Wickus here:
I was never a big supporter of the idea that Jesus fulfilled the first half of the 70th week, but after I’ve read Passerby’s post of the 20th, I started to investigate the idea. I am not dogmatic about it and are more than willing to discuss it. I just want to share some thoughts with you all.
After reading and re-reading Dan 9:26 and 27, some of the old gray matter started to send sparks in my head.
Daniel 9:26 (KJV)
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
The key to my thinking is the word “after”. Synonyms for “after” will be afterwards, succeeding, thereafter, later, next. Definition for “after” according to the dictionary is “following a time or event”. Now read the verse again with the synonyms replacing “after”. It does change the meaning, doesn’t it?
Is there maybe a clue in it for us? You see, the verse does not say that at the end of the 69th week Messiah will be cut of, but afterwards or succeeding the 69th week. Now can it be that the 70th week did start with the ministry of Jesus at the end of the 69th week? Maybe there was no gap between week 69 and 70. His ministry was only for 3.5 years or 42 months according to history . If seen in this way it does clarify why Scripture does not say too much about the first 42 months of the 70th week but mostly focus on the last 42 months. So if my gray matter is not having a malfunction, there is a possibility that the 70th week was stopped after it started with the ministry of Jesus and Him being cut off after 3.5 years.
Now verse 27 explains the 7 year covenant with many that most prophecy teachers (yours truly included) are trying to link with the start of the 70th week. This is where it is getting interesting. Is the covenant with many really the 70th week or only a marker that we are approaching the last 42 months of the 70th week? We are currently in the time of a 7 year covenant with many nations known as the European Neighbourhood Policy (Instrument) or ENP(I). We have passed the midpoint roughly in June/July 2010. Many who were watching it unfold got discouraged when no stopping of sacrifice or anything of significance happened.
I feel it is important that we must keep the ENP(I) in mind. Its time will run out in Dec 2013. If the 7 year covenant is separate from the 70th week, and we only have 42 months left in the 70th week, we might be very close to the AoD event that according to me will be the start of the 42 months.
UNSEALED PROPHECY 
Very interesting.
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Adamantine:
Amen
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Hi Wickus,
After reading this……I believe that you have left out a very important factor in your reading. And that would be verse 25.
According to what you have posted, that would only be 62 weeks. Verse 25 includes an additional 7 weeks – which brings the total to 70.
What I find very interesting is the fact that verse 25 first mentions 7 weeks – then it adds the 62 weeks. Why did the Prophet Daniel just not begin verse 25 with saying 70 weeks all together – as verse 24 begins this whole line of thinking? Mentioning this 7 weeks first, appears to have some significance.
When considering the ENP(I) theory; the information that Passerby and yourself, have posted makes a world of sense, when you include what is being stated in verse 25 – and subsequently looking at the entire senario of Daniel 9:4-27.
It appears to be two separate implications are mentioned here; in that the first 7 weeks (verse 25) is united with the final 62 weeks; but it shows a “distinction” in that the 7 weeks are mentioned first. Then we must consider that a final, yet specific week in which the Antichrist confirms the Covenant with Many is mentioned.
Could this “distinction” mean, or be a clue as you are indicating, that the 70th week has a beginning point dealing with the ministry of Christ?. With this “distinction” being mentioned; the week that the Antichrist confirms the Covenant with Many could only be an “indicator”, or “marker” which ushers in the final 3.5 years – which appears to be in harmony with Daniel and Revelation, in that they both only speak of a 42 month period.
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Fwiw, tying the entire 70th week of Daniel to Jewish years of 360 days each, with an ocassional extra 30-day month (as opposed to a Gregorian calendar of 365.25 days in a year, i.e., the 7-year ENPI), may make the most sense, as events take place on God’s calendar, not man’s.
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Hi Mr Baldy
Yes sorry, my bad. There is the first 7 weeks that I did not mention as you have stated. Add to that the 62 weeks totals 69 weeks fulfilled in the past that will give us the 69 weeks (483 years) were after the Messiah was cut off.
We have often wondered why there is not much mentioned about the first 42 months of the 70th week. I have read Daniel and Revelation many times, but it is primarily about the last 42 months. Could it be that the first 42 months is mentioned in the Bible many times in the Gospels, but we did not see it as such? I have known that the ministry of Christ was for 3.5 year for many years, but the dots were never connected.
It does make sense Passerby.
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May be going out on a limb (if so, please forgive), but Christ fulfilled the first four festivals in the spring, after which comes summer (i.e., possibly the church age), before the final fall harvest and Christ’s second coming; which would seem to perfectly align with the proposed interpretation of Daniel’s 70th week.
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P.S. The 7-year ENP(I), if indeed it is prophetically significant, would seem to be an almost perfect parody of God’s plan (i.e., Daniel’s 70th week), if indeed they are two separate entities:
1) One of the ENPI’s major tenets (if not the major underlying principle) is to establish peace and stability in the EU “neighborhood,” which includes the M.E. and Israel.
Note: The 70th week of Daniel appears to be God’s week to establish peace between Himself and mankind, via the Messiah, Christ. Also, peace between Himself and the nation of Israel, via the Messiah, Christ.
2) Sacrifices are halted, in both weeks, in the “midst.”
3) One week takes place on God’s calendar, the other, on man’s calendar.
4) Both week’s are instituted by individual men, i.e., Christ and the other, the a/c (whoever he is).
God’s calendar would appear to completely overshadow all, as it should (although more like the inverse of a shadow, as in light).
Am sure there are others; please feel free to contribute.
Fwiw.
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This is incredible information, which absolutely should be passed around.
Perhaps in brainstorming this idea with others, this end time mystery can be revealed.
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Wickus here:
I must admit, passerby is giving great information. Thank you! And yes Mr B, brainstorming is a good idea, as prophecy is not something for private interpretation.
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Adamantine to passerby;
Yes excellent potential insight! Daniel 9:27 is about the treaty of the Prince of the people that shall come i.e. the Antichrist and the 70th week is undoubtedly Gods determination for Israel and His Holy city. These different motivations help define the potential differences between the possible two time periods beyond simple chronology. Please write this up for a front page post …beyond these comments where less will have seen them.
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Thanks for the encouraging words.
For better, or for worse, yours truly’s understanding of the festivals primarily came from Mr. Eddie Chumney’s book, The Seven Festivals of the Messiah, available free online at:
http://www.hebroots.com/heb_root.html
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Reblogged this on Unsealed Prophecy and commented:
This was originally posted on 25 September 2010.
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Thanks for pulling this back up- it seems possible. I’ve always been uncomfortable with those that interpret prophecy that insist that their connections in the text “must” be true. I know the text is true, but if it is not explicit in connecting one thing to another how can we presume with 100% confidence that the connecting line we have drawn is correct – it is certainly not a god-breathed connecting line unless the text said it was so. Nonetheless, I still think we’re going to be here for more of this than the pretribbers think, otherwise why would he have told us so much to watch for, and provided so many details.
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Hi family,
I thought i should add this link for investigation too…..it’s my personal viewpoint.
I’m glad this subject is up for open discussion 🙂
http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=57088
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The link is fixed.
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I wish i could type faster and share much of the stuff in my heart that i feel has come from the Lord to me but i just lack the time and ability.
I have spoken with Tony on the phone several times and ya know, it’s so wonderful, he loves our God so much…….You’re such a blessing to me Tony.
I have a link I’ll put on later too that we can discuss here; the main issue i wanted to talk about and get others ideas on got sidetracked at FP and i just know there’s so much to it and i’ve just had it only in my thoughts it seems and haven’t heard anything pertaining to it before…maybe some of you have.
