this all coming together, and being a fulfillment of Bible Prophecy.

    As I read his excerpt from the link that you provided, it appears as if he is more interested in boasting about some of his predictions that he made during the time that he wrote “The Late Great Planet Earth”; and proving his critics wrong, than he is getting the truth out. This bothers me.

    Come on Brother Lindsey! We in the Christian World need you help. We need to get the Truth out, and some of the Facts that may support we are in the final stages of Christ’s Return. Why stop at mentioning “The Ten”, and not disclose the rest of your homework – in that you KNOW that there was a man who is associated with Document 666 – that creates his power; and he rose right after “The Ten” that you mention, who initially established his Position.

    I wonder if Brother Lindsey has come to the conclusion that he may be wrong about the timing of the Rapture, and this is why he has failed to provide us with a complete follow through, as far as how “The Ten” and it’s coming World Dictator all fit together? Is it perhaps that he would have to recall millions of sold books, and perhaps look the fool; in that he was wrong about a Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

    In closing….we have to be very careful about the half-truths, lies, and deception that is coming our way – especially when it is apparently done in the name of MONEY; which as we know, having the love money in our hearts, is the root of all evil. I believe even those who have adjusted to a certain level of wealth and prestige will succumb to it’s power. What a shame. Now let me do be clear and say that I don’t put Brother Lindsey in this category – yet. But I do question the fact that a man with his biblical intelligence would only put out bits and pieces of the puzzle, when he has a full view of it all.

    We don’t know how all of this may unfold. The last Empire that is mentioned in Scripture may be a Beast System Bible Prophecy may have already been fulfilled when “The Ten” gave it’s authority to this same “Beast System” – when it decided to dissolve July 1, 2011. I wonder why Brother Hal Lindsey didn’t mention that this could be a potential fulfillment of prophecy? Instead he gloats, and points his finger at his critics.

    Let’s stay focused, and stay on course with the facts, and evidence – it edifies us all.

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  3. Comment by Adamantine:
    Mr. Baldy you are absolutely correct in this as I see it. Thank you for pointing it out.
    Why did Hal Lindsey not discuss the whole situation completely????
    He did report on the WEU as a suspicious organization in the past.
    In addition we must ask:
    Why do they refuse to even speak of the seven year ENPI????
    Something is extremely wrong in the world of prophecy reporting as I see it.
    People should be willing to acknowledge others theories.
    It is for this reason that while I do not yet accept the Islamic theories which expect the ten horns to come from the middle east…… should ten nations align in the middle east then we should say so. This has not happened as yet by the way.
    There is a huge cognitive dissonance for me in the comparison of the extreme importance of simply knowing this information that we discuss on this site and the absolute ignorance of it in the “Christian” world.

    Jesus wept because they did not recognize the day of His visitation near the time of His upcoming Crucifixion and he knew of the destruction coming to Jerusalem in AD 70.
    I inwardly weep and agonize over the POTENTIAL problems coming for the ignorant church today. I cannot fully be sad as Jesus was because I do not have His certitude being but a student of the Word and not having the perfect knowledge that Christ had of the future.
    We might truly weep for those who remain ignorant should these theories prove true.
    I was nearly thrown out of a prophecy conference in 2007 and threatened with arrest should i continue to hand out copies of the ENPI. They did not discuss it at the conference and they would not let others speak of it as well.This whole area of religion is seen as through a glass darkly but they acted as if they knew and saw with clarity.
    Folks we admit we see dimly but we do see possible threatening events on the horizon and we have been asking people to watch the horizon in light of these theories.
    I am not so EASILY forgiving of Hal Lindsey in that he has made money from these issues. If the Great late Planet Earth was THE best seller for the 1970’s then he made significant money from the sales.We might hope he reads these comments of ours and comes clean so to speak. It is not too late to speak of these things from his site. He is among those elderly prophecy experts who may pass from the scene unexpectedly having never properly notified their constituents.
    Hence we do not know with certainty but neither does Hal Lindsey. He is in the job of discussing these things and actually has made a living from a lifetime of these discussions. It is his responsibility to be willing to be wrong.
    Herb Peters used to say MAYBE God gave him the information because Herb had no reputation to lose. Hal Lindsey needs to be less concerned about his reputation in the pretrib world of prophecy and report the FULL news.