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I’ll try it this way………………from a thread at FB named “Abram’s Sacrifice”
[quote=”shorttribber”]Gen.15: 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
7 And he said unto him, I [am] the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
8 And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
……………………………………………………………………………………
9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
10 And he took unto him all these, and…………… divided them in the midst,………… and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.
11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
…………………………………………………………………………………….
12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land [that is] not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites [is] not yet full.
…………………………………………………………………………………….
17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
…………………………………………………………………………………….
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
Can anyone see an example or foreshadow of the Abramic covenant divided in the MIDST?
Most of you know I see Christ in Daniel 9:27 and the Covenant Confirmed is the Abramic Covenant….divided in the MIDST by the sacrifice of Christ……the times of the gentiles to “bring in/come in” during that apox 2,000 year division
I do believe now that Abram’s sacrifice ordered by God may have been the foreshadow of such
I’ve just taken notice the past few days of this and have been checking out the types and shadows of that event and it is very interesting.
:snack:[/quote]
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The “Messenger of The Covenant”
How can this be overlooked by so many?
http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=60748
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test post….
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Test passed.
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I wish i knew what happened to my earlier post..anyway I’ll try again later
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It’s an interesting take on things, not sure whether I agree or not about the starting of the 70th week during Christ’s ministry. I have to ask though, as far as what we are watching for, the signs of Christ’s return – what does it change? Of course, it throws off lots of people’s carefully crafted timetables, I have to be honest in saying I don’t place very much stock in them anyway. We are still looking then for the sacrifice to be taken away, the two witnesses maybe the AoD (which I might argue is one of the later events, but that’s for another discussion).
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Hi JAS7,
You can call me ST for “short”…..get it, SHORTtribber? LOL!!!….”i gotta million of’m”.
Ok….enough of that.
The “daily” is what will be taken away, the two witnesses will coincide with that event and the AOD will all occur together, yes.
Did you have the time to check my explaination regarding thos things?
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Here’s part of the post that didn’t work the first time:
Has anyone ever considered, seen or heard of what i’ll show you next? Just let it sink in for a while.
Gen 15: 17 And it came to pass, that, when the ….sun went down, and it was dark…., behold a smoking furnace, and a burning……. LAMP that passed BETWEEN…… those pieces.
OK……..now this.
Is 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, [and] his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, [and] the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that [are] in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures [shall be] in all high places.
Is 49:
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The LAMP passed BETWEEN the…….TWO…….PIECES.
That’s a shadow of the Gospel and the TIMES of the Gentiles family of God!
Christ, GIVEN for a COVENANT…….He in the first half…….and His spiritual Body (household of faith/the church/Jew and Gentile)…..BETWEEN…..the TWO PIECES of “THE COVENANT”…………………WITH MANY……….and the CONFIRMATION will be completed in the final……..BY Christ and those (His Body) who SHARE/KONONIA/COMMUNE WITH/AGREE WITH………His/Our Testimony Rev 12:
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that last ref. is ….Rev 12:11
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Ment also to say after the word final……..3.5
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Okay shortie we gotta talk…LOL 🙂
No seriously my brother you have no idea how your post has released (?) me from a burden that has been so heavy on my heart over the past little while and would really appreciate it if we could expound on what you have presented here.
You have affirmed one of the *five stones the Lord gave me ( scriptures) back in July 2011 and have clarified a few other questions I have been seeking the Lord on over the past week as a few of us have been discussing this via e-mail.(Not that I want to discuss the affirmation ) here but would be so blessed if you would expound on a few things.
Shorttribber may we tackle each point individually so as to any confusion or eliminate any misunderstanding…
May I start?
1) The candlesticks ?
Who and what do they represent?
2) The tribe of Jacob ?- Mal 3:6 — For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
3) ( If ) Christ fulfilled the first half of His ministry and we whom are born of the spirit & Messianic believers fulfil the last 42 months of Christ’s ministry, what then, does that make us? The two olive branches?
Zec 4:11 — Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
Zec 4:12 — And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
1) Zechariah 4:6
*Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
2) Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb,
3) and by the word of their testimony;
4) and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Revelation 12:10-12
5) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Isaiah 55:10-12
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Shorty, this is good stuff. 🙂 Thank you. Now its back to the Bible for me…
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Wickus, and all……….
Vic, let me first start by saying that I thank you for re-posting this thread. As I have mentioned before “brainstorming” this idea concerning the AOD and the 70th week is key to understanding where we may be at on the prophetic time chart – and at some point we will be pointed in the right direction.
After continuous study on this topic, I must say that I really don’t believe that Christ’s Ministry fulfilled the 1st half of the final week. Nor do I believe that the 70th week is divided in to 2 halves. I’m not dogmatic about this view – but I believe that Matthew 24 answers our question.
As you all know, the disciples came to Jesus privately asking Him the very topic that we are discussing. They asked Him: 1) When will theses things be? (concerning the End); 2) What will be the sign of your coming?; and 3) What will be the close of the age?
If we continue to read Matthew 24, Jesus answers the disciples questions. He first tells them that see that no one leads you astray. Then He speaks of the things that will be; in that He mentions wars, and rumors of war; nation rising against nation,and kingdom against kingdom; famines and earthquakes – Jesus states that the things are “birth pains”. Jesus then goes on to explain what will happen during the “birth pains”.
The “key” (in my very humble opinion) comes in when He mentions the A0D. Jesus mentions this to answer the question concerning the close of the age. The current World that we live in will have a “closing age” – but this will not be the End. Jesus goes on to tell the disciples the sign of His coming, which will occur after the “tribulation of those days”.
Wickus, Scott, Mathieu, Hisown, Jackie, Doug, and others………
To the “others” we have been communicating via email in an effort to understand the End Times. Scott – as many of you know has his own site: “Born to Watch”. Scott has identified the A0D as the start of the 70th week, and the fact that the 70th week will not end until the Millennial Reign of Christ is over. I concur wholeheartedly. I believe that this can be supported with Scripture. What we have communicated to each other is so amazing that I wish that I had the time to put up some of the notes that we all have come to a common understanding on.
I will post a brief synopsis:
Daniel mentions the week that the coming Antichrist will confirm the covenant with many – which many understand to be when the final week is initiated. I do not agree with this interpretation – as Daniel goes on to explain the 1,290 days and 1,335 days respectively in Daniel 12:11-12; this period of time includes the A0D, and the cessation of sacrifices. Jesus Himself, points to the A0D, in Matthew 24:15, and this passage of Scripture requires that the “reader understand”.
So if we have this right (again not being dogmatic about this view) – then the A0D begins the 1st day of the 70th week – and it will include a time of tribulation; the return of Christ; the Sheep/Goats Judgement; the Millennial Reign; the time that Satan is let loose from prison; and the final Gog/Magog war – which will lead to the Great White Throne Judgement. Then the Eternal State.
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For those who think that Jesus fulfilled 3.5 years of the final week – please consider the following:
1) Why doesn’t Scripture indicate this in Daniel 9:24-27 – but the 70 weeks are identified, and gives concrete evidence that 69 of the 70 weeks have been fulfilled, as we know it today – and this actually included the death of Jesus?
2) So, If 69 weeks in Daniel 9:24-26 in the 70 week decree included the death of Christ – then why wouldn’t the final week include His Reign, the time that Satan is let loose; and the final rebellion? In other words….the entire time should include Him, and not end (the final week) at His coming – as many believe. In following 1 Corinthians 15: 20-28, which indicates that He must Reign until He puts the final enemy under His feet; which is “death”. Death and hell are cast into the lake of fire – at the final Judgement, and will sum up the entire 70 weeks.(imho) Christ then hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, so that God may be all in all.
We must remember that there are 6 requirements mentioned in Daniel 9:24: 1) to finish the transgression; 2) to put an end to sin; 3)to atone for iniquity; 4) to bring in everlasting righteousness; 5) to seal both vision and prophet; and 6) to anoint a most holy place.
NOTE: ** These are the requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24 that “are decreed” for Daniels’ people and the holy city – and WILL be established in the 70 week time frame that is given.
Just askin……and more importantly Just learnin……
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Now lets try to learn together Mr B.
You ask:
I guess the closest we will get to the answer to this question is the statement in verse 26 that says that AFTER 62 weeks the Messiah shall be cut of. Clearly at the end of the three score two weeks (69th week) the Messiah has not been cut of, but only after. So we can assume that the 70th week may have started directly after the end of the 69th week, thus the Messiah was cut of (crucified) AFTER the 69th week and INTO the 70th week. There is no indication that there was a gap between the first week and the 62 weeks. Why should there be a gap between the 69th week and the 70th week? It makes sense to me that the prophetic calender stopped when Messiah was cut of after the 69th week and into the 70th week. That is a huge reason for God to stop the prophetic time.
You ask:
The final week will include His reign. There I am in agreement with you. If there are 42 months left, it fits prophecy like a glove. It fits the time in Revelation that the AC will get his power. And we only need one day in the end of the 70th week to last for a thousand years to include the Kingdom of Christ on earth.
I really fail to see how it will influence anything if the AoD starts the 70th week or if the AoD starts the middle of the last 42 moths. On both occasions there will be 42 months for the antichrist to rule before Jesus returns in glory. All we will need is a spare day (2 Peter 3:8) to fulfill the requirements of Dan 9:24.
PS. Like you I am not dogmatic about this. Just trying to understand. So please do not spare my feelings.
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Oh, before I forget Mr B, you said that you don’t see the 70th week divided into two halves. If so, why are the book of Revelation only mentioning half a week. 42 months, 3.5 years, 1260 days. This is even mentioned in Daniel. There is only one place in the Bible were there is mentioned made of 7 years, and that is in Dan 9:27. I would rather say that the Bible is clear that there is only 3.5 years left after the stopping of sacrifice/AoD. There is very little evidence of a final 7 year period.
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Vic you said “I really fail to see how it will influence anything if the AoD starts the 70th week or if the AoD starts the middle of the last 42 moths. On both occasions there will be 42 months for the antichrist to rule before Jesus returns in glory”
Yes it is irrelevant I agree .
As you mentioned Vic there is no mention of a 7 year trib but only of a short 42 month one. Back in 2007 when we discussed the confirmed Luke 21 v 20 scripture and the possible AOD understanding, I believe the Lord was trying to show us that there is no 3rd temple and NO AC sitting in it . ( Possible apostasy and the start of the falling away as satan takes up his seat in the congregation ) Could the ENPI only have been a ” marker ” or a heads up that would alert the body the coming ” appointed -time”? We were so focussed on counting the ” days” and midst of the week that we missed the whole purpose it seems. When we look back now there was no Middle East uprising in July 2010 and this caused me to go back to the drawing board as no AC stood up in the midst of the week either right. 🙂
I would really appreciate it if Shortribber would expound on what he has proposed on the covenant – Christ being the first half and the completion of the second half through the spiritual body.
There are so many other questions that need to be asked but to eliminate any misunderstanding it would be best to keep these till each point is discussed 🙂
Thank-you guys for the most amazing blessing as I learn and grow with you all as we come to the unity of the faith .
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I took a quick peek at the thread Shorttribber included to understand more fully the points he alluded too. I may need more than just one cuppa coffee this morning. Yikes 🙂
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this is also such a blessing for me! It looks like I am almost the only one here in the Netherlands with these theory and studies..
well HisOwn, maybe I could get your e-mail adress, you could join the email study I have with mr. Baldy, Wickus and Scott… I am also interested in what “Shorty” has to say..
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Check your mail Mat.
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Matt that was hilarious!!!
This ye Hisown is Colleen jong man 🙂
Oh my that made us laugh out loud round the dinner table today 🙂
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well thank you! I am so sorry.. hey! I am from Holland… that should be a good excuus!
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Vic,
I think that you have missed my point. You say this:
“The final week will include His reign.”
I agree. But you have only listed it as 42 months to include one day for the 1,000 year reign. Well, you can’t have it both ways. And you are missing the fact that Daniel has a mentioned a 1,290 day period and 1,335 day period. This is outside of a 42 month period. You have also not explained the “short season” in which Satan is let loose to deceive the Nations at the end of the Millennial Reign.
Then you say this:
“I really fail to see how it will influence anything if the AoD starts the 70th week or if the AoD starts the middle of the last 42 moths. On both occasions there will be 42 months for the antichrist to rule before Jesus returns in glory. All we will need is a spare day (2 Peter 3:8) to fulfill the requirements of Dan 9:24.”
Oh, but it makes a big difference. You are only accounting for 42 months. In order to fulfill the requirements of Daniel 9:24 – the last enemy to be destroyed is “death”. (1 Corinthians 115:20-28) If the A0D starts the first day of the final week, then all of the times are inclusive – to include the 42 month reign of the Antichrist; the 1,290 days, the 1,335 days, the Millennial Reign, the “short season” in which Satan is let loose, and the final battle of Gog/Magog. This is what I believe that you have overlooked.
You further mention this:
“I guess the closest we will get to the answer to this question is the statement in verse 26 that says that AFTER 62 weeks the Messiah shall be cut of. Clearly at the end of the three score two weeks (69th week) the Messiah has not been cut of, but only after. So we can assume that the 70th week may have started directly after the end of the 69th week, thus the Messiah was cut of (crucified) AFTER the 69th week and INTO the 70th week. There is no indication that there was a gap between the first week and the 62 weeks. Why should there be a gap between the 69th week and the 70th week? It makes sense to me that the prophetic calender stopped when Messiah was cut of after the 69th week and into the 70th week. That is a huge reason for God to stop the prophetic time.”
Again Vic, you can’t have it both ways…….you have asked why is there a “gap” between the 69th and 70th week? Well why are you then putting a gap between the the time when the Messiah was cut off – going into the 70th week, and leaving 42 months? So the question would be how much of the 70th week did He go into? Honestly, with with all due respect, that makes no sense to me, as you cannot account for how much time He went “into the 70th week” as you put it – after all we do know that He was resurrected.
Finally, you mention this:
Oh, before I forget Mr B, you said that you don’t see the 70th week divided into two halves. If so, why are the book of Revelation only mentioning half a week. 42 months, 3.5 years, 1260 days. This is even mentioned in Daniel. There is only one place in the Bible were there is mentioned made of 7 years, and that is in Dan 9:27. I would rather say that the Bible is clear that there is only 3.5 years left after the stopping of sacrifice/AoD. There is very little evidence of a final 7 year period.
First let me say again, that no I do not believe that the 70th week is divided into two halves. When looking at End Time Prophecy, we cannnot limit it to a few verses, and make doctrine on it. We have to look at the entire bible. If you go back to the very foundation of what this topic is about – which is Daniel 9:24-27 you will see that there is a final 7 year period. I believe what throws people off is the “week” that is mentioned concerning the Antichrist in 9:27 – but the entire 70 weeks are initially mentioned in Daniel 9:24. I believe that both periods overlap. All of the time has to be accounted for – and not just 42 months that other parts of Scripture has mentioned. Scripture actually mentions more than 3.5 years after the A0D, as you have plainly included the Millennial Reign of Christ, the rebellion has to be included, and the time that Satan is let loose from prison – otherwise the requirements of Daniel 9:24 will not have been met.
So, in closing…..the time that the Antichrist confirms the Covenant with Many may only serve as a “marker” to let us know that the A0D is near. Then the 70th week starts. If we’re going to “stop the prophetic clock” then it has to make sense, and include all of the time indicated.
Don’t spare my feelings as well. I’m not dogmatic about anything as well….just trying to learn. Amen?