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  4. It’s certainly a cautionary tale – The Lord has certainly told us in his word what to watch for, but it’s clear he hasn’t told us every detail that we would know them in advance. We must be cautious about filling in the things left blank, or unsaid in scripture with the details of our own theory of future events. With Bible prophecy I don’t think we are given a full narrative of the future – but are told to watch for the occurence of certain things and told that by them we will know that the season is upon us that other things will be fulfilled.

    Mr. Lindsey and others have made the error of writing a future history based on their own theories, elevating their theories by association to be almost like scripture. By doing this they have blinded themselves to what is happening right in front of them. We all may wrong about the weu and the enpi having fulfilled prophecy (although at this moment I doubt it) but at least so far we have been obedient to the point where we could recognize that prophecy was being fulfilled – and not waiting for the fulfillment of our own prophetic theory.

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  5. Guys, please look at Islam for a candidate as the 10 horns. They hate the whore, the new Catholic Monarchy.
    There were 4 beasts in Daniel 7. The first was Nebuchadnezzar with the Babylonian Empire; the second was the Medo-Persian Empire; the third was Greece with Alexander and his 4 generals; the 4th is the one we are looking for.
    If the first three beasts all reined in the Middle East surrounding Jerusalem from Turkey to Iran to Saudi Arabia to Egypt, why would the final beast be in Europe at all. This makes no sense.
    Islam on the other hand is about to become united as each dictator is removed one at a time. There are 1at least 10 Muslim nations covering the area that once belonged to Alexander the Great.
    Jihad is what is described in Rev 13. 666 is properly translated to mean Allah is Lord. There was no words in the language used for Rev so they used an Arabic word.
    The beast is only supposed to be here for 42 months. the EU has already been here longer than that. The prince that makes the 7 year covenant comes from the people who destroyed the temple and JS fits the bill with the EPNI, however, there is no reason scriptural, that he has to be the same man as the little horn. the little horn comes from the area once ruled by Alexander. The teaching makes no sense. It sounds just like pre-trib doctrine, Out of context. Now that I see Islam, I can’t believe I ever fell for the EU. You will think the same once this light comes on.
    Turkey is one to watch. They were worth watching with the EU as they have a desire to be a full member EU member. But Erdegon is also working very hard to get a Muslim confederacy of sorts together. The latest developments are playing in his favor.
    Lebanon is also one to watch as this is where the last Jesuit General retired to.
    The Papacy has long desired to set up the Pope as Vicar of Christ in Jerusalem. The Jesuits were established partly with this in mind. Read up on Loyola, the first Jesuit General. The history of the Jesuits as an army to procure the seat of the Pope in Jerusalem is long and dark, from the crusades to their involvement with Hitler to their involvement with the Zionists.
    Muslims, by doctrine, hate Christians. They think Catholics are Christian and the Pope the head. They will reign together, 7 heads and 10 horns for near 40 months, then 10 Radicals will be placed in control of the horns and they will turn on the Whore and destroy her in one hour.
    There are many more pieces to this puzzle. They all fit.

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  6. Hi Clarence,

    Just for clarification purposes……

    Where do you get your translation when you state:

    “Jihad is what is described in Rev 13. 666 is properly translated to mean Allah is Lord. There was no words in the language used for Rev so they used an Arabic word.”

    I mean, if you would like for those of us who believe that the 4th and final empire is the EU – and you would like us to look at “Islam” for consideration as the 10 horns; then you must qualify where, and/or what you have used as your translation.

    Thank you.

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  7. Hi Clarence – it’s interesting to look at, and if there begins to be a chain of events that match up with prophecy without deviation, I’m certainly keeping my eye on Islam. One prophecy that gives me pause to consider it, and why I have latched on to the idea of a revived Roman Empire as the beast’s kingdom is Daniel 2. It’s pretty clear that the gold head was Babylon, the chest and arms – Medo-Persia, the thighs of bronze – Greece and the legs of iron – Rome. I’m not sure how the toes of iron and clay could be islam – since the prophecy implies they are made of the same stuff as rome, but weaker. Your thoughts?

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  8. http://www.weu.int/
    Click on WMU Council Decision at 10.
    Note especially item #3, which says:

    “3.
    Belgium, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain and the United Kingdom (hereinafter called “the Ten”) recognise that they will be jointly responsible, including financially, to the extent of the key governing mandatory contributions to the WEU, vis-à-vis the European Union Satellite Centre, with respect to the WEU residual administrative obligations specified in paragraph 1 of this Decision, particularly in view of Article 40 of the WEU Pension Rules.

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  9. Here’s a VERY interesting article:

    Effective global governance must be the goal of humanity today
    August 05, 2011 01:27 AM
    By Javier Solana The Daily Star
    (excerpt below)
    While the old power game sought the protection of one’s own interests with no concern for the interests of others, overexposure has brought about the reciprocity of risks, the development of cooperative methods, and the sharing of information and strategies. Truly effective global governance is the strategic horizon that humanity must pursue today with all its energy.

    Read more: http://www.dailystar.com.lb/Opinion/Commentary/2011/Aug-05/Effective-global-governance-must-be-the-goal-of-humanity-today.ashx#axzz1UGNpeb95

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  10. I have read Herb Peters’ Overview, Adamantine’s comments on “The Ten horns as the Ten Nations of the WEU–A review” by Wickus dated January 10, 2011, and the 10 comments. It’s a very interesting theory, some of which might pertain to the WEU evolution into the EU
    hierarchy to play a part in the formation of the New World Order.

    However, there appears to be some conflicts with Scripture:

    1) Daniel 9:27–“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,…” How can we be in the 70th week when there is no Temple (rebuilt) and no sacrifice?

    2) Ezekiel 38:8 (The Lord speaking to Gog) “After many days you shall be visited: in the latter years you shall come into the land (Israel) that is brought back from the sword and is gathered out of many people (diaspora), against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.” Ezekiel 38 is a coalition of non-Arab muslims led by Russia. How can we be in the 70th week when Israel is not dwelling safely and has not since its rebirth as a nation on May 14, 1948?

    3) Psalm 83:4–“They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.” The ancient names of the attackers list all the surrounding Arab Muslim countries. This war has not happened yet. (See Bill Salus–Israelstine.) It would appear that Israel would dwell safely after this war; the Ezekiel 38 war occurs when Israel is living in cities without walls (Ezekiel 38:11).

    4) Isaiah 17:1–“the burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.” It would appear that the destruction of Damascus would fit with the Psalm 83:4. The Jerusalem Post has had various articles telling of the Arab military buildup and the unified desire to destroy Israel.

    A likely scenario based on Scripture: Psalm 83:4 and Isaiah 17:1, followed later by Ezekiel 38 and 39. Ezekiel 39:9 indicates that Israel will use the discarded weapons as fuel for seven years after the Ezekiel 38 war, where the Lord will destroy 5/6 of the invading army.
    Ezekiel 39:12 indicates it will take Israel seven months to bury those killed by the Lord.

    It would appear that from the plain truth of Scripture we are not in the seven-year period of Daniel’s 70th week, the Tribulation/time of God’s wrath on an unrepentant world. (See II
    Thessalonians 2.)

    As for the Rapture, I Thessalonians 13-18 makes clear that the “dead in Christ shall rise first” …Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

    As for the Second Coming, Revelation 1:7 states that the Lord Jesus will come in the clouds and every eye shall see Him.

    Zechariah 14 gives a detailed description of what happens when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth as King of Kings and Lord of Lords–His feet touches the Mount of Olives, which splits in two, making a “very great valley,” etc.

    In conclusion, according to Scripture, believers in the Lord Jesus Christ are not destined to be in the wrath of the 70th week. The Lord Jesus tells us in Matthew 24:34-36 that we can know the generation of his return–not the day or the hour, only the Father knows.

    p.s. If you want to know more, check out: David Reagan, Lamb & Lion Ministries; Hal Lindsey Ministries; Jack Kelley, Grace thru Faith; Prophecy Newswatch; Rapture Ready;
    Jan Markell, Olive Tree Ministries; Bill Koenig, Koenig’s International News; and Jerusalem Post.