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I’m sorry I haven’t answered folks….my computer caught a virus and had may neighbor fix it….just got it back.
Good to see so much positive feedback….i will respond more when I can get these all read and have time to answer them ok/
be patient too…you know I type like a snail 🙂
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So Shortie can we call you salty as well then ?
Sorry couldn’t resist…it’s good to laugh . Have had a tough few days of trying to gain a deeper understanding …my brain hurts 🙂
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Hi Mr B
Okay, let me try to explain, by saying we only need one day to include the millennium reign does not mean that I am not aware 1290 and 1335 day periods mentioned in Dan 12:11-12. This is outside the 42 week/1260 days period, so it can be part of the millennium reign and the short season.
I will be dead honest with you that I really fail to understand why there must be 1290 and 1335 days AFTER the return of Christ. Let’s have a look at Dan 12:11-12:
“And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.”
Now according to Jesus this event we call the AoD will start the tribulation and with it, the antichrist rule. Now if you are correct and this event starts of the 70th week, will there be 1335 days left after Armageddon? But those 1335 days will be a thousand years? Does that not still split the 70th week into two parts, a 42 week tribulation period and a 42 week + extra day’s millennium reign?
Now let me remind you of your words: “First let me say again, that no I do not believe that the 70th week is divided into two halves.”
You see, whatever you do, you will not ever get the 70th week equal to 2520 x 24 hour days. There will have to be a split in it. It may be continues, but there will still be a split. My theory states that Jesus fulfilled the first 42 months, the second 42 months will be the AC rule and the extra days will run into the millennium reign for the requirements of Dan 9:24. These extra days may only come into play when satan is let loose for a short season. You say that the AC will start the 70th week, 42 months later Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives and usher in the millennium reign. Then we have 42 months and 75 days left that will last for a thousand years. So whatever we do, we will not get to 2520 x 24 hour days as the previous 69 weeks were timed to perfection. So there will be a day when the sun rises and the 1290 days flows into 1000 years. The 70th week is divided into two halves by both theories.
You said: Honestly, with all due respect, that makes no sense to me, as you cannot account for how much time He went “into the 70th week” as you put it
Okay, here we have to go to hystorical records that says Jesus were 30 years old when He began His public ministry with His baptism and was crucified 3.5 years later at age 33. Unfortunatly there are no Scriptural proof, but if hystory is correct, Jesus may have fulfilled the first 3.5 years of the 70th week before He was cut of after 62 weeks, fulfilling the requirements of Dan 9:26. You see, the clue is the word “AFTER”. Jesus was not cut of on the last day of the 69th week. He was cut of AFTER the 69th week. Is there any indication in the Bible that says that the 70th week did not start directly after the 69th week? The only reason that I can see for the prophetic clock to have stopped is because of the cutting of of the Messiah. If He was cut of on the last day of the 69th week, then I understand there will be a full 70th week left. But if He was born in the 69th week, was babptised on the first day of the 70th week ansd cut of 42 months into the 70th week, the 42 months of Daniel and Revelation makes sense.
And yes, we are just learning. Understanding can change as God give us more light from His Word. So hit me with your best shot Brother! J
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Wickus wrote to B…… “You said: Honestly, with all due respect, that makes no sense to me, as you cannot account for how much time He went ”into the 70th week” as you put it
Okay, here we have to go to hystorical records that says Jesus were 30 years old when He began His public ministry with His baptism and was crucified 3.5 years later at age 33. Unfortunatly there are no Scriptural proof, but if hystory is correct, Jesus may have fulfilled the first 3.5 years of the 70th week before He was cut of after 62 weeks, fulfilling the requirements of Dan 9:26. ”
http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=60748
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Check this link Mr. B.
I need to post in separate windows because i have near zero movement in the posting window…my post come in pieces now:(…..Take a Good look at the above link….why did Jesus mention the 3.5 years in a Parabolic example of his ministry? Add to this the extant historical and Biblical record and we are given Very strong evidence that Christ’s ministry was in Fact 3.5 years.
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Hi HO1,
I’m having real trouble with using my posting window so some of it gets out of order or incomplete. I’m going to try to answer your questions in a “word association or idea association” kind of way to keep my answers short and you can connect the dots.
Joshua and Zerubabal,candlesticks,messengers,annointed,Jew AND Gentile ONE Annointed Messenger IN Christ….Elijah and John the Baptist….ONE Message….Christ”ONE MESSAGE”.
A Body though hast PREPARED for Me……..His Body first 3.5/His Body last 3.5/ONE BODY/ONE sacrifice/One offering/One Agreement/One household of Faith/the FAITH…OF…Christ………that BELIEVES……..The Father and DOES His Will.
A FAITHFUL Body…..A PURE Sacrifice……ONE……TRUE…..TESTIMONY…….JEW and GENTILE.
God has incude and Not
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God has included and not excluded or replaced Israel, he has made us ONE VOICE…..ONE Messenger………..One Widow and One Naman…..TOGETHER….TO….RECIEVE the Father’s Mercy….TOGETHER.
By His Covenant that He has Divided by TWO Visitations he Makes the Widow and Naman ONE IN Him.
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Mr Short, you are welcome to mail me a long comment then I can post it under your name as soon as possible. I will not mind.
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Ok …I’ll do that when I get some good time spot
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Wickus…..let me first say LOL @ “hit me with your best shot”.
Again…..I will say that the 70th week is NOT divided into halves. Your comments prove my point Brother. The prophetic time clock did stop when Messiah was cut off – AFTER the 69th week. Scripture indicates that. To indicate anything else would be to “read into” what Scripture has provided – not historical documents that you seem to rely on.
Now let me show you were you have failed to read my time line.
You see you have admittedly stated that you do not understand the 1,290 days and 1,335 days respectively. Thank you for your candor Brother, now let me break it down to you. You see if you have the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away AND the A0D is set up – then you have 1, 290 days from that point. During this time period the Antichrist will have ruled and persecuted the Saints for 1,260 days of that same time period. 45 days from that time period to reach 1,335 – This could be the time that is so bad that “no flesh will be saved”; or “Great Tribulation” (no where is there written in Scripture how long “great tribulation” lasts – only that there will be, or no one would live). Those who reach day 1,335 who are in Christ, join in the Millennial Reign of Christ at the Sheep and Goats Judgement. This is a 1,000 year period that is “as one day” on the prophetic time calendar.
After the 1,000 year reign – Satan is let loose to deceive the Nations for a “short season”. This short season “may be” for 1185 days. Wickus …..this my friend is a continuous time period that has NO HALVES. 1,335 + 1185 = 2520 days, or 70 weeks.
Now hit me with your best shot! LOL
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For the clock to stop on the Last Day of the 69th week, Christ would have needed to be either 1.Born and Crucified on the Last day of the 69th week. Or 2. Be baptised and crusified the Last Day of the 69th week. Or 3. Enter Jerusalem hailed as King of the jews and be cricified the Last Day of the 69th week.
text says 69 weeks (62+7)Until messiah……THEN………..AFTER………He shall be Cut Off.
It is not a natural read to assume that the “until Messiah” and the afterwords “cut off” be refering to the same SAME DAY and SAME EVENT.
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you 3 all have powerful arguments!
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Thanks for that explanation Shorty………….you prove my point as well. And for the record, I believe that Scripture supports that the 69th week ended at His triumphal entry, and subsequent crucifixion. He was crucified just only days later after the Jews hailed: “Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord”. Then being “cut off” by crucifixion, only a few days later, as indicated in Daniel 9:26. This fulfills Scripture exactly.
So in my very humble opinion, He did not fulfill any part of the remaining week – even though some want to include His earthly ministry as part of this. I see no Scriptural evidence to support this theory.
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Shortribber thank-you for the clarification.
You said :
“Hi HO1,
I’m having real trouble with using my posting window so some of it gets out of order or incomplete. I’m going to try to answer your questions in a “word association or idea association” kind of way to keep my answers short and you can connect the dots.
Joshua and Zerubabal,candlesticks,messengers,annointed,Jew AND Gentile ONE Annointed Messenger IN Christ….Elijah and John the Baptist….ONE Message….Christ”ONE MESSAGE”.
A Body though hast PREPARED for Me……..His Body first 3.5/His Body last 3.5/ONE BODY/ONE sacrifice/One offering/One Agreement/One household of Faith/the FAITH…OF…Christ………that BELIEVES……..The Father and DOES His Will.
A FAITHFUL Body…..A PURE Sacrifice……ONE……TRUE…..TESTIMONY…….JEW and GENTILE.
God has included and not excluded or replaced Israel, he has made us ONE VOICE…..ONE Messenger………..One Widow and One Naman…..TOGETHER….TO….RECIEVE the Father’s Mercy….TOGETHER.
By His Covenant that He has Divided by TWO Visitations he Makes the Widow and Naman ONE IN Him.”
After going to the link you provided I came to the conclusion that this is your conviction yes and needed you to clarify that by stating that WE HAVE NOT replaced Israel lest it be misunderstood 🙂
Okay next, Who is Naman?
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HO1,
Go to the link and see the meaning of Naman’s name.
In “short”…there i go again…LOL! It means…”pleasing…agreeing…agreed…to please”
This is what we do when we Repent and agree in Covenant with God.
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Not an expert on this but I’ve heard it argued that Christ’s triumphal entry into Jerusalem came exactly 483 years (69×7 x360 day years) after the decree of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem (Nehemiah 2:1-8) 20th year of Artaxerxes reign, in the month of Nisan, 445 BC. That would seem to suggest that the 69th week ended with the triumphal entry, and while the crucifixion wasn’t on the same day it certainly was in the same year (within a week) really an insignifcant time difference when measured against weeks of years. When a day of a week of years = 1 year I have a hard time discounting a time period as “not the last day of the week” when the prophetic time periods we’ve been referring to have been all years, and not days. I’m open to hearing other arguments, but so far I’m somewhat skeptical of the theory like Mr. Baldy.
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Hi mr. B,
So then you think it is choice number 3. The problem is ,as I said Christ was not Cricified the Same Day…….”few days” Later or not….these did not occur on the Same Day.
nad yes there is scriptural evidence….I’ve shown it in the link if you will slowly and carfully read it.
Why, at the VERY BEGINNING of Christ’s ministry did he come straight out of His fast in the wilderness and read out of Issiah and say “this day” is this fullfilled in your ears”?
Why did He mention the 3.5 years? Why? just a good number to mention from history, or did he not indicate he would in fact Minister 3.5 Years?
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Thanks Justasheep…….
Not only am I skeptical of that theory – it really makes a lot of assumptions, and takes a lot of “reading into” in order for it to work.
I think that the evidence is clear that the 69th week did end with the triumphal entry, and within days that the crucifixion happened. You make an excellent point as well when you mention that a few days is an insignificant time difference when measured against weeks of years. Let me add that, if one were to read Daniel 9:26 it states that “After” the 69 weeks He shall be cut off – this is a fulfillment of Prophecy. not that it means that it is an inclusive part to the weeks of years.
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honestly all this swirls in my head-it is like i picture a half of something still to go and a full yet to complete! actually it is like it all parallels together to be both in my mind somehow—am i a bit silly??? (probably that) or does God explain some things in ways that are just over the hill beyond finding out just before things are to happen? (keeping us on that need to know basis when He deems necessary) ??? personally i cannot say anyone-including me-is either right or wrong because all we need is more Light and God will show us all we need to know at the right time–that is–if we are people who are actually watching. i pray more and more folks Wake up and Watch!!! so i’ll keep on reading what you fine folks post and pray for Light like i know yall do too.
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Shortribber allow me to share why this is causing me sleepless nights and why I believe the Lord is not releasing me from the burden I feel.
Over the past two weeks I have agonized in prayer as the Holy Spirit keeps on leading me back to some pretty difficult scriptures that He has led me to in the past yet did NOT get the full meaning of them…until now.I wrestled with trying to understand these with ONLY the anointing of the Holy Spirit being my guide and was blown away at how in ONE DAY He affirmed three of the five spiritual stones He gave me back in July 2011.For the life of me I couldn’t understand how these all would fit together but do now.
If the Lord is preparing us for the soon AOD event and the “trigger ” that set’s off the last 42 month period then I rest and abide in the Sovereignty of Him that the Lord will give us the understanding and the UNITY of the faith as He leads and guides us by His precious Holy Spirit. He has promised and is faithful in doing it. The calling out , separating, purging and setting apart has been going on for quite some time now and boy does He WORD NOT RETURN void either!
Isa 41:7 — So the carpenter encouraged the goldsmith, and he that smootheth with the hammer him that smote the anvil, saying, It is ready for the sodering: and he fastened it with nails, that it should not be moved.
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And you call THAT your best shot? LoL! I had a good laugh, thanks Brother B.
Okay, so you agree that Messiah was cut off AFTER the 69th week. Brother Short already explained it, but let me go the extra mile. 🙂
Lets say the 69th week ended on 31 Dec 00. Now the text says that AFTER the 69th week Messiah will be cut off. What date will qualify as AFTER? Yup, any day from 1 Jan 01. So what happens on 1 Jan 01? Yup, it is the first day of the 70th week. So did the Messiah enter the 70th week? Yup again, as He must be cut of AFTER the 69th week. Can we find any proof in Scripture that the 70th week did not follow directly after the 69th week? Nope, not at all. But was the 70th week completed at that time? Nope, as the 70th week must include the reign of the future AC for 42 months, the return of Jesus as the Messiah for the Jews and it will stretch to the end of the millennium. So, simple logic tells us that the Messiah had to enter the 70th week, due to the word “AFTER” that is present in the text. If He was cut of after one day only, we still will not have a complete 7 year period left, but there will be one day short. But because of historical records and the Bible being very specific about a future 42 month event, the conclusion can be made that history can be correct about the 3.5 years ministry of Jesus up to His crucifiction and the same amount of future time is left.
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Mr Short, I am guilty of not reading the link yet. I will do it now.
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Sorry for the typo’s and mistakes ,…trying to figure out this small keyboard 😦
Thank-you all for the agape love.
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Comment by Shorttribber:
Here’s another interesting example to show a split in the Confirmation with many……..beginning with the Anointing of Christ and the start of His public ministry
Luke 4
18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he………. hath anointed……… me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the ………..acceptable………. year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and ……….sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, ……….This day………. is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph’s son?
23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.
24 And he said, Verily I say unto you,……………. No prophet is accepted ……………in his own country.
25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up ………..three years and six months,……………… when great famine was throughout all the land;
26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto ……….Sarepta,…….. [a city] of Sidon, unto a woman [that was] a widow.
27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving ………….Naaman……….. the Syrian.
Mal 3
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the ……..messenger of the covenant,……….. whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
3 And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Why does Christ mention the three and a half years the heavens were ….shut up? A reference to the timespan of His first appearing.
Why does Christ mention Sarepta? it was a city known for it’s refiner’s of silver
Why does Christ mention Naaman? It means agreement or agreeable and also (pleasing or pleasant)…….this is what is done when covenant is made….Naaman also agreed to not offer to Idols any longer but only sacrifice to the true God.
see the connection?
shorttribber
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Ahhh Shortriber , so let me see if I understand this correctly. The operative word in this scripture here is ….”save unto”…aka ” only” right? Rhetorical 🙂
I praise God that even though many of us have been cast out because our refusal to bend the knee to the modern day ” Baal’s” this promise in His word is not only 100% true but boy have we ever witnessed the last twelve words-persoanlly.That gives me the assurance that the battle is the Lord’s and great is His faithfulness.