    Looking for His soon return,

    Ruth

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  11. Hi Ruth,

    Some of the questions that you raise imply that you are from the Pre-Tribulation Rapture camp. If so, I challenge you to answer your own questions with Scripture. Then see if you can’t “qualify” the reason why most of the aforementioned questions that you have – cannot carry on into the Millennial Reign of Christ.

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  12. Hi Ruth. I personally agree with your view of a Pre-tribulational rapture of the church and believe you presented clear scriptures which support that view.

    I came to this site because I watched Hal Lindsey’s program last week (August 8th) in which he mentioned the WEU being disolved on 6/30/2011, but the core TEN nations remaining. I posted a link in my above post to the document that states the details regarding this. Hal Lindsey feels that those TEN nations will be the end times confederation of nations and I agree with him.

    After studying the information provided by this website, I feel strongly that Javier Solana will very possibly be the antichrist. Time will tell about that, but the article from The Daily Star in my post above BY Javier Solana suggests to me that he is very interested in forming a One World Government.

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  13. I am glad that Hal Lindsey did mention the WEU. I have noticed many search engine hits to this site searching for “WEU the ten”. Not that we can say that this theory is correct 100%, but if there is truth in it (and currently it looks like it), the news needs to get out.

    Ruth, you post many questions, but to answer them all will need a few posts. Most has been discussed on this site. The main thing to consider is that what we discuss here looks like the fulfillment of prophecy. To shove all that is happening aside because there is still no temple or because things does not happen as being told in the Left Behind series is a mistake.

    Pray about it, study the Word. And look at what is happening in the world that links to end time prophecy.

    Wickus

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  14. wickus i appreciate your answer above. God is revealing so much these days. it is key to view a bigger picture with a few missing details rather than not see the whole scene manifesting right in front of our eyes because we think a few seeming holdouts are just not there. they may be there and we don’t have yet enough light or faith to discern at that point or it is simply not an appointed time for a certain passage to manifest-whatever. even if we don’t yet have it all understood we cannot discount what really does add up so far from the Word of God and the years of watching are not in vain. the disciples had the same struggles i notice when Jesus was telling them plainly what He was about to do (His Cross and Resurrection). peter james and john-and they were in the inner circle-really misunderstood the transfiguration but Jesus did not neglect to do that reveal though they clearly did not get it’s meaning at the time. peter may have misspoke on the mountain but was glad at least to have been there! Jesus is very patient with us today as well. He promises-how precious to us that He keeps His promises-light on our pathway. i pray to stay on track-for all of us-because it is indeed a command to watch but the discernment of bible knowledge comes by humbly laying down our own understanding in order to have His. we can really upbuild each other in these instances also. that is a real reason why i come to this site so thanks and may God richly bless you and adamantine and all those who comment for all that time and effort spent. we wait and pray—and watch—together……………

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  15. Mr Baldy;
    You asked where i get my translation. I use the King James Bible. I use others to clarify and I use the New King James to daily read.
    Walid Shoebat is an ex terrorist who met Jesus. He reads the original bible writing. He explained that he was astounded when he read the revelations and found that the word we say is 666 was not actually a Greek or Hebrew word (I don’t recall which) but an Arabic word that means Allah is Lord. I warn you that Walid sees Babylon the great as Islam as well as the beast so he does not have a perfect revelation. But who does? Others I have listened to also back up this understanding.
    Whether you approve my translation or not should not be the deciding point here. We must line our understanding up with the word of God. Does good reason and the word prove the EU is the beast or does it prove that Islam is the Beast. What does Daniel say in your translation? It says the same in mine accept the word MIDST might be MIDDLE in Daniel 9:27. If we accept that it is properly middle then Daniel 8 11-14 does not make sense and is confusing. Daniel 8 11 is talking about the little horn taking away the daily sacrifice and setting up the abomination. When asked how long concerning this he is told 2300 days. If the Jan 1 2007 is the covenant then there is still lots of time to build the temple and set up the abomination because 2300 days brings us to mid April 2013.