Isa 66:5 — Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name’s sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
We ain’t seen nutin yet it seems!
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No, we ain’t…..but soon I think.
I’m not sure what eleven words you’re referencing…sorry bout that.
“He shall appear to your joy and they shall be ashamed”? this one is what I was thinking you’re talking about….it’s a dandy promise!
Save unto……….the obiedient/faithful……..remnent…..of Israel.
And none cleansed but humble repentant Gentiles.
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vic (i know you are familiar) remember in the harbinger that it talks about the shemita? that (one remaining with 69 complete) 7 year period for seventy sabbaths-how he drew the parallel from ancient israel and modern america as a big time end time player making everything “shake”? america’s pres obama (especially) has set this country on a collision course that will have global repercussions. in observing shemita-if obedient would be a blessing and if not became a curse? well it is noteworthy that we are approaching the 3 1/2 year point-at the end of march 2012-from when (messianic) rabbi cahn speaks of the “shaking”—(remember that he made special note of the largest dow drop in history (777.68) happening on that jewish new year in 2008? and it’s impact on the world market?)—i think it’s timing is significant to what is happening this year-this spring–plus—middle east war will most definitely “shake” everything-economically as well as militarily. i kinda lean toward the aod as a bigger sign and upcoming event in the very near future (because there has been no repentance in america or anywhere else frankly) proving that what is being decided right now by the politicos (particularily regarding israel) is bringing on another “shaking” for the last half (3 1/2 yrs) of the shemita time (like a debt coming due on the americas’ & the world’s books so to speak). i’m just thinking out loud here but is it possible that the last “7” is already occurring and about to mid-point or this is just another sign that the entire “week” is occurring but just not at mid-point yet? i tend to go pre-wrath in my thinking because i think of the remaining 70th week more as a marker but not the actual timepiece to go by (but no doubt in hindsight it’s timing will fit perfectly in all this. the aod is more what i think must be looked for instead–all eyes on israel—the pressure is becoming extreme for something—–involving many somebody’s now! the global march on jerusalem by the “occupy” people is scheduled for the same timeframe as the halfway point of the shemita too. so just like the enp-though still in play (fits in here most definitely) but is not the timepiece we thought it might be. it plays a part and it’s timing important but not the sign itself (and we europe is leaderless). this is what i mean when i see many parallels in play all at the same time. maybe all these happenings combined are what we must look at more closely. thanks for bearing with me in what i’m posting as i pray and look into these things too-personally needing much more understanding. blessing to all—i am thanking God for all the careful and insightful-prayerful and knowledgeable-posts presented by my brothers and sisters here.
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Awesome promise yes……” but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.!”
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How i read eleven instead of twelve is beyond me….least i picked right, LOL!
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Vic I understand completely what you and Shorty are trying to communicate. I just don’t buy it.
If the 69th week ended at His triumphal entry and crucifixion, then that’s where it ended. There is no Scriptural evidence that the 70th week immediately started after this. There is also no evidence that His 3.5 year ministry was any part of this same final week as well.
At some point, according to your 3.5 year Jesus fulfilled a part of the 70th week theory – you have to get into the 70th week. Jesus didn’t minister for 3.5 years after He was crucified, and resurrected. No, He ascended to Heaven.
What you guys are trying to do is add the 3.5 year period that He ministered to the 70th week, and the 70th week hadn’t even started yet. The week can’t be fulfilled if it hadn’t even started yet. Then you attempt to say that He went into the 70th week because the 69th ended AFTER he was cut off – and you further state that because of this, only 3.5 years remain of the final week. This makes no sense to me. You guys can’t have it both ways….either the 70th week was fully completed or it was not. You can’t break it up into the pieces that you want, in order to fit your eschatological view. I don’t believe that Scripture can support that the final week is split into two equal halves either. Daniel 12:11-12 dispels that.
In closing, I don’t believe that any part of the 70th week has been completed – it is yet future, and when it is initiated, it will run its full course.
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Mr B,
We are not trying to have it two ways. You are confused in what you claim we are saying.
Mr B said,”Jesus didn’t minister for 3.5 years after He was crucified”.
We never said He did, don’t know where you got that idea.
Mr B said,”Then you attempt to say that He went into the 70th week because the 69th ended AFTER he was cut off “.
We never said any such thing. This is what we say. 69 weeks until Messiah (His Baptism and START of His ministry) His Anointed Task/Ministry BEGAN on the LAST DAY of the 69th week. Then, AFTER the Last DAY of the 69th week His ministry continued until His death on the cross 3.5 years from the start of His ministry……thus fulfilling the FIRST HALF of the seventieth week.
it’s not complicated and VERY soundly supported by scripture,history and sound doctrine.
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Mr B, with all due respect, you really do not understand what I am saying. If you don’t agree with me, thats fine, but please don’t add things I have never said and then accuse me of twisting the Bible. It did not EVER cross my mind that Jesus ministered 3.5 years after His resurrection. That is pure nonsense! Any person who have a vague idea about the life of Jesus will tell you that he ascended to heaven 40 days after the Resurrection.
Well sorry, I can not debate against things did not say. In any way, if the AoD happens in the next few months, none of us will really care if the 70th week just started or if it is midway through. There will be more important issues like surviving the 42 months and trusting the Lord. And many of us will not make it through alive.
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Thanks Mr Short. That is what I have communicated the whole time, but it seems like it is not read that way.
“Jesus ministered 3.5 years after His resurrection before He ascended to Heaven.” Wow! Just WOW!
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Thanks for reminding me of this Andre. I think it is time to watch the videos again. Its just a pity that I can not find the book over here.
Wise words from you, we must look for the AoD instead. If it happens we are going to care less on when the 70th week actually started. And the occupy Jerusalem movement is something to keep in mind and watch for. Israel is the key for understanding prophecy.
Thanks Andre
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Wickus,
First of all, you may want to read what you are writing before you say that I have accussed you of anything. I’ve accused you of absolutely nothing – and certainly not twisting Scripture. I feel that I know you better than that – as you should know me. I feel somewhat offended, but I cannot take it personally, as I know when one has a passion for what they believe, that have a tendency to get a little upset. Second, you may want to double check what you write before you say that I have added anything to what you have written.
Did you not write:
“So did the Messiah enter the 70th week? Yup again, as He must be cut of After the 69th week.”
Now if this isn’t saying that Messiah entered the 70th week, then I don’t know what is.
I may be guilty of not understanding what you have written – but you are guilty as well for not articulating your facts.
Now in reading the articulated facts by Shorty, I still am in total disagreement with your 3.5 year theory – and what you have explained. Shorty’s comments are very confusing, and not very well articulated as well. What makes no sense to me – (the way that I am understanding what you have written) is that you want to reach back over to the point of His ministry; grab a few years to indicate that from the time of His ministry to His death totalled 3.5 years by concluding – and/or implying that this actually entered the 70th week by fulfilling 3.5 years of it.
Nonsense!
And Wickus, I know you got a bit heated…but I still luv ya Brother! Just articulate your facts (you and Shorty both) so that a layman like me can understand what you are attempting to communicate.
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Mr Baldy
First of all I want to make it clear that I do not take it personally. You are a brother and a friend in Christ and that is how I want it to stay. I am sorry if I did offend you. It is surely not intended. I have realized many times how a written post can be read by someone to mean something very different, and I am sure this is what happened here.
Let me explain; I did write that the Messiah entered the 70th week. You interpreted it that I meant He entered the 70th week after His Resurrection. That is utter foolishness and we both know it. What I meant is that the Messiah entered the 70th week at His baptism, following 3.5 years of public ministry. If we had to discuss this over a cuppa coffee, we would have immediately seen the error in interpretation.