    JustASheep;
    When I was of the EU persuasion I always thought that iron and clay meant the EU and the US (the second beast of Rev 13) However since I have been looking at Islam as the beast it makes more sense that the iron is Islam and the clay either the US (very soon to be under Muslim control) or the Papacy in Rome. Either way gives it place. The second beast in Rev 13 has 2 horns and has as much power as the first beast. Horns are kings so this second beast is a pair of nations. (The US and Canada under the name of the American Union or the US and Britain as strong allies) The US will have just as much power as Islam under the coming Regime. With all that is going on in the US with the New World Order and the organizing over-through of the government by the last several Presidents, this is not hard to see. It would take to long to go into that on this post and is not related close enough to the topic.
    Just because we believe something doesn’t mean it is true. Surely we have all realized things that we once believed to be true are actually error. We must remain teachable. Look again at Daniel 7 and 8. The parcel of land that the first kingdoms fought over was the middle East. Why would God change the real-estate to Europe for the final beast. And isn’t Islam diverse from all of the former beasts. How does Europe even compare to these former kingdoms. Each kingdom followed the other in the same land and today that land belongs to Muslims.

    Lyn;
    If you sincerely seek the truth you will find it. but if you get offended your spirit will not here truth. Love the truth and don’t care what anyone says. I do not mean love the doctrine you already believe is truth for that is the error of the majority. Take wisdom and build your house. You will find it will stand the test of time.
    Your statement causes thought but everything I look at has Islam written all over it. Walid Shoebat’s teaching on the mark was the clincher for me. I then began to watch Glen Beck on Fox news. Many Christians don’t like the guy but what I see is a guy with a lot of information and a clear picture of where it is going. He sounds like he is full of himself and that turns a lot of people off and his obvious frustration at people refusing to listen makes him come off foolish looking some times but the guy has it figured out. I know how he feels. I have things that I cannot share with the strongest Christians i know because they won’t look at the whole picture.
    Satin has many counterfeits that he throws at us to detour us from the truth. We all fall for some of his junk once in a while. Pride blinds the human soul from revelation. Of course we always think it is the other guys pride. Dumb sheep we are.
    I see that Solana is responsible for making the covenant (EPNI) and I understand that the 10 members makes sense with “some” scripture, but it doesn’t make sense with Daniel 7 and 8’s beast coming after Alexander and the Medes and Persians and Nebuchadnezzar who all reigned over the same territory.
    There is enough evidence in favor of Islam being the beast that, if you are unable to accept it, you should at least realize it as a possibility.