I think this discussion is getting to long and the thoughts as presented in the original post by myself has been long forgotten. When I am referring to Jesus entering the 70th week, I am referring to my thoughts presented in the OP that He entered the week when starting His public ministry. I have never changed my thoughts on that.
But in the end, it will not matter who is right and who is wrong. We are all waiting for the AoD and stopping of sacrifice. After that event there will be 42 months that includes the tribulation and the MoB. Then, when we see Jesus, we can ask him how the 70th weeks timing worked and when it started. And I’ve got an idea that we both are going to have some mistakes in our interpretations.
And yes, I did get a little heated. But I also love you Brother. So lets start the next debate. 🙂
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Mr. B….For the sake of clarity I’ll repost this:
” This is what we say. 69 weeks until Messiah (His Baptism and START of His ministry) His Anointed Task/Ministry BEGAN on the LAST DAY of the 69th week. Then, AFTER the Last DAY of the 69th week His ministry continued until His death on the cross 3.5 years from the start of His ministry……thus fulfilling the FIRST HALF of the seventieth week.”
The above explaination is,”Nonsense!”, and not well explained. It’s possible for it to be better explained i’m sure but it is not “Nonsense”.
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Wickus, and Shorty then by all means explain it better!
But please don’t send a confusing message to those of us who are looking for the Truth. Wickus…I never said that you meant anything other than what you wrote, and I did not mean after His resurrection either. Even yet, you still seem to indicate this point of view, in that you state this: “that the Messiah entered the 70th week at His baptism, following 3.5 years of public ministry”.
Oh man of God..this is crazy thinking.
I’m sure you can see the erroneousness, and the complete utter contradiction in the message that you both have sent.
In closing…..to both Shorty and you my dear Brother Wickus, please don’t fall for any other doctrine preached other than what has been presented by those who have the Holy Spirit inspired by Love and Truth. To say that Jesus ministry started at his Baptism – “then it began on the LAST DAY of the 69th week – then AFTER the Last Day of the 69th week His ministry continued until his death on the cross 3.5 year from the start of His ministry ……thus fulfilling the FIRST HALF of the seventieth week” Man…WOAAH!!!
If this isn’t a bunch of double talk – then I don’t know what is.
Wickus, I have supported you since you were a member of another site. If you want to kick me off your site, then please feel free to do so. But I will not, and do not agree with this confusing NONSENSE. I still love you man…and I will pray that you don’t let every sounding wind, or doctrine that sounds good come into your imagination as being the Truth. Please keep me in prayer, as I move on.
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Mr.B…….said…… “Even yet, you still seem to indicate this point of view, in that you state this: “that the Messiah entered the 70th week at His baptism, following 3.5 years of public ministry”.
BUT…….this is what I said….” His Anointed Task/Ministry BEGAN on the LAST DAY of the 69th week. Then, AFTER the Last DAY of the 69th week His ministry continued until His death on the cross 3.5 years from the start of His ministry……thus fulfilling the FIRST HALF of the seventieth week.”
I can not understand why you continue to misunderstand what is being said. do you reaslize that what you believe was basicly unheard of before about the mid 1800’s?
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I’m still not following this – so when did the first week of the seventy begin?
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Apparently 2020.
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mr Baldy, would you be so kind, if it is possible, to put the way you see it in an clear email to me? because I would like to study this more. I thing both theorys sounds like .. they’r sound! both are possible, so I am waiting for your answer, bro!
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let me try this.
69th week ends the SAME DAY Jesus is baptised.
Jesus begins His ministry on the SAME DAY.
He enters the 70th week immediatly AFTER that on the VERY NEXT DAY.
He then ministers for 3.5 years and is Cut Off exactly half way through the 70th week.
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but for the prophecy to be fulfilled by jesus in the 69th week it had to start in some week when the word was given to rebuild Jerusalem. When was that?
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What do you mean,”IN” the 69th week? He was baptised the LAST DAY of the 69th week and ministered for the first 3.5 of the 70th week.
No. from the “Commandment to build”ect. would be 7+62=69 weeks until Messiah the Prince.
“Until Messiah the prince” refers to His baptism…….the Time of His Annointing to begin His ministry.
I think the commandment to build was in 483 BC…can’t remember for sure right now but do believe that is correct.
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Gentlemen, and Ladies……..I offer my very sincere apology to any of you that I have offended. I mean that from my heart.
I really felt that both Shorty and Wickus were sending confusing information – but now that Shorty has made a better articulation of the facts that he presents, I can see where the confusion came in on my part. I still don’t agree with them (in love), as there is no evidence that Christ was “baptised the LAST DAY of the 69th week”. And although I believe that He did minister for 3.5 years – Scripture doesn’t indicate that He actually went into the 70th week with His ministry, in my most sincere humble opinion.
Now, this has caused me to go and search the Scriptures for myself to understand the meaning. After searching the Scriptures, I found Luke 19:38-44……which reads:
38) “Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!”
“Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”
39) Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples!”
40) “I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”
41) As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42) and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43) The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44) They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”
The aforementioned passages of Scriptures is “The Triumphal Entry.” This is the “Day of Visitation” – or until Messiah the Prince (Daniel 9:25) – the crowd hailed Jesus as Messiah. (Also indicated in Matthew 21:1-9) This day, according to Scripture was exactly 483 years after the decree of Artaxerxes in Daniel 9:24-26.
After the 69th week or 483 years – which was literally days later, Christ was crucified, or “cut off”, just as Scripture indicates.
So the confusion came in where it is indicated that until the “Anointed One” comes there will be 69 weeks, (Daniel 9:25) and after the 69 weeks he will be “cut off” or crucified (Daniel 9:26). It’s the same week. He was “hailed “at the Triumphal Entry in the 69th week, and “cut off” after the 69th week ended – which fulfills Scripture.
The 69th week ended at the Triumphal Entry. So we still have a final week left, or 7 years – in my very humble opinion.
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Hi Mr B,
Thankyou so much for your wonderful apology. I happily and fully receive it with all my sincere love brother.
i’m so thankful That the words could be arranged in such a way as for you to understand it.
It is clear to me that you place a great amount of weight on the idea that the calculation of years from the “Decree to Build ect” in 483 BC works out to EXACTLY the DAY the Jesus entered Jerusalem on the donkey: but please read the following, those calculations were in fact not accurate……please read this post I copied from FP.
Report this postReply with quoteRe: The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit, Not Michael the Archangel
by watching on Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:31 pm
Hi Benny,
I’m not good at starting new threads, so maybe one of the moderators could split this one.
Actually, I had tried to answer the below question earlier, when my computer starting acting up. (That was actually part of the reason for my frustration, because I had lost everything that I had typed.)
benny belario wrote:
That is incorrect….my studies reveal that from the going forth to rebuild Jerusalem unto the cutting of Messiah added up to 483 years to the exact day.
Actually, the “popular teaching” that Sir Robert Andersons calculations work out to the EXACT DAY of Palm Sunday
is simply not true.
In fact, I had actually repeated this “remarkable” teaching myself, at least once. But then one day, I thought to myself, that maybe I should check out the math first, to make sure it’s true, before I go around repeating it.
That’s when I realized that there was no way for me to check out the math, because it would require high tech equipment that could factor in leap years, as well as adjust for various calendar changes, such as Julian to Gregorian, etc., among other things.
There are others, however, who have made the calculations and have found them to be inaccurate.
And, unfortunately, the only way for Sir Robert Anderson’s theory to hold any water is if it were, in fact, accurate to the day, which it’s not. Because that would be the ONLY WAY that someone could claim that the time of the cutting off of the Messiah, is actually the time of His coming, instead.