    Ruth;
    Midst in Daniel 9:27 does not necessarily mean middle as most bibles translate. If we want to take away the confusion we have to accept it is midst as in somewhere within but perhaps not the exact middle. We can then understand Daniel 8:11-14. If the covenant is made on Jan 1 2007 and then the 2300 days are taken from Daniel 8:13’14, we come to about April 18 2013. If you can accept that then your first question is answered. Many will say it is wrong, but this is what the word says. Then the only confusion comes from the teachers not from the word.
    Ezekiel could be speaking of the very end of the beasts reign when the 10 kings of Rev 18 are set up for one hour and destroy Babylon the great, the mother of harlots. However I think if you take a closer look at scripture there are possibly 2 periods of time given in one here. Remember in Daniel the 70 week are almost fulfilled when Jesus is crucified. The last week never was yet fulfilled. However, when you read it, it seams to flow together. The word does that sometimes. Take a look at Rev 20 when Gog and Magog are tempted by Satin one more time. This is after Jesus has reigned on the earth for 1000 years. I guarantee you there will be no walls and they will be at peace.
    So though we are seeing the beginning of that scripture manifest in our time, the finality of that scripture is for a time way in the future. Does that make it a little clearer for you?
    I would like to know where you got the 5/6th of Gog destroyed. I don’t see it. Please let me know. Check the context and the possible timing. Remember, if Gog and Magog are at the end of the Millennium then some must survive. It is interesting that the Quran tells of Jesus return as well. Of course they don’t see him as the Son of God but as a prophet. But they do see him return. Think about that. When Jesus appears all who were raised Christian will recognize hi, some to their own sorrow. All who are of Israel will recognize him as the true Messiah as well. But the Muslims will believe that their Quran is true because it speaks of his return. They won’t come to him as the son of God. This is the snare that will allow them to continue until the end of Christ’s millennial reign. O, the wisdom of God. It baffles us humans when we are full of pride.
    Concerning the Rapture, the wrath of God is taught out of context as is the tribulation. It is not 7 years. There is no scripture to back that teaching up in context. The ONLY 7 year thing we have in scripture is a covenant. That is all. The rest is confusion.
    The great tribulation is not even the wrath of God. It’s bad, but it’s not the wrath. The great tribulation starts after the abomination is set up which is 2300 days after the covenant is signed. That is what the word says and I am sticking to it. Rightly divide the word of truth. I can see by your comments you are searching. Don’t be as many and settle for scraps when you can have a feast. If you do you will miss the next great revelation God has for you.
    The key is Humble, Humble, Humble.
    In Revelations the seals come first, then the trumpets and then the thunders (whatever they are) and then the wrath has come. Read what it describes as wrath in those verses. These things are not mentioned before the bowls. There is a lot of death and war and stuff, but the wrath is leashed out on the flesh from within it seams. Earthquakes and tsunamis etc are all tribulation. Sores and boils and the such are torment that you cannot hide from or run from. Check it out. The church is gone by that time even in a post trib rapture.
    The rapture is by all scripture in context at the end of the reign of the beast. (Almost 10 years from the signing of the covenant. However there is a child caught up to be with his God around the time the beast begins to reign and the woman of Rev 12 goes into the wilderness. This child is not Jesus because rev 4 says all of these things come after John received the Rev and Christ was already gone.
    The woman is dressed in the sun so according to 2Pe 1:19 (We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:) she understands prophecy. However, she has the moon under her feet. Satin is the prince of darkness. I see the moon meaning she is walking in darkness. Just as the woman is many so is the child. The child has come out of all of the churches and is walking in obedience to Christ. They hear his voice and are called up but the woman according to Galatians 5 and what I see in all of the churches is disobedient and by no means will be caught up. The child is kept from the hour of temptation that comes upon the world to test them according to Rev 3, but the woman has to be tested to see where her heart is during the 1260 day reign of the beast.
    I hope you are realizing that there is much confusion being taught as truth and not thinking I am just another know it all. Test these things with the word. It is balanced and there is an answer for every question. It is between you and the Lord not you and the other believers. Notice the last verse in Rev 12:17 (And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ). This verse proves that this chapter is all about the church. The next time you go to church look around you. Don’t judge but be discerning. Will everyone you see pass the test of Galatians 5. Paul lists the sins of the flesh and then warns, not judges, he warns us that those who practice these things will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Many Baptists figuratively cut that verse out of their bible. We were grafted in and we can be grafted out. Simple truth.
    You say only the Father knows when the lord is coming. Please look at that verse in the book of Acts again and read the but. It is like the ones in 1Thess 5:1 Read the buts. No study the buts. The buts are for those who really want the truth.
    Look at Daniel 12:12 What is the blessed day God is referring to here. It has to be the rapture. Now do some very simple math with scripture. & year covenant plus 2300 days to the beginning of the Tribulations plus 1335 days to the rapture. It doesn’t matter how you read those verses they add up to rapture when taken in context. We are not of the night, we are of the day. Rev talks to the churches in the first 3 chapters. He warns us that the light will be taken away if we are disobedient and then the lord will come upon us as a thief. The word is a light to our path and a lamp to our feet. What does it say after each but in the word?
    There are truths is scripture that all of those who you listed are missing. Do not be a follower,be a seeker.
    Lyn:
    You said that Ruth gave clear scripture of a pre-tribulation rapture. Can you show us these scriptures? I see none. I have looked at every pre trib teaching I could find and found none that made perfect sense. Many have the foundation of a 7 year tribulation lie to prove their validity. There is no 7 year tribulation. One teaching says that when Jon is called up at the VOICE LIKE a trumpet that the church is not mentioned after this and therefore is not here. It’s a voice not a trumpet. It’s calling John, not the church and who are those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus (prophecy) in Daniel 12:12? They are the church. And even if it were a trumpet, it is not the last trumpet. There are 7 more.
    Another says the wicked one sits in the temple and that he is the one who makes the covenant for 7 years, and that he is revealed when he makes the covenant. The bible doesn’t say that. One person thought it and taught it and now thousands believe it. The one who sits in the temple is not the guy who makes the covenant. Nor is he the Muslim little horn. A Muslim would never sit in the Jews Temple and he would never say he was God. He would get killed. No the Identity of this one will be hidden and keep everyone thinking until the end of the reign of the beast.
    The covenant that Solana signed was not made that day. It was made with several different countries over 20 years. It was confirmed the day he signed it and he comes from the EU which once was the Roman Empire. It is exactly according to scripture. But no-one who believes in a pre 7 year rapture can see it because they are still here. All because they believe there are 7 years tribulation when the bible doesn’t say so.
    I hope you all read this carefully and think on what i have said. Look it up again and rethink it. There is so much confusion in the church. How can the EU be the beast when the beast hates the Whore Babylon, and destroys her in one hour. Most of the EU are members of Babylon. These are all Christian nations in the worlds terms. They would never destroy their mother church.
    However, Islam hates the Christians. (They see Catholicism as the Christians) Moderate Muslims will willingly hold hands with Christians and rule the world together. But near the end of their rule the little horn will take his place and set up 10 kings who are radicals and have vowed to make Islam the only religion. They will have motive to destroy Babylon.
    Scripture is so clear when you understand all of the players.
    Here is a puzzle for you. In Rev 9 the pit is opened and the locust are released. If the beast is Muslim or even if it was the EU, why is it the locust only harm those who have the mark? I warn you, the answer to this is hard to accept but will bring perfect balance to many scriptures. They have a king over them who’s name is Destroyer. It is he who sits in the temple casting down the idol that the pope has placed there and he trully believes he is GOD.

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  16. Clarence,

    The scriptures that Ruth presented regarding the timing of the rapture as pre-tribulational were:
    2 Thessalonians 2:7. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
    She said:
    It would appear that from the plain truth of Scripture we are not in the seven-year period of Daniel’s 70th week, the Tribulation/time of God’s wrath on an unrepentant world. (See II Thessalonians 2.)

    (Regarding her reference to 2 Thessalonians 2:7, many people believe that this verse refers to the Holy Spirit being the restrainer Who indwells His Bride, the Church.)

    She said:
    As for the Rapture, I Thessalonians 13-18 makes clear that the “dead in Christ shall rise first” …Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
    As for the Second Coming, Revelation 1:7 states that the Lord Jesus will come in the clouds and every eye shall see Him.
    Zechariah 14 gives a detailed description of what happens when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth as King of Kings and Lord of Lords–His feet touches the Mount of Olives, which splits in two, making a “very great valley,” etc.

    (I believe these scriptures exclude a post-tribulational view because of the obvious differences in the way the Bible describes the rapture and the second coming.)

    Also, her closing statement…
    “In conclusion, according to Scripture, believers in the Lord Jesus Christ are not destined to be in the wrath of the 70th week.

    (According to 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 5:9, the church will not suffer God’s wrath. Then Revelation 6:16 and 17 indicate that the wrath of God has begun with the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God is FINISHED (or completed) with the seven bowls, according to Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished.)

    Therefore, it seems to me that the rapture must occur (at the very latest) sometime before the 6th seal begins.

    I have read Walid Shoebat’s book as well as Joel Richardson’s book “The Antichrist” and I agree that Islam could very possibly be the end time religion. For a while, I held entirely to that view, but current events regarding the WEU and Solana’s reemergence has caused me to realize that the wisest thing to do is to watch both scenarios with an open mind. It seems to me, at this point, that it could go either way.