Even Sir Robert Anderson, himself, knew that his calculations were not accurate.
In fact, since you seem to like David Reagan, you might be interested in what he had to say about it.
The second problem with Anderson’s calculations is their terminus date of 32 A.D. This just simply is not an acceptable year for the death of Jesus since it would place the crucifixion on either Sunday or Monday. Even Anderson recognized this problem, and as one author has put it, Anderson engaged in some “mathematical gymnastics” to arrive at a Friday crucifixion.
In his book, Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ, Harold Hoehner of Dallas Theological Seminary shifts the date of Nehemiah’s decree from 445 to 444 B.C. and then calculates the 173,880 days to the spring of 33 A.D., when the crucifixion would have fallen on a Friday. But this creates more problems than it solves. The 444 B.C. date is suspect and the 33 A.D. date is very late. Luke 3:23 says Jesus was “about 30 years of age” when He began His ministry. His ministry lasted 3½ years. Hoehner’s chronology would make Jesus 32 years old at the start of His ministry and 35 at the time of his death.
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/reagan/dr31.html
There is, however, a formula that does work.
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Hi again Mr.B,
here is an alternate calculation from the rapture ready link I provided from above:
I believe a better solution is to interpret Daniel’s prophecy as speaking of lunar years adjusted periodically and thus amounting to regular years. I also believe that the best starting point for the prophecy is the decree issued to Ezra in 457 B.C.
I have already explained why I believe regular years should be used. Let me now explain why I think the decree issued to Ezra should be used as the starting point for the calculation of the first two periods totaling 483 years.
The decree given to Zerubbabel authorized the rebuilding of the Temple. The decree issued to Nehemiah concerned the rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem. Ezra’s decree was more general in nature, covering a variety of subjects. But we know from Scripture that he interpreted it to mean that the Jews were authorized to launch a general rebuilding campaign that included the temple, the city, and the walls. His interpretation is stated in Ezra 9:9 — “God has not forsaken us, but has extended loving kindness to us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us reviving to raise up the house of our God, to restore its ruins, and to give us a wall in Judah and Jerusalem” (Ezra 9:9).
Now, using Ezra’s decree as the staring point (457 B.C.), if we count forward 483 years we will arrive at 27 A.D. (There is only one year between 1 B.C. and 1 A.D.) According to the translator of Josephus, the Jewish new year that began in the fall of 27 A.D. marked the beginning of the last Jubilee Year that the Jews enjoyed in the land before their worldwide dispersal by the Romans in 70 A.D. This is most likely the year that Jesus began His public ministry. This is hinted at in Luke 4 where it says that when Jesus launched His ministry at the synagogue in Nazareth, He did so by reading a passage from Isaiah 61 about the way in which the Messiah would fulfill the spiritual essence of the Jubilee. After finishing the reading, Jesus proclaimed, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing” (Luke 4:21).
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Thank you Shortribber, I’m still not sure whether I agree or not. Thank you for answering the question in a very thorough manner. I’m still of the mind that it may not ultimately matter (except of course it DOES matter that all prophecy is perfectly fulfilled) since we are still looking for the same events to occur in the future (ie the taking of the sacrifice, the two witnesses, the AoD etc). If you are right then the timeline is far more compressed, which I think is actually good news. The less time the enemy has to execute his final havoc in the world, the better. The less time before we are taken home, the better.
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Amen JAS7,
It’s just that in believing as i do gives the body more hope and encouragement, depending in part on the depth of personal devotion and faith of the individual Christian.
This is not to knock any who hold different views than me, i know that devotion and faith has No baring on what we believe to be true about end time prophecy, let me restate that for emphasis, No baring What So Ever.
Hope and Encouragement, I say, because IF what I believe to be true comes to pass then Eph 4:10-16 and Rev 12: 10 & 11. will come to pass and be Wonderfully and Powerfully fulfilled Very Soon.
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I realize now the year of command to build was not 483..that was the Amount of years till Messiah…I couldn’t go back in and edit…….I hope I’ve not caused any confusion to anyone…sorry bout that 😦
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Eph 4: 10-16 I expect to be fulfilled BEFORE the gathering to Christ…and this is what fulfills the words “without Spot of Wrinkle or Any Such Thing”.
And Rev 12: 10 & 11 along with the above ref. from Ephesians will be the result of the SECOND HALF of the Confirmation of The Covenant with MANY.
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We love you Mr B and need you to know how much we appreciate and respect your tenacity , love for truth and your refusal to compromise . If I didn’t know any better I would think ye were a “Dutchie” like some of us here 🙂 or could it be that Italian? ….LOL
Ok nuff of that nonsense I need to share a little testimony. Over the past few months I’ve witnessed the power of ” when two or more and gathered in my name” as we seek the Lord in prayer and supplication only to WITNESS the ” agreeing” part be confirmed almost right away. It has become so powerful that as I said to our prayer partner last night, ” I’m almost too afraid to ask” LOL – just kiddin people!!
When the Lord gave me those five spiritual stones back in July 2011, ( of which Shortribber has confirmed four ) I had no idea just powerful they were until I put them to practise in FAITH. The most powerful testimony was that it has NOTHING to do with us but the Lord who was working through His WORD – through His vessels of mercy!
So reflecting on the scriptures you quoted Shortribber would you mind if I ask you a few questions that I’ve personally wrestled with in much prayer over the past few weeks?
Also please note as Christ is my witness I’ve only just read your thoughts on FP and was not influenced by this in my ” burden prayer” and seeking the Lord for answers. You have given us a general overview of your conviction but would really appreciate it if you could clarify these in a more condensed way. You know point for point , simple and organized 🙂
Thank-you all for the UNITY of the faith and the LOVE born from above 🙂
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Amen Hisown!
Shorty I have read the comments in the link that you have provided, and before I get too deep into this, with my comments, I would like for you to do a break down analysis as well (If you don’t mind) – as there still appears to be a 7 future fulfillment.
Thanking you in advance as well!
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This scripture just took on a new meaning for me this morning.
Christ gave us the perfect example of His three and a half year ministry and the tools to overcome in our’s 🙂
By His WORD.
By His BLOOD.
By His RESURRECTION.
By our TESTIMONY.
By not loving our lives till death.
Phl 3:10 — That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
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Fellowship…………..Ahhhhhhhh………..Key to number FIVE i think.
More later…..working hard in shop now…….thanx for the encouraging words…..both of you:)
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Shorty,
As you get the time to put your analysis together on the 70th week, I’m just curious to know who you believe that the “he” is referring to in Daniel 9:27.
Thank you
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I believe the “he” is Christ , and it is he that caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease, by the offering up of Himself on the cross.
And the offering did “cease” technically/spiritually immediately when the Vail of the temple was rent upon His death, and literally in 70AD (that year including the today 2012, we are STILL IN the “midst” of the week).
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I thought so.
This is why I have asked you to lay out your format as far as the 70th week is concerned. I believe that Hisown, has asked for this as well. It’s not that I am personally trying to dispute your theory, it’s just that I am trying to gain understanding. Perhaps there is something more that I and others need to understand.
There is a Truth out there, and one that reasons well with End Time Prophecy. So far, I have found holes in every last one of them – to include the understanding that I think that I have come to as well. So I certainly welcome anyone who has insight, and can aide in my understanding.
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My computer is really having trouble….my entire outline is at Fulfilled Prophecy on the third page of the Debate section…called “Shorttrib/prewrath”.
It’s going to provide you with the most information you’re seeking
I’ll try to answer questions as you ask them after you read it through carefully. I got to get my computer working right
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computer’s up.
Ask any questions Mr. B.
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I have one question for your, can you give me the link of Shorttrib/prewrath I cannot find it..
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ok….here ya go….:)
http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=57088
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