    I also watched Glenn Beck when he was on TV and learned a lot from him. I especially appreciate his admonition to support Israel. Even though he is a Mormon, I believe he has a lot of understanding regarding Israel and the fact that everything regarding prophecy is related to Israel. I pray for Israel daily, for God’s protection of her and for wisdom for her leaders.

    I hope this answers your questions. God bless you!

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  17. Lyn;
    I understand Ruth gave scripture. What I don’t see is proof. The assumption that the wicked one is revealed when he signs the covenant is the error that is confusing this issue. Because you believe that teaching, you see the rapture at the beginning of the 7 years and are willing to throw out the scriptures pertaining to the trumpets. that point directly wt the end of the reign of the beast. There is nowhere in scripture that states that the wicked one in Thess. is the one who makes the covenant. There is no 7 year tribulation and no wrath before the bowls that follow the trumpets.
    The word is to be your light. It proves doctrine to be right or wrong. The teachers that are the most prominent are the pre-trib teachers, but that doesn’t make them right if the word is against them. They refuse to accept the last trumpet as the 7th trumpet. They would rather accept that the wicked one is the prince of Daniel 9:26’27 with no sound scriptural reason.
    As far as the second coming and the rapture goes, your reasoning may be true but it doesn’t mean there are 7 years between the 2. There could be a week or month or even a year, which I doubt. Ruth has not given evidence and nor have you. What you are giving is doctrine that has been passed on as truth but is based on an assumption that is contrary to the word.
    We are told to cast down every high thought that rises up against the knowledge of God, not man, and to rightly divide the word of truth. You can’t do that unless you accept the trumpets as truth.
    As far as the wrath goes in Thess the last trumpet sounds before the bowls and there is no wrath before the bowls. There is great tribulation, but there is no wrath.
    Judgement begins in the house of God and the 2 witnesses prophecy against the house of God. They are told to leave the courtyard alone and only measure those who worship in the temple. For the last 42 months this will be the Pope and his followers. After they finish their testimony they are killed by the beast from the pit, then rise from the dead, then they are raptured, then the last, seventh trumpet sounds and the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our lord and savior.
    Jesus points to the same time with the great trumpet of Matthew 15:31. 2nd Corinthians says last trumpet we will be changed. Thess mirrors Corinthians in it’s description so it is the same event.
    Why should we believe someones assumptions ahead of this word?
    you said, “Therefore, it seems to me that the rapture must occur (at the very latest) sometime before the 6th seal begins. ”
    Look at the seals. They come before the trumpets. Are you seriously believing the “assumption” that the wicked one is the same man as Daniel’s prince in chapter 9 ahead of believing the last trumpet is the last trumpet?

    Why?

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  18. hey bro, your the first I found on the internet that actually mentions the weu as the ten horns of the beast. Treaty of Brussels and Rome anyone ??? I would like to point out that the ten will give their power and authority over to the beast for the war to ensue with the Lamb before they destroy the harlot. As you said and correct in your statement, the weu is a military alliiance and now is totally immersed in the EU.
    On 13 November 2000, WEU Ministers met in Marseille and agreed to begin transferring the organization’s capabilities and functions to the European Union, under its developing Common Foreign and Security Policy (CFSP) and Common Security and Defense Policy (CSDP). With the transfer of responsibilities, the WEU’s Parliamentary assembly was urged to dissolve itself, as it had a mandate to supervise WEU politics, not the EU’s CSDP politics. But the Assembly saw itself as playing an important role, particularly with greater right of scrutiny, membership, experience and expertise in defense policy. Therefore, it renamed itself the “Interim European Security and Defense Assembly” and urged the European Convention to include it as a second chamber within the EU’s institutional framework.This merger coincides with bible prophecy to the letter !!
    Check out my website at http://www.avoicewithinamerica.com and click on the bible prophecy link. I’m sure you’ll be delighted on some of the juicy tidbits that I have written there.
    I’ve bookmarked your page and please feel free to e-mail me. Times are getting exciting and you’ll see as to why when you visit my website concerning bible prophecy.

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  19. your site appears to be outta sight at first glance,….can’t wait to dig in further. ///\\\ i can see them, they can’t see me,…..i feel out of sight! //\\ i love the Johnathan Seagull story

